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OfflineAbermelin
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 394
Loc: In The Mycelial Network
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Lets end the DMT notion.
    #4090522 - 04/24/05 02:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Somehow someone got it in their head that adding NNDMT, freebase or hcl, to their substrate would create more potent mushrooms. well, i tended to follow this as a possiblity till i found this article posted in the main section of the shroomery's information section.

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/24373

Quote:

Tryptophan is decarboxylated via an enzyme called tryptophan decarboxylase to form tryptamine. This is the last major step in the pathway that is significantly inhibited by a self-feedback downregulation mechanism, meaning that if too much of a particular substance is in the cells the enzyme will stop converting tryptophan to tryptamine. Here is a list of some inhibitors of tryptophan decarboxylase




there is a chart listed below it, but it doesnt copy/paste very well, so ill point out this one important note.

-Inhibition of Tryptophan Decarboxylase-

Type of inhibition: Competitive Inhibitors
Inhibitor: N,N-dimethyltryptamine
Inhibition %: 65


NNDMT, the DMT found in most ayahuasca plants, particularly mimosa hostilis, is in fact an inhibitor of the enyzyme tryptophan decarboxylase which creates the tryptamines necessary in the production of psilocin + psilocybin.

However if you look at the bottom of the chart, it is posted that 5Meo DMT is "non-inhibitor", which doesnt necessarily mean its beneficial, but does no harm either.

Now that the myth of NNDMT creating higher potentcy mushrooms has been dispelled, lets put this to rest.

If ive missed something here, please point it out.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4090702 - 04/24/05 04:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The ADDITION of the hydroxyl on the 4 position of DMT (thus making psilocin) isn't DECARBOXYLATION. Jesus freaking C.

Not to mention the fact that we are talking about the hydroxylation of DMT to psilocybin, something that your post doesn't deal with at all.


The pathway for the conversion of tryptamine to psilocybin and psilocin is still unclear, but it is proposed that there are many different steps, since the phosphorylated intermediates baeocystin and norbaeocystin are produced, in addition to psilocybin, which is most likely produced via one phosphorylase enzyme from psilocin. The experiments by Gartz et al. regarding an addition of tryptamine hcl to the substrate showed an increase in psilocin levels compared to psilocybin which suggests the downregulation of a phosphorylase enzyme at this step, and also provides some possible insight to the evolution of psilocybin in mushrooms.


Try that.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


Edited by SoopaX (04/24/05 04:17 AM)


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OfflineAbermelin
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 394
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Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4091126 - 04/24/05 11:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

tryptamine hcl doesnt not equal NNDMT hcl. Notice the difference between the two is the fact that their entirely different chemicals.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4091327 - 04/24/05 01:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see how your original post here is even relevant. Who cares if the DMT is inhibiting the production of tryptamine when there is already DMT? I don't see what the issue is.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4091973 - 04/24/05 05:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yea, thats my point EXACTLY. You aren't talking about the decarboxylation of ANYTHING, noone who is interested in this subject would possibly talk of decarboxylation when turning DMT into psilocin. The issue they are dealing with is the HYDROXYLATION (The ADDITION of HYDROXYL functional group) to the four position of the DMT structuer. This would make 4-HO-DMT. You aren't even comparing apples and oranges, you are comparing metal and water.

The point that people are trying to make, and are supported by such chemists as Shulgin (myself, and Chaung) is that the mycelia of certain mushrooms adds a hydroxyl functional group to any material that it encounters at the 4- position. If this is true, and I know that it's your word against Dr A. Shulgin so it's hard to decide who to go with here, then that would mean that DMT would turn into 4-HO-DMT, which is psilocin (or psilocbyin, depending on the addition of a phosphate ester group on the hydroxyl). You are just so totally lost and confused about this matter it's not even funny.

Also x 2, tryptamine HCl (the proper way to write it, not hcl or HCL as you seem to enjoy doing) isn't THAT different from DMT hcl


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineAbermelin
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 394
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Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4092427 - 04/24/05 07:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If you would read the link in its entirety they detail the steps in psilocybin production.

Phosphoenolpyruvate + erythrose 4-phosphate => Chorismate

Chorismate => Tryptophan

Tryptophan + Tryptophan decarboxylase => Tryptamine

Tryptamine => Psilocin

and once more for the blunt minded fools in the audience.

Quote:

Tryptophan is decarboxylated via an enzyme called tryptophan decarboxylase to form tryptamine. This is the last major step in the pathway that is significantly inhibited by a self-feedback downregulation mechanism, meaning that if too much of a particular substance is in the cells the enzyme will stop converting tryptophan to tryptamine.




Quote:

he pathway for the conversion of tryptamine to psilocybin and psilocin is still unclear, but it is proposed that there are many different steps, since the phosphorylated intermediates baeocystin and norbaeocystin are produced, in addition to psilocybin, which is most likely produced via one phosphorylase enzyme from psilocin.




thats pretty cut and dry to me. NNDMT inhibits the production of psilocin and psilocybin.


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OfflineInterested
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Registered: 11/30/04
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Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4092738 - 04/24/05 09:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

DMT may well inhibit the production of tryptamine. No one is arguing that.

What people are saying is that if the DMT in the subtrate is converted to 4-HO-DMT (which seems reasonable, as mycellium enzymes appear to hydroxylate the 4 position pretty indescriminately) it doesn't _matter_ that tryptamine production is decreased, because 4-HO-DMT will be coming from another source -- namely the DMT -- which will, in theory (and in practice according to the experiments of Gartz) result in far more 4-HO-DMT than would have occurred otherwise.

In short, although tryptamine production may be decreased, it won't matter because you'll have far more tryptamine (or dimethyltryptamine in this case -- the enzymes involved don't care) in the substrate than would have been produced anyway.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4092831 - 04/24/05 09:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Why did you past ME the paragraph that I pasted for you? Interestd states the rest pretty well. You are arguing with J. Garts and Dr Shulgin, you are making a ocmplete ass of yourself, noone believes you. Do as you please.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4093492 - 04/25/05 12:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

so your saying while NNDMT inhibits the tryptamine production that is involved in psilocybin production, it makes up for it in the hydroxolation of NNDMT in the substrate? does it matter if the DMT is in freebase or HCl form?

i guess the question remains whether this is all worth it to get a slight increase in potentcy. Seems to me like your screwing one part of psilocin production and making up the slack and them some in another part of psilocin production.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4093832 - 04/25/05 01:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think that all DMT added to the substrate would be turned into 4-hodmt, now, how much of this would make it into the fruitbodies is up for grabs.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleTeragon
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 36,253
Loc: Lost in the Patterns
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4094167 - 04/25/05 04:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Abermelin said:
If you would read the link in its entirety they detail the steps in psilocybin production.

Phosphoenolpyruvate + erythrose 4-phosphate => Chorismate

Chorismate => Tryptophan

Tryptophan + Tryptophan decarboxylase => Tryptamine

Tryptamine => Psilocin

and once more for the blunt minded fools in the audience.

Quote:

Tryptophan is decarboxylated via an enzyme called tryptophan decarboxylase to form tryptamine. This is the last major step in the pathway that is significantly inhibited by a self-feedback downregulation mechanism, meaning that if too much of a particular substance is in the cells the enzyme will stop converting tryptophan to tryptamine.





thats pretty cut and dry to me. NNDMT inhibits the production of psilocin and psilocybin.





You seemed confused. That last sentence of yours in italics is INCORRECT.

n,n-dimethyltryptamine DOES NOT inhibit the production of psilocin. It inhibits the product of tryptamine from tryptophan via allosteric inhibition of tryptophan decarboxylase.

These excess levels of DMT will indeed inhibit tryptophan decarboxylase, but this DOES NOT MATTER, b/c you are "already passed that step" with all the dimethyltryptamine. you don't need to use tryptophan as the base structure and then decarboxylate it before moving on.

Since you(i.e. the base chem structure- n,n-dmt ) are already passed the "last major step in the pathway that is significantly inhibited by a self-feedback downregulation mechanism," it matters NOT about any inhibition of that step. That step has nothing to do with your reaction which now is only one step.

n,n-DMT ----> 4-hydroxy-n,n-dimethyltryptamine

......(via an enzyme)


or possibly another step if you start with tryptamine additive.


--------------------
need that cash to feed them jones.


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Offlinedumbsnake34
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Registered: 12/14/04
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Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Teragon]
    #4096613 - 04/25/05 08:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Abermelin,

I am sorry that you have been flamed, but you are missing something very important. In your diagram, you show tryptamine getting coverted into psilocin in one step. I think that this might help clear up the misunderstanding.

tryptophan
...|..<- this pathway is controlled by many indoles (DMT, etc..)
..V
tryptamine --> N methyl tryptamine --> DMT
..........|......................|........................|
.........V.....................V.......................V
Norbaeocystin -> Baeocystin ---------> Psilocin <----> Psilocybin

So, as you can see while DMT may inhibit the production of tryptophan, we would rather have DMT than tryptamine anyway, unless our goal is Baeocystin or Norbaeocystin.

Hope that helps. And dude, don't talk like you know what you mean when you don't because it pisses people off then they will flame you for being an idiot, which you are.


--------------------
mmmm, daydreaming


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OfflineAbermelin
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 394
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Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: dumbsnake34]
    #4097234 - 04/25/05 11:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

admins, lock this or delete it. as always, this has turned into a flame session by the kids on the forum.

If you guys are adults, i pity you.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4097641 - 04/26/05 01:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

rofl, you could just run off with your tail between your legs. Or you could admit that you have no idea what you are talking about. Either way, those of us who don't have our heads up our asses know that we were right. I don't think you've impressed anyone.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Offlinebenrules92
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Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: Abermelin]
    #4101897 - 04/27/05 08:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ok I have seen alot of this guys posts and it looks to me like he is just trying to sound smart,,, just ignore him


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: benrules92]
    #4101927 - 04/27/05 09:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yea, done and done.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Invisiblekake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
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Re: Lets end the DMT notion. [Re: SoopaX]
    #4102837 - 04/27/05 03:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i <3 baeocystin...please don't do this :wink:


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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Offlineromie1
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An unusual analytical member who has successfully cultivated shrooms [Re: SoopaX]
    #4112292 - 04/29/05 08:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have a problem, I am new, however, I am extremely analytical about the cultivation of mushrooms. I have read all of the suggested readings and have ventured out on my own because i'm just that way... maybe i'm wrong, but here's what i'm doing. I decided to take a fully colonized cake and sit it atop some sterilized cow shit i bought from the store many years ago... thinking i'ts still sterile as the packaging said. I took a producing cake that was well left a little dry after i came back from my trip to Vegas. I broke it up and installed it into this new substrate. I also tooka a cake that was just finishing colonization and sat it atop the new so-called bottom that has cut up pieces of mycellium in the middle. The new cake after at least 10 days hasn't started pinnning yet and looks a little dry, but the hygrometer states that the humidity stays between 88 and 95% humidity. the cake still isn't pinning. Please, do you have any advice? I'ts not necessary to be mean, i'm still learning.


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Offlinestarseed1066
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Registered: 04/13/05
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Re: An unusual analytical member who has successfully cultivated shrooms [Re: romie1]
    #4113999 - 04/30/05 10:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

advice? post that question in the proper forum/topic.


--------------------
Under his instruction, I taped drumsticks to his head and turned him into a sort of mummy, or perhaps a caterpiller in a cocoon. He remains this way for about three hours, making bizarre noises, pretending to be a new species that must learn to walk and talk and eat, etc. And he communicates with other life forms by way of the antennae on his head. Eventually we jam a tube from a waterbong into it's mouth and figure he's learned all he needs to know.


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