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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 One Glaring Problem With The Bible 
#4086371 - 04/22/05 08:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The author of Genesis makes it clear that God c-r-e-a-t-e-d rainbows to mark the occasion of his grand covenant with Noah in which he promises to never again unleash a flood of such magnitude on the Earth. If Noah's rainbow hadn't been the very first, then it's not likely that Noah would have been impressed with this special token of God's contract.
Nevertheless, rainbows appear throughout all recorded human history, much of it predating all the books of the Bible by an enormous margin. Rainbows were documented by the ancient Chinese 11,000 years ago and far earlier than that by primitive cavemen in cave paintings.
The oldest book in the Bible is Job around 1500 B.C.
And if God changed the rules of refraction, a requirement to create the very first rainbow if none had ever existed beforehand, then nobody before rainbows existed would have been able to see because human eyes, specifically lenses, rely on the same principles of refraction to form an image on the retina that water droplets use to form a rainbow in the sky. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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 fresh313
journeyman
Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 13 years, 3 days
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 Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4086391 - 04/22/05 08:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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cant argue with fiction
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4086419 - 04/22/05 08:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Nice catch!
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4086454 - 04/22/05 08:53 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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As an atheist, I cannot see a rainbow.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: fresh313]
#4086459 - 04/22/05 08:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fresh313 said:
cant argue with fiction
Haha! 
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#4086467 - 04/22/05 08:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I argue with fiction every day here. 
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The proof is in the pudding.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: trendal]
#4086471 - 04/22/05 08:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wake up, Trendal... The matrix has you...
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.. 
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4086516 - 04/22/05 09:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I would have titled this thread, "One [of the] Glaring Problem[s] With The Bible"... 
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4086574 - 04/22/05 09:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The whole Bible is a glaring problem. You can find nonsensical shit like that on every page of it.
It really doesn't stand up to even simple science and history of the modern days, as you demonstrate in one example of many. Another reason why Creationism seems like a belief for unquestioning idiots, but if you don't believe in science I guess it's a lot easier to say the human race was created by incest from two people a few thousand years ago.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Ravus]
#4086684 - 04/22/05 10:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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 Yet another good point.
Although the Bible speaks that incest is wrong, it openly advocates in way of propogating the "original humans"... and then again when Noah comes....
I guess incest is only ok when god forces it...  anyone else have any ideas?
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: 
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4086972 - 04/22/05 11:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Nevertheless, rainbows appear throughout all recorded human history, much of it predating all the books of the Bible by an enormous margin. Rainbows were documented by the ancient Chinese 11,000 years ago and far earlier than that by primitive cavemen in cave paintings.
As I have said before.
The bible is nothing more, than old stories of how these primitave people saw their world.
They were stories told to explain their environment/world.
They tried to define their world, by inventing a "god" that made everything....they had no other explanation for what they saw.
The "Church" twisted these "folk tales" into the LITERAL WORD OF GOD
Quote:
Ravus said:
The whole Bible is a glaring problem. You can find nonsensical shit like that on every page of it.
Only if you try to use the "churches" view.
If you take the bible as a series of fiction.
Stories by a primitave society, trying to explain their world. The core teachings of the Christian Bible are good. As long as you stay away from the "churches" twisted pov.
Quote:
It really doesn't stand up to even simple science and history of the modern days, as you demonstrate in one example of many.
They didnt have modern science
Quote:
Another reason why Creationism seems like a belief for unquestioning idiots, but if you don't believe in science I guess it's a lot easier......
I believe it is possible to use the bible as a good example of how to leade a peaceful life.......as long as you take the "christian spin out of it.
I also believe that the current scientific view can go hand in hand with the "Creation" theory.
If you read thru the right glasses.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087010 - 04/22/05 11:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I also believe that the current scientific view can go hand in hand with the "Creation" theory.
How? Evolution by natural selection and creationism are complete contradictions in many aspects, and from reading the Bible I don't see how compatibility is possible between the two. You could argue creationism is in its very loosest form and take away the Bible's teachings, saying that God created the universe and its laws which then followed cosmology and evolution, but the Bible's form of creationism means much more than this.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:
Although the Bible speaks that incest is wrong, it openly advocates in way of propogating the "original humans"...
More evidence that Adam and Eve were not singular people.....but represent the whole human race (Adam=males/Eve=females)
And the "original sin" was not sex.
It was disobedience.
They were told not do eat from a certain plant...but they did.......
disobedience (to dis-obey....do what you fugin want) Its rampant in our society these days.
Doing the thing we arent supposed to do is the most temptiong thing in the whole fukin world.....look at the drug laws. 
The "church" spun the original sin into sex
There is a lot of spin in the "christian church"
Quote:
.....and then again when Noah comes....
Obviously the whole world wasn't destroyed. (more spin )
Just a very large area.
Every society has stories of "great floods".
This is just another "folk tale" twisted into the "literal word of God" by the "Christian Church"
Its all about control.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Ravus]
#4087078 - 04/22/05 11:49 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:
How? Evolution by natural selection and creationism are complete contradictions in many aspects, and from reading the Bible I don't see how compatibility is possible between the two.
Dont read too much into the bible. It was written by stone age people
Quote:
You could argue creationism is in its very loosest form and take away the Bible's teachings, saying that God created the universe and its laws which then followed cosmology and evolution, but the Bible's form of creationism means much more than this.
More spin on the "churches" part than the actual moral teachings of the bible.
The universe was set in motion by "something"
They saw this something as "god"
We can see more into the fine details of how the universe was created. Because of science.
Science cant tell us how or why the "big bang" happened.
The bible tries to teach us "how" to live our life while we are here.
"The bible doesn't tell us how the heavens go..just how to go to heaven"
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087092 - 04/22/05 11:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The universe was set in motion by "something"
Science cant tell us how or why the "big bang" happened.
You say these things as if they were fact... they're not.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087159 - 04/23/05 12:16 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:
Although the Bible speaks that incest is wrong, it openly advocates in way of propogating the "original humans"...
1) More evidence that Adam and Eve were not singular people.....but represent the whole human race (Adam=males/Eve=females)
2) And the "original sin" was not sex.
It was disobedience.
They were told not do eat from a certain plant...but they did.......
disobedience (to dis-obey....do what you fugin want) Its rampant in our society these days.
Doing the thing we arent supposed to do is the most temptiong thing in the whole fukin world.....look at the drug laws.
The "church" spun the original sin into sex
There is a lot of spin in the "christian church"
Quote:
.....and then again when Noah comes....
Obviously the whole world wasn't destroyed. (more spin )
Just a very large area.
Every society has stories of "great floods".
This is just another "folk tale" twisted into the "literal word of God" by the "Christian Church"
Its all about control.
1) It's taught as if they are individuals through the story, it's your interpretation that it is representative of humanity as a whole.... the whole bit on Eve being created through man, and therefore is lesser further promotes patriarchy, and I see no reason, nor how that is applicable to a whole....
Their is no reason to suggest the propogation of the human race through their actions, nor to suggest and place so much emphasis on the "first human beings" as the bible does... which leads me to the conclusion that it is indeed to be taken literally.
To suggest that the bible is metaphorical in certain representations, yet to take it literally in others is... stupid.
2) I try so hard not to go against the "original sin", but I don't see the purpose in being obediant to a god that allows so much shit to happen just to prove a point to a flawed creation that he knew was going to do all of this; even knows the end result, yet allows it anyway. It's like reading a book you wrote, and expecting a surprise... pretty pointless.
Nice take on the rest, especially the "great flood".
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087168 - 04/23/05 12:19 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
The universe was set in motion by "something"
Science cant tell us how or why the "big bang" happened.
You say these things as if they were fact... they're not.
How is our being here not a fact?
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087198 - 04/23/05 12:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Perhaps we just need to correct the message a bit;
The universe was set in motion by "something" (certainly wasn't a result of nothing)
Science has yet to tell us how or why the "big bang" happened.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087207 - 04/23/05 12:30 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The universe was set in motion by "something"
How do you know this? It's just as likely that the universe has always been here and was never created or 'set in motion'.
Science cant tell us how or why the "big bang" happened.
Where do you get this?
Science is and has been making steady progress and the new particle accelerators nearing completion promise to take us even farther.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087221 - 04/23/05 12:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Diploid.
Do a simple extraction on a common item you make in the Kitchen. I've been browsing the OTD, so I'll use Ramen? as an example. Ramen has never always existed.... even before it was cooked, it's ingredients needed to be manufactured through some process, and another process begat that and so on.... ultimately the source materials of everything involved in the creation of Ramen? including the pots, the energy needed to create it, the machines used to create it, the trucks to drive it to your store, etc... needed to be created from something. Take the universe as the Ramen, and it follows that something indeed was necessary to put it all together...
Ramen hasn't always existed, it was formulated on the basis of it's ingredients, and it's a cheap staple carbohydrate (has nothing to do with philosophy)... Some form of a predecessor of the machinations at work that are utilized in the manufacture, cooking, and distrubition of Ramen? had to exist even before the Advent of Ramen as we know it (proto Ramen?).
And nothing can ever create something, so perhaps in an odd sense something always had to exist to perpetuate the something... but, it's nearly impossible to fathom the concept in it's entirity, why some look to god as a source of explanation. The paradox of the situation presents the limitations on human comprehension.
Anyhow, lost the point I was making, so long story short; Yes.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/23/05 12:41 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Psychoactive1984, you're comparing apples and oranges.
The universe doesn't necessarily have a begining any more than the set of real numbers has one.
It may have a beginning, but it doesn't have to have one and the jury is still out...
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087240 - 04/23/05 12:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Neither does your life... maybe you were always here, and so is your post in response to it... you've just yet to find it. That form of logic does no good in answering the quesiton at hand, nor does it provide any substantial grounds for justifying it not having a begining. Give me one example of anything (beyond your conception of the universes creation, and god) that had no begining, and was always thought to exist without having a predecessor in way of function it serves. Even physical forces have their origins, and small energy sources beget larger ones on the macroscopic scales. (The sun for example)
Real numbers, as does anything in a defined system, truly does have a begining.
I'm in no way comparing apples and oranges, look at the situation, and think intuitively. Even if I was, apples and oranges share many fundamental commonalities (I'll leave that for another thread though).
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Alright, you say the universe must have a beginning.
Explaine why.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087259 - 04/23/05 12:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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What do you take issue with first in way of what I've presented, so I know how to properly address your question?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Intuitive + http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deduction
= intuitive deduction.
Even in way of semantics it has a begining if you wish to use your real number example (apples and oranges for you ).... as anything defined fits in our preconcieved notions of what is tied to it. The big bang attempts to explain the origin of our universe, not the something that was present in way of energy/(later turned to material) that caused the initial onset of what we define as the universe.
Maybe you should give me a definition of what your talking about so I don't abstract it too much (as it's more then possible for me to do it).
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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You're saying that the universe must have had a beginning. I take issue with that.
Please explain why it must be so that the universe must have had a beginning as opposed to having always existed.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087266 - 04/23/05 12:59 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.encycogov.com/B12Methodology/PosEcon/Table_2TermiPosi.asp (quick google search, I'll admit not the best site to use for a definition)
Intuitive deduction
Sometimes it is hopeless to state the explanans in terms of mathematics and as a result logical (or mathematical) deduction is impossible. In this case, the best alternative is to use intuitive deduction. This kind of deduction implies, that the researcher uses his common sense to figure out what conclusions seem to be the most likely given the available formulation of explanans. Relative to algebraic manipulations, intuition or common sense is a very subjective and erroneous kind of deduction, and from a scientific point of view this is a huge problem. However, it is still far better than having no theories at all to explain a phenomenon.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087273 - 04/23/05 01:02 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Alright, you say the universe must have a beginning.
Explaine why.
Because it says so in the bible. jk.......
Everything has a begining and an end.
Give me an example of something that has no begining or end......
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087277 - 04/23/05 01:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Diploid said:
Alright, you say the universe must have a beginning.
Explaine why.
Because it says so in the bible. jk.......
Everything has a begining and an end.
Give me an example of something that has no begining or end......
 Couldn't have worded it better myself.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087281 - 04/23/05 01:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Give me an example of something that has no begining or end......
A line in space.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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One realistic example (concepts won't be too applicable here, as some are more paradoxial in nature; not god, nor your conception of the universe unless you prove either of those two).
I can think of some things, conceptual; human ignorance has no begining, and certainly will have no end (we're all ignorant) .
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087292 - 04/23/05 01:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Give me an example of something that has no begining or end......
A line in space.
I have pointed my telescope at the sky many times. And seen pretty strings.....they ALL had a begining...middle.....and end.
Please be more specific.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087295 - 04/23/05 01:08 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Space curves objects stretched out in space, further, we'd be talking about a Parabola and/or convex type shape.... and further, the universe is dynamic, and it will ultimately be intersecting the line (what's this figuritive line made of)?
Through the curvature, and the effects of forces placed on it, we could find it's origin through the displacement of it's curvature (assuming it is infinite), we'd have to further make the assumption that the universe is infinite as well.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087299 - 04/23/05 01:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Please be more specific.
I don't see how I can be more specific than I was. You asked for "an example of something that has no begining or end". I gave you one. A line has no beginning and no end.
More to the point, if you say that the universe must have had a beginning, then please explain why this must be so. Two of you are saying this but so far neither has provided a rationale to support it.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087309 - 04/23/05 01:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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How was the line placed? A real world example please.
We can't justify it to you, as your presenting things of a conceptual nature, the likes of which we've never seen. (nor have you)
The line had to be placed, and created, and must have an origin (as it most certainly isn't in exisatance today)... unless this line has qualities not too disimilar from god in which it was always there and we just never see it.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087316 - 04/23/05 01:16 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Everything must have a begining, look at the context of our discussion, look at the evolution of the idea, and how it has shifted from the bible to the debate as to whether the universe had a begining. Please define the nature of which begining you seek, the begining of it's current state, the origin of the original material, the origin of the forces.... point out exactly what you're getting at as it is relevant to this discussion.
Show me one thing that is in the real world, has no begining, is fully known about, and isn't conceptual in nature please. I'll gurantee you can't do it. So why should you hold the Universe in a similar respect to having no begining?
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Everything must have a begining
You keep saying that, but you aren't backing it up with a rationale.
Just saying something doesn't make it so.
Show me one thing that is in the real world
We're not talking about the real world. We're discussing the metaphysics of the creation of the universe.
You're insisting that the universe had a beginning but you're not providing any reasoning, logic, evidence, or argument to support your statement.
Just saying something doesn't make it so.
So why should you hold the Universe in a similar respect to having no begining?
I don't. I'm saying that the universe may have had a beginning, or maybe not. Science is closing in on the answer, but the jury is still out.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087337 - 04/23/05 01:27 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Address my questions, and don't distract from them, then we'll be getting somewhere rather then chasing our tails...
I've asked them several times now.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=metaphysics
Still doesn't suggest why you don't choose to use a real world example. Now that's apples and oranges for ya... everything else in the "real world" (maybe we're using different definitions here) has a begining, and yet we hold that the advent of the universe was different...
It's good to be speculative... I'm just asking you to apply some intuitive deduction. It follows through logic that it did indeed have a begining. (it all depends on how we define the begining, which is why I've asked you for your definition).
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Address my questions
Alright, what's your question.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087350 - 04/23/05 01:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:We're not talking about the real world. We're discussing the metaphysics of the creation of the universe.
I don't see how more real we can get...when we talk about the world around us....and try to understand what we see.
Quote:
You're insisting that the universe had a beginning but..
I said that everything has a beginning.....even the universe......everything we can witness had a beginning, middle and end.
All the scientific data we have, points to a "Big Bang".........The literal beginning of everything
Quote:
you're not providing any reasoning, logic, evidence, or argument to support your statement.
I have shown more proof for a beginning of everything than you have for it being a static thing that just IS.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087364 - 04/23/05 01:37 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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All the scientific data we have, points to a "Big Bang".........The literal beginning of everything
Actually, the most recent scientific data suggests that the Big Bang occurred when the 3-dimensional brane on which we live collided with another brane, both of which reside within a higher-dimensional Meta-universe in which the concepts beginning and end have no, or radically different, meanings than they do to you and me.
Read all about it: http://superstringtheory.com/
This is why I say that we're not discussing the 'real world' but the metaphysical issues relating to the beginning of the universe.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087369 - 04/23/05 01:39 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Please define the nature of which begining you seek;
1) the begining of it's current state??????????
2) the origin of the original material??????????
3) the origin of the forces??????????
4) something else, define which begining you have problems with??????????
2--- has absolutely no viable explanation, and might as well talk about god; just letting you know in advance, that it begets itself in terms of transitions, with no systematic begining that can be labelled as to the creation of the "energy/material".
As it isn't too disimilar about questioning god's existance and who created god, and just suggesting that it always was (best explanation in terms of eliminating the need for further explanation)... although that would lead to a god, of a god, of a god, of a god, that needed a god of a god, of a god of a god,..... of a ..... to infinity, it is impossible to comprehend the concept of nothing comming from something, although it might as well be in regards to the creation of this schtuff. (A benefit of believing in god, it puts your mind to rest at least)
Doubt I'll prove it to ya, but it's late and that's when insanity... I mean creativity kicks in.
Edit:
Added some question marks, guess it wasn't clear.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/23/05 02:06 AM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087370 - 04/23/05 01:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
All the scientific data we have, points to a "Big Bang".........The literal beginning of everything
Actually, the most recent scientific data suggests that the Big Bang occurred when the 3-dimensional brane on which we live collided with another brane, both of which reside within a higher-dimensional Meta-universe in which the concepts beginning and end have no or radically different meanings than they do to you and me.
Read all about it: http://superstringtheory.com/
This is why I way that we're not discussing the 'real world' but the metaphysical issues relating to the beginning of the universe.
/bangs head on the wall.
Well, string theory is the theory that attempts to explain everything, that has so little in way of real life application (currently), it's pretty much the new kid on the block that's been beaten up a few times for the way it looks, and needed several novel makeovers.... Maybe I'll give it more credibility when it's more credible.
Sorry, here's my speculation .
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087378 - 04/23/05 01:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Actually, the most recent scientific data suggests that the Big Bang occurred when the 3-dimensional brane on which we live collided with another brane, both of which reside within a higher-dimensional Meta-universe in which the concepts beginning and end have no or radically different meanings than they do to you and me.
more....more...more.....
Tell me more.
I must know.
links please.......
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087383 - 04/23/05 01:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/bigbang_alternative_010413-1.html
New age science, attempting to get some more financial backing through what it suggests that is capable of. (still in the process of reading it).
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087391 - 04/23/05 01:50 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have read about "string theory" and it is just another "theory" made up by "a bunch of mad scientist trying to figure out whats going on in very tiny particles at very high energy levels."
Still just a "theory"
I got more evidence than you do..... 
jk
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087398 - 04/23/05 01:52 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.timecube.com/
you might like this one as well...
I however require and value proof over rhetoric..
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Todcasil
rogue DMT elf
Registered: 08/08/99
Posts: 16,381
Loc: Crawling on the floor...
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087400 - 04/23/05 01:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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no one will answer anyone elses questions.
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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.
~Casil 
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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a direct quote from the front page of your link.
Quote:
the new view argues that our universe was created when two parallel "membranes" collided cataclysmically after evolving slowly in five-dimensional space over an exceedingly long period of time.
the begining......
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087412 - 04/23/05 01:56 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Still just a "theory"
Nobody has ever seen an atom; we believe they exist only because we believe the Atomic Theory to be substantially correct.
The Atomic Theory incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It governs the operation of the nuclear power plant 100 miles south of me that powers my computer, it runs aircraft carriers and submarines, and the Atomic Theory is used to treat cancer patients through radiation oncology.
But it's just a theory...
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087413 - 04/23/05 01:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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semantics, that's not what he meant.
It might be though, the issue of this debate is what he defines as the begining.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Todcasil]
#4087415 - 04/23/05 01:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Todcasil said:
no one will answer anyone elses questions.
I have proven my point that the "universe" did have a begining.......
at least I thought I did.
The current scientific evidence points to some kind of "begining"
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087416 - 04/23/05 01:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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We've evidence, of its existance, as well as an application...
Now... apply that to brane. You're comparing an elder to an infant in terms of evidence.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Todcasil]
#4087423 - 04/23/05 02:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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no one will answer anyone elses questions.
I haven't been asked a question... at lest none that I've been able to discern.
I'll ask mine again, though.
Why must the universe have had a beginning as opposed to having always existed?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087427 - 04/23/05 02:01 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The current scientific evidence points to some kind of "begining"
This isn't so. Read deeper past the first page of the link I provided and you'll discover why you're wrong.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087440 - 04/23/05 02:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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..... Well, I'm gonna go have a smoke, scroll up and answer my question when you choose to find them, as I've reiterated myself enough.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087443 - 04/23/05 02:05 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Which link..."The Official String Theory" web site
or "Brane-Storm' Challenges Part of Big Bang Theory"
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087445 - 04/23/05 02:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://superstringtheory.com/
Read past what it says about our sub-universe and deeper into what it ways about the meta-universe; the one that may have always existed without a beginning and maybe without an end.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087468 - 04/23/05 02:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Which leads to my number 2.... we could've just dropped it at that.
In terms of human comprehension, and understanding it is impossible for the nature of the universe to have no actual begining... although we are vastly limited in our comprehension and understanding as to the nature of substance such that it requires a begining, but all begining require beginings, and all ends, require the same end result...
meh, Human logic dictates that it must've, for the "creator" must have a creator. Sameoldnew theory hidden behing bunk technical jargon.
We need to get MarkostheGnostic, and others in this discussion to elaborate on vulcanization.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087469 - 04/23/05 02:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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If your talking about the "String Theory"..it is still a pretty weak theory....
Quote:
A big complicating factor in understanding string cosmology is understanding string theories. String theories and M theory appear to be limiting cases of some bigger, more fundamental theory. Until that's sorted out, anything we think we know today is potentially up for grabs.
This is just one "theory" stacked upon another "theory"......in order to get the whole thing to work out right.
Very little of the "string theory" has been proven yet.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087477 - 04/23/05 02:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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String theories and M theory appear to be limiting cases of some bigger, more fundamental theory.
You misconstrue this statement as a denunciation of String Theory. In fact, the statement supports String Theory as likely a [correct] part of a higher-order theory.
Very little of the "string theory" has been proven yet.
Like I said above, the Atomic Theory has not been proven yet either.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087505 - 04/23/05 02:19 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
String theories and M theory appear to be limiting cases of some bigger, more fundamental theory.
1) You misconstrue this statement as a denunciation of String Theory. In fact, the statement supports String Theory as likely a [correct] part of a higher-order theory.
Very little of the "string theory" has been proven yet.
2) Like I said above, the Atomic Theory has not been proven yet either.
1) provide application, and substantial evidence in way of the theory, then I'll give more credence. Do a search on galactic cake, as it was one of my theories that currently is just as credible as string theory.
2) Look at the real life applications. A theory is only so good as it proves itself to be applicable, and it is beneficial and promotes our understanding to our real lives, and can be utilized in a manner that is realistic to the real world.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Let's cut to the chase... forget String Theory, let's take that up in another thread.
You say that the universe must have had a beginning as opposed to having always existed.
Direct answer please: Explain why this must be so using a different argument than just saying "Because".
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:
Please define the nature of which begining you seek;
1) the begining of it's current state??????????
2) the origin of the original material??????????
3) the origin of the forces??????????
4) something else, define which begining you have problems with??????????
2--- has absolutely no viable explanation, and might as well talk about god; just letting you know in advance, that it begets itself in terms of transitions, with no systematic begining that can be labelled as to the creation of the "energy/material".
As it isn't too disimilar about questioning god's existance and who created god, and just suggesting that it always was (best explanation in terms of eliminating the need for further explanation)... although that would lead to a god, of a god, of a god, of a god, that needed a god of a god, of a god of a god,..... of a ..... to infinity, it is impossible to comprehend the concept of nothing comming from something, although it might as well be in regards to the creation of this schtuff. (A benefit of believing in god, it puts your mind to rest at least)
Doubt I'll prove it to ya, but it's late and that's when insanity... I mean creativity kicks in.
Edit:
Added some question marks, guess it wasn't clear.
Address the question, in what respects to a begining are we discussiing?
DEFINE YOUR STANCE, AS TO WHAT QUALIFIES THE NATURE OF THE BEGINING, OR ELSE WE'RE BACK TO SQUARE ONE.
Without your answer, their is no point in going any further.
This is the third time I've asked this. We can of course distract from the fact that I've brought it up again though.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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DEFINE YOUR STANCE, AS TO WHAT QUALIFIES THE NATURE OF THE BEGINING, OR ELSE WE'RE BACK TO SQUARE ONE.
Beginning means the start of something. The usage here, relating to the beginning of the Universe, I mean that there are two possibilities for the Universe:
1. It did not exist, then it came into existence. This is what you claim.
2. It never did not exist. It has always existed. It did not have a point at which it was created.
My position is that it is not currently clear which of these two (or perhaps a third or more) conditions characterize the existence of the universe.
If you still don't get it, I give up. I can't be more precises without losing entropy. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087562 - 04/23/05 02:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm making no claims as to the nature of it. I'm making claims which would further be viable provided you could give me a concrete example of your definition, and not take contradictory stances as to your definition.
1) That isn't what I claim, you've been skimming through my posts.
2) In terms of human comprehension. Human logic (We need Spock in this mess) dictates that it had to be created, reread some of the posts made in this thread, think that niteowl and I have painted a nice picture as to why. So in terms of how we define begining, it had to have a begining, and everything always shall have a begining as well as an end from here to the end of time, and after, and before, all at once.... it's as to what we define a begining as which defines where it occured. (That's the issue I'm having with addressing your question)
--
No need to give up, as hopefully we aren't attempting to win only understand. If you're attempting to win, then giveup, else come back with a clear definition as to how you view the universe, and to what origin you are suggestilng. As ultimately, 1, 3, and 4 (another possibility) all lead to 2.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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You claim: [the universe] did not exist, then it came into existence.
That isn't what I claim
I quote you here:
"I said that everything has a beginning.....even the universe"
So, to clarify, do you say that the universe must have had a beginning or not?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/23/05 02:54 AM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087612 - 04/23/05 02:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes... for purposes of our discussion it must've.
Although in the grand sheme of things, it is impossible to give a concrete example as to how the begining came into being; which might lead one to the conclusion that it always existed without a begining, but with our limited understanding it did have a begining.
Is it a particle, or is it a wave? Both and neither by virture of having the definitive qualities of both... so put simply; Yes.
Now to clarify, define the starting point of the universe (try to specific generally ), or define the nature/mechanics of it, as either which one you employ will lead to #2....
2 is the ultimate result of any of the theories. Being as it is such, even the begining begets the begining, you just have to thumb it down to the extent that you qualify it as a begining. I might be confusing, but just having fun playing with a logical/linguistical paradox.
Edit:
Clarified things a bit more I hope. Have a goodnight, will talk tomorrow (provided no solution is gained).
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/23/05 03:01 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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define the starting point of the universe
I don't know how to be more specific: The Universe did not exist, then it did exist. That transition is the 'starting point of the Universe'.
I've answered your questions, now please answer mine.
You say:
Yes... for purposes of our discussion it [the universe] must've [had a beginning].
My question: Why must the universe have had a beginning instead of having always existed?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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soulmotion
Professor
Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 208
Loc: Jumanji
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#4087624 - 04/23/05 03:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
JacquesCousteau said:
I would have titled this thread, "One [of the] Glaring Problem[s] With The Bible"...
Yeah, the holy bible definitely has alot of holes in it. The Dinosaur timeline is another incrimination of biblical chronology.
I wouldn't even try to defend the bible as being 100% authentic, although it's likely that many of the stories originated from actual events that were later embellished/added-upon. I'm not a biblical scholar, but I know that most of the old testiment wasn't written down until around 600-400 b.c., thousands of years after the stories were supposed to take place. Before that time they were passed down from generation to generation by an oral tradition, which is obviously not the most efficient way to preserve information.
I know alot of people resent the Bible for what it is, what it claims to be, or what others claim it to be; but as for myself, I cherish it as an heirloom...as a patchwork of human religious heritage. I would feel equally sentimental toward the Koran, or another religious text if I was as fimiliar with them, and even if I've never read those other texts, I still believe they have a great deal of value to us in the present day. Sure, maybe some of the ideals in these books are incompatble with the age of reason; but if we in this generation are so secure with our new, incredulous identity; then why would we feel the need to sneer at the at faith(s) of our progenitors? What are we trying to prove, that we haven't proven already? Even with all it's holes, the Holy Bible has some instances of timeless wisdom that even the most cynical person has to admire...
...anyways...
...There is value in everything...
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: soulmotion]
#4087636 - 04/23/05 03:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I cherish it as an heirloom
Many people take is as the literal or almost the literal word of God and believe the Noah myth as if it were fact.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087646 - 04/23/05 03:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I cherish it as an heirloom
Many people take is as the literal or almost the literal word of God and believe the Noah myth as if it were fact.
Thats the "christian spin" I was talking about earlier.
If you take soulmotions pov (like mine) it makes more sence. Its just a collection of stories/myths that paint a moral picture.
The "christians" have used the "bible" as a tool of terror...to control the population.
Take all the spin out of it and it is a "good book".
_
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087649 - 04/23/05 03:23 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Its weird.......I was just having this same type of discussion with my future son-in-law earlier today.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087655 - 04/23/05 03:27 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Take all the spin out of it and it is a "good book".
Well, I agree with you re the core teachings of Jesus, but along with those teachings the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is full of God-sanctioned murder, slavery, selling of female children into prostitution, live sacrifices, God-inflicted pestilences and diseases, and all sorts of other horrors.
The horror in the Bible as a whole far outweighs the good, IMO, and it's far from a good guide to live by.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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soulmotion
Professor
Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 208
Loc: Jumanji
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087659 - 04/23/05 03:30 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey Diploid,
(I don't mean to change the subject but) Have you heard of Roger Penrose's recent book, "The Road to Reality"? I just started reading it. It's supposed to be a comprehensive guide to the laws of physics for the "serious lay reader". Other than a limited knowledge of kinematics, I'm pretty much a noob in this department. Any advice?
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4087661 - 04/23/05 03:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Take all the spin out of it and it is a "good book".
Well, I agree with you re the core teachings of Jesus, but along with those teachings the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is full of God-sanctioned murder, slavery, selling of female children into prostitution, live sacrifices, God-inflicted pestilences and diseases, and all sorts of other horrors.
The horrors you talk about were a reality for the (stone age) people from biblical times.
Quote:
The horror in the Bible as a whole far outweighs the good, IMO, and it's far from a good guide to live by.
The horror was just a reflection of their reality.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087662 - 04/23/05 03:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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plus the horror is part of the spin
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: soulmotion]
#4087668 - 04/23/05 03:44 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've skimmed Penrose's book. People who've read it tell me it's more than worthwhile.
Other than a limited knowledge of kinematics, I'm pretty much a noob in this department.
Get ready for a wild ride as you learn about the cutting edge in physics.
Another book you might like is 'The Dancing WuLi Masters' by Gary Zukav. It leans a bit toward the mystical side of things, but it's a good introduction to the weirdness of Quantum Mechanics. 
If you know some math, there are other books even more interesting...
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4087669 - 04/23/05 03:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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plus the horror is part of the spin
There's no 'Christian spin', as you say in the Old Testament. All the horrors there are pretty straight-forward.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4088167 - 04/23/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
plus the horror is part of the spin
There's no 'Christian spin', as you say in the Old Testament. All the horrors there are pretty straight-forward.
The bible (as it is known today) was pieced together by the "Christians". (there is lots more to the bible than you are presented in its current form)
They painted the picture that they wanted you to see.
There were true horrors in biblical times.....I wont argue that point.
The Christians spun the whole thing though.
There was not much spin before Jesus.
The "Jesus Freaks" used the horrors of the "Old Testament" to paint a picture of a Vengeful God for the "Revelation/Apocalypse"
It's all about control.
Them controlling you....not you controlling yourself.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4088228 - 04/23/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The horrors of god, and horrors in general are always created in minds of people..
Look at today, so many unadopted people screming how the universe is a fucked up place and nothing makes sense.
So in the minds of people of those old times, something divine would seem horrible.
In the mind of uneducated man, you would be a murdered for inviting him into your house in which he got accidentaly electricuted by touching wires.
In the mind of uneducated man, a dentist would be an evil person
In his mind, your plane that you use to bring him food would be authoritative and threatning.
Bible was written inside human minds, from human perspective.
And a savage mind can only paint a savage picture of a gentle flower
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (04/23/05 11:29 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4088251 - 04/23/05 11:40 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The "Jesus Freaks" used the horrors of the "Old Testament" to paint a picture of a Vengeful God for the "Revelation/Apocalypse"
Leviticus 20:10...
"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
There's no spin in that, it's pretty black and white: Adulterers deserve the death penalty.
You keep blaming 'Christian Spin' for the nastiness in the Bible, but the Bible is naturally nasty with or without spin.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4088260 - 04/23/05 11:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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How is that different from our own death penalty now in 2005?
Those who kill shall be put to death
Obviously sexual crimes in those days were higly rated
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#4088301 - 04/23/05 12:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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My point is that the Bible, with a few notable exceptions like Jesus' teachings, is a nasty book and wasn't 'spun' that way by Christians; and it's not a good model by which to live.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4088348 - 04/23/05 12:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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As for the question of whether the universe had a beginning or not, it seems to view this question in any light we have to realize what time is. If time is a dimension like the spacial three and like the (possibly) curled up 7, then the question of a beginning doesn't seem to matter in terms of an 11-dimensional universe anymore than asking whether the universe's height has a beginning. Which would be an interesting question, because according to some theories, no, the universe does not have a beginning height. If you start off at a point in the universe and continue upwards, you will eventually reach the same point you started out, like a 3-dimensional surface of a sphere. If all spacetime in the universe was like this, then it'd be quite interesting, though incomprehensible to my mind in terms of the fourth dimension.
Nonetheless, that would only confuse the issue. The argument that the universe has a beginning seems to be purely based off of our human perception, that everything we've observed has a beginning and an end, so why not the universe? Some people think it needs no more explanation than this. The problem with this, though, is numerous, because based on our observations, we also realize that everything in this universe paradoxically does not have a beginning and an end, it's only our perception of the object that appears to end, but the matter and energy of that object just change. So either way, we end up with problems.
If we say the universe has a beginning, based on our observations that everything seems to begin and end, then how did it come about?
If we say the universe is only a changing of something before it, then what was it, and did that have a beginning? If it didn't, how can it not have a beginning? Can time go backwards into infinity?
In the end, science needs more time to address this confusing issue, because currently, any theory on the universe has problems. Even the crazy ones with no evidence have problems when we're talking about time. This interesting problem may even simply be a problem with our interpretation of time as a linear only-forward going dimension rather than something possibly radically different.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#4088442 - 04/23/05 12:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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There is no problem with the Bible itself - it is a marvelous collection of writings that embody the thinking and values of a Semitic people over a couple of millennia. The Bible has more drama than all of Shakespeare's works combined: magick, mysticism, metaphysics, mythology, gods, goddesses, demons, angels, seduction by fallen angels, murder, catastrophe, mayhem, incest, vengeance, wars, lust, love, betrayal, etc. You name it, the Bible's got it.
Now, just how you choose to interpret these writings, what value you place on those interpretations and to what extent you desire others to share those same values as yours...these things are problems that People have under the influence of Biblical writings. By itself, the Bible is a tremendously important record of the human condition.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4088629 - 04/23/05 01:46 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Let me know if your still not getting what I'm suggesting.
Ravus put it into perspective very nicely..
Look as to what our logic dictates in terms of the something from something, and not nothing creating something... although ultimately with our current comprehension of everything it had to initially begin from nothing to something, that's the whole issue as far as I'm concerned, until we can thumb down the creation of the original form, and further what inspired that, and that.... we can't accurately place the begining, only assume through our logic that it did occur (even though at the same time it's impossible for it to occur);
I've made several posts about it in this thread already, although granted it was early in the morning so it might not be all that clear (I could've typed them now, and they might not be all that clear for that matter ).
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4088725 - 04/23/05 02:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
My point is that the Bible, with a few notable exceptions like Jesus' teachings, is a nasty book and wasn't 'spun' that way by Christians; and it's not a good model by which to live.
Well modern catholic church usually sticks to the new testament phylosohy (I can't imagine what would be if they promoted the old testament phylosophy) the trouble is that the old testament comes in one pack, so a lot of (millions and millions) christians privately use old testament to justify some even criminal acts.
In the old testament Jews had no difference between government and religion, between law and 10 commandments. Old testament pretty much gives a picture of a nation (not people, but one special nation) rulled by some unknown devine force, which clearly wasn't the allmighty spirit of the universe, but some rather authoritative entity that acted as our government acts today.
This god, this entity took care of them and gave them rigid rules how to live, and it commanded about hygiene too:
Burry the dead, do not unburry them once they are burried, wash,
be clean, this entity even commanded them what to do with their
pots and cooking.
Sounds to me like this god acted as their parent, it wanted to keep them obedient and wanted to purify their gene pool by killing all those who showed signs of "sin". So I think that the point of killing a man for rape or stealing was not because he deserved it but to purify the genepool, prevent him from making violent babies.
This god, was not a spiritual leader, but a terrestrial type of leader
that took care of every aspect of their lives, from hygiene and society, to planting food and cooking. It took absolute responsibility for every aspect of their lives, in return asking total obedience.
I think the old testament god should not be looked at from a spirital perspective because this god has nothing to do with spirituality, but simple polithics.
I think spirituality comes in with birth of Jesus, before that It was just staying clean and alive and nothing more.
The god of the old testament is a zoo keeper, nothing less nothing more.
In those days such methods were effective becuase people were uneducated and probably more savage than we are, so they had to have a god to tell them to wash behind their ears and not to touch dead corpses.
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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niteowl
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#4088769 - 04/23/05 02:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Well modern catholic church usually sticks to the new testament phylosohy
I had a Baptist preacher tell me that "The teachings of Jesus supersceded the teachings of the Old Testament"
He said that the 10 commandments no longer apply.
If thats so why is it in the bible. Why is the "Old Testament" books (Genesis, Adam and Eve, Noah...) still in the current "christian" bible.
To control the masses, thats why..... by painting a picture of a "venveful God" that will send you to "Hell fire and Brimstone for eternity" if you dont beleive in our way of thinking.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4088810 - 04/23/05 02:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, but I'm just talking about the bible itself as a book, not the users of bible and wheatever they call themselfs or claim to.
In fact the old testament does not speak of any afterlife at all.
In the old testamnet, jews simply had to obey their god, and in return they got protection, and a promised land, but what was dead was dead and was burried, end of story.
In the bible, Jesus "prepared a place" in the kingom of heaven for people. So It's not the old god that sent to hell (he didn't do anything)
In fact the whole thing about heaven is not clear even in the new testament. Jesus said that kingdom of heave will come to earth and that dead and alive will live there, those dead would come to life once again.
And as for hell, well in most instances it is mentioned simply as death.
Two scenarios can be pulled out of the Bible, one is that
people have no souls at all, but those good will be recreated once kingom of heaven comes to earth,
and the other one is the one the church uses: heaven and hell
emediate after death
You could say that the first scenario (even in new testament)
describes people as simple creatures of flesh and blood with no souls, that can be recreated (with DNA?) once the lord wishes it
Like I said a lot of teachings and different perspectives can be pulled out of Bible, even some clearly materialistic ones.
Church has chosen one of those perspectives and uses it for their own purpuses.
There is nothing clear about Bible as church makes it look,
nothing is clear, the Bible is a big mistery
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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OmEgAx1
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#4090545 - 04/24/05 12:56 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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You guys are arguing the wrong points of our very existance.
One of the arguments that the universe has no beginning or end is the fact that seemingly it is not limited in our 3-dimensional perspective. That itself is arguable, as you cant say the universe has no end, though we can approximate how large the universe is, because the edge of the universe is just were the last bit of 3 dimensional matter exists, I could give you a number for the size of the universe, its the center with a sphere with a radius of one light year multiplied by the billions of years the universe has existed (approximated to about 20) which points out the fact that the universe came from a single point, which you could say that point is before 3 dimensional space existed, as a true point cannot exist in 3 dimensional space. But the universe is limited, however. The limiting factor (that we know of) is the fourth dimension, the fourth dimension being time. You try to argue the beginning and end of the universe, thats just a perspective of the fourth dimension, which to us is just a constant, so to us, yes, the universe has to have a beginning and an end. But this is all relative.
The true question is the whole nature of these dimensions we try to argue about, and relate/compare to. We cant comprehend the nature of these dimensions because we are limited in every way by all but 3. What governs these dimensions though? Can the dimensions have a beginning or an end? If so, how could it be possible if without a 4th dimension everything would exist for eternity infinitely? You cannot relate it to that anymore due to that, since time isnt even the highest dimension, so if there are dimensions not governed by time like the first 3 are, what governs the rest? And ultimately, what created them?
What im saying is that not even the dimensions are definite it seems, so this brings up my ultimate argument, even though the comprehension of what ive explained is next to impossible, there must be a force, something, not anything I could even phathom to try to describe in words, but something that has even a greater heirarchy than the dimensions, just as "existence" is all in what we percieve as these dimensions, these dimensions are all in something greater, more ultimate, something that the terms "beginning" and "end" cant even apply to...
God?
Edited by OmEgAx1 (04/24/05 01:12 AM)
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wjames
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4090902 - 04/24/05 06:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The "christians" have used the "bible" as a tool of terror...to control the population.
Would it be more accurate to say "some 'christians'"?
By comparison, the anti-drug establishment talks about "drug users" as if they're all the same. They equate all with the worst examples.
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"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali
Edited by wjames (04/24/05 06:07 AM)
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Delusion_of_Self
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4090927 - 04/24/05 06:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Diploid said:
Alright, you say the universe must have a beginning.
Explaine why.
Because it says so in the bible. jk.......
Everything has a begining and an end.
Give me an example of something that has no begining or end......
Energy
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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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JacquesCousteau
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Quote:
Delusion_of_Self said:
Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Diploid said:
Alright, you say the universe must have a beginning.
Explaine why.
Because it says so in the bible. jk.......
Everything has a begining and an end.
Give me an example of something that has no begining or end......
Energy
Indeed... and that happens to be what we find all around and in us at all times.
I, personally, think the most likely scenario is that all existance (AKA, energy) is eternal, because it supercedes the concept of time; which is only a facet of our perceptions in the first place.
How can something that supercedes the concept of time have a beginning or an end in a chronological sense? Impossible.
One might argue that it could have a "physical" (in quotes, because I don't mean that quite literally... more like a "physical" that incorporates the concept of supercession of the concept of time as another dimension.) beginning or end, but I don't think that's what's being debated... and it's also pretty irrelevant when stuck inside a meat popsicle that tells us time progresses.
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Icelander
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 Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#4091043 - 04/24/05 08:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
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actually the bible says there was no beginning and there shall be no end
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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
   
Trip Report
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myndreach
philosopher
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4091235 - 04/24/05 10:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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There are so many problems with the Bible, it is amazing really.
Check out http://atheistbiblestudy.com or http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
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Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
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Basically everything with a beginning has an end. Energy has always existed because energy just changes form, and because you can't get something from nothing. Energy has no end, so therefore it could have had no beginning. Finally, since energy does exist, we may safely conclude that it has always existed, in one form or another. And basically, "energy" is what the "universe", and what "life" is.
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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
Trip Report
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Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: niteowl]
#4091295 - 04/24/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I had a Baptist preacher tell me that "The teachings of Jesus supersceded the teachings of the Old Testament"
He said that the 10 commandments no longer apply.
good. the whole adultery prohibition was no fun anyway.
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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
Trip Report
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OmEgAx1
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Smallworlds]
#4091482 - 04/24/05 12:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wrong, energy does have beginnings and ends.
Energy starts from matter, matter starts from energy. Energy is still a palpable 3 dimensional thing, light is energy, light is made of photons, photons are definite things, photons can be created and destroyed. Energy doesnt supercede time, energy is limited by time, without time, energy would be as active as we would, since energy travels at a certain speed which by itself implies it doesnt supercede time.
Nothing we can see or experience can superceede time, because if it did, we would never have the opportunity to experience, it would always exist everywhere and never exist anywhere simultaneously because we are ourselves limited by time, as is energy.
Time is the ultimate heircarchy of the dimensions, and not even the dimensions could exist without time. But like I said previously, even the dimensions seem to be definite and limited, so that implies theres something even greater than that, something more ultimate.
Edited by OmEgAx1 (04/24/05 12:12 PM)
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Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OmEgAx1]
#4091493 - 04/24/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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But if matter = energy as you suggest, that still doesn't give it a beginning. It still always existed in one form or another, whether in the form of matter, or free-flowing energy.
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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
Trip Report
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OmEgAx1
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Smallworlds]
#4091502 - 04/24/05 12:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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But it proves that energy doesnt have to always exist, if it can change forms it can be created. But lets just say energy has always existed for the sake of argument. What im saying is all the matter and energy in the universe was concentrated to 1 point (before the dimensions of movement and matter) and then something sparked the existence of what we know as the 3 dimensional world rather than a 1 dimensional existence, which with its creation, that enourmous ammount of energy would have taken the extra room, but notice if theres a uniform source of all existence, why is the universe not uniform? My argument here is that though 3 dimensional space didnt exist, time did, and in a 1 dimensional plane with the progression of time gave all the spectacular variations we see now.
My theories are a bit out there I understand, but give it some thought.
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Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OmEgAx1]
#4091511 - 04/24/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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In your theory, does the one dimentional plane you describe contain any traces of conciousness?
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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
Trip Report
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Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
Registered: 03/12/05
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OmEgAx1]
#4091519 - 04/24/05 12:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Also in your model, are you suggesting that at one point there was just this little ball of energy just sitting there in the middle of "space" hanging out waiting for some mystical event that makes it explode into planets, one or more of them abundant with life? Well, how did that little ball of energy get there, and what finally set it off?
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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
Trip Report
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Smallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster
Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Smallworlds]
#4091522 - 04/24/05 12:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Breakthru: My church leaders tell me that it was in fact a pool ball on God's pool table.  
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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..
Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
Trip Report
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Smallworlds]
#4091720 - 04/24/05 02:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smallworlds said:
Also in your model, are you suggesting that at one point there was just this little ball of energy just sitting there in the middle of "space" hanging out waiting for some mystical event that makes it explode into planets, one or more of them abundant with life? Well, how did that little ball of energy get there, and what finally set it off?
What I was getting at earlier in this thread....
Regardless of what happened, and what initialized the energy to spawn off and create the universe as we know it, that energy needed a begining, and prior to that, something had to make rise of it's former state, and so we have a backwards paradox, in which something had to give rise to the original conception of this energy, that was later subsequently transmuted to the mass that we know see.
Nothing>>>turning to something>>> impossible to comprehend from a human viewpoint>>> the existance of god/string-theory/brane's/many other fabrications that still cannot develop, nor will they be able to develop the underlying concepts of accounting for the manifestation of this energy, as something had to manifest the energy, and in turn, it had to be manifested by something further.
It had a begining, but what we'd call that will be unknown until we can duplicate the process of creating something, from absolutely nothing (impossible, conservation of energy used in this notion).
So It had a begining, as much as it didn't, as it's impossible in both scenarios as to our current understanding... even if one were to utilize the notion of a multidimensional universe, the original energy(changed to matter, and vice versa) will always be unaccounted for (in terms of human comprehension). Which will leave some more confused, and some more enlightened as to how absurd humans are and our notions of creation (we just can't win, somethings you just have realize, that in all likelihood everything is contrived).
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: myndreach]
#4092574 - 04/24/05 06:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Atheists are trapped in the lowest 'sphere' of existence - the Kabbalistic Malkuth, to use a model that I appreciate. We have this sphere in common with the sensory data-rational minded atheist, but some people have access to other spheres of human beinghood. Atheists are comprised of the same spheres, but fight to remain in the earthly sphere. Transcendence of human consciousness and all that implies is denied. Sometimes it happens (it happened to me), that a scientific materialist has his world-view exploded by an Experience that is so life-changing, with so many possibilities that need interpreting, that he leaves the field of physical science to explore the heights and depths of consciousness. In my case, I left pre-medical studies for philosophy, then theology and then psychology. I was transformed in the course of my studies.
Whether they are Biblical scriptures or those belonging to other faiths, atheists fail to grasp them as records of human experience portrayed in the subtleties of myth, metaphor, midrash and metaphysics [prior to physics]. They are materialistic reductionists "by-and-large" (as my high school sociology teacher used to say) who can only find a reason-bound rationalization - which is a defense mechanism, not a logic that translates the intention of scripture-writers - to explain away ancient writings. They may insist that they are the writings of pre-scientific people (which they are of course) which is not self-explanatory, that they are a primitive form of cultural wish-fulfillment (all of a sudden using psychoanalytic ideas for their own agenda), beliefs constructed from scratch to allay fear of the unknown - death in particular (without being the least bit aware of universal, archetypal, transpersonal experiences that are at the bottom of such writings). Atheists might attribute the creation of an intelligently designed universe to their own 'unconscious god ' - sufficient time and mathematical probability (given enough time, chance reactions will result in the building blocks of biological life and mutation will eventuate in an Einstein, a Linda Brava, or our communication over these computers).
Now, the de-mythologization of an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky type god NEEDS to be done, but the solution to the death-of-God in this context is done no good by atheism which is equally ridiculous to the belief in the Guy-in-the-Sky. The Intelligence behind MY creation is certainly not less than I am, and assuredly so far beyond my meager understanding as to utterly transcend any human's ability to comprehend it. Pity the poor atheist who believes in his own ability to understand and explain his 'god' as time and probability. How painfully absurd. Look at the fate of the false prophet of American Atheism Madelyn Murray-O'Hare: murdered, dismembered, burned and buried in her own property - by her own son. How Old Testament like, no?
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Not true. Some aethesits just merely acknowledge it for what it is... Further it's a more objective stance then adhering to one god as an ultimate form of rationalization which places one's faith wholly into one belief when their are so many to choose from... (also kind of passive-aggressive through abstaining but )
In order to have a firm grasp on it all, you have to accept the notions of everything; which in a sence, also isolates you through contradicting beliefs as many teachings are in direct conflict.
I think you are vastly over-generalizing what you attribute to the Aethist mindset. Aethists (well everyone IMO) have a hidden god even if they don't choose to acknowledge it (rather a form, they just choose not to name and attribute it with the vast complications espoused by some religions).... some call it common sense, others call it being rational among other things, others pleasure (more in line with hedonism), either way they do have something that governs their life as a god would they just don't choose to qualify it as such (different in name, same in function).
--
You may choose to call this a form of false aethistic doctrine, however everyone believes in god in one form or another.... Everyone... be it merely conceptual, be it actual, or any other manner, it is literally impossible not to believe in god, as the notion is part of humanity on a whole... talk to anyone, from any culture, and look through their language, and question anyone capable of communicating, be it an actual entity, or an underlying concept in way of fundamental laws, of nature, god exists to everyone. It's merely what you attribute to god is what matters.
--
It's an order misconstrued by many; it has the potential to inspire much more then most "formal" religions, as their isn't a limitation imposed in way of challenging notions. Aethism (sometimes Nihilism) can be utilized far much more objectivity, then many religions would allow, as both aren't really too afraid to challenge taboo subjects (Nihilism especially).
Both stances have their merit; I'd most likely be considered an Aethist (if asked I attribute my god solely to uncertainty/chance as theirs a chance that it doesn't even exist... chances are that I won't know)... which doesn't say much, but doesn't really contradict itself much as it provides a much better rationalization to the workings of the universe, and the reasons why shit happens and "bad" stuff befalls us all; additionally it doesn't attempt to backstep to cover it's own ass as it was proven fallacious on countless occasions (theirs always a chance it's right, always a chance it's wrong).
How is it a pitifull notion to attribute one's god to probability or even time itself? Why does one need to have a formal guideline for life designated by that which we can't even prove? The more assertions a religion makes, the more contradictions that are bound to arise as a result of it. Look at the Bible.... among one of the biggest books of contradictions around, at least the most scrutinized.
How is one god/religion, or belief more righteous over another... either way in terms of all religions attempts to explain everything, the result turns out to be utterly ridiculous. (including science and it's newest toy: string-theory... that attempts to explain, and solve everything, but so far has shit to show for its ability to do so)
Someone's god doesn't need to enforce morality... he/she/it certainly doesn't create our laws, neither does god help dictate what is and isn't the best way, let alone help by providing favorable conditions to help out with the way they meant things to be conducted... well, beyond tossing out generalization upon generalization that can be interpreted and misconstrued a thousand times over.
Either way, if we are to view everything with an open mind, we can't truly be affiliated nor tied to any sole belief set, as it typically is a form of stagnation, as their is little growth in respect to ancient philosophies... that are well... ancient and no longer applicable as they don't cover all aspects of our current civilization as they were intended to, nor did the writers (through god, or through person) have the ability to percieve our current nature. Well, that's applicable to religions that mandate/dictate an entire lifestyle.
Evolution is about adaptation... the winners are those that can change the best, and fastest according to their situation.... apply that notion to religious belief and outdated concepts, and it's counter intuitive to follow such beliefs as they offer stagnation, and restrict growth to what is established in way of their form of indoctrination. It applies at least to older religions that dictate a lifestyle, and prophesize everything. (and how "some" of them as a collective belief have had a great hand in genocides/slaughters and further attempting to stem the growth of technology)
Either way, just giving an opposing side, to spur debate... Both are good on their own merit, neither form is inherently superior, it all depends on how individuals carry out their intentions and what is their underlying motivation; and futher how they abide by what's set forth in their belief system.
Edit:
Cleared and expanded on some ideas.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/24/05 10:52 PM)
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OmEgAx1
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For the answere to my theory about how the 1 dimensional space came into being and the reason for the entire process being triggered...
As one of my science teachers long ago tried to explain to my class for the reason that spec came into existance...
That spec, the beginning of the big bang, is the "fingerprint" of God.
Interpret that as you please. But also what im trying to say is that energy is just a manifestation of the existance of 1 dimensional space, as 1 dimensional space wouldnt exist without that spec, and that spec would of been occupied by something much simpler than energy, just think about it like this... Objects > atoms > particles > quarks > energy > something more basic, a mere resonance of existance that expanded into 3 dimensional space when 3 dimensional space came into existance. And you have to remember again that I use the phrases "beginning" "end" and "coming into existance" very losely as all of those terms are just perceptions relative to time.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
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Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OmEgAx1]
#4093740 - 04/24/05 11:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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 I'll buy that.
Still doesn't evolve much in the explanation of the infinite logical backwards (in respects to time) paradox of #2 that I presented.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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faslimy
Dead Man
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OmEgAx1]
#4093741 - 04/24/05 11:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Have you ever heard of the holographic universe?
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: faslimy]
#4093751 - 04/24/05 11:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Interesting notions presented... but just like Ramtha, and "What the Bleep do we know" it has a lot of room to expand beyond what it presents (built on assumptions, and logical inconsistancies).
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Droz
Love of Life
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The bible creates power of those weak-minded individuals who easily fall into a belief system that keeps them tied up in scandal forever.
Peace,
Droz
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Evolution of Time.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Droz]
#4093806 - 04/24/05 11:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Heresy!!!!!
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Droz
Love of Life
Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Fuck heresy! Don't tell me christians aren't mind fucked.
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Evolution of Time.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Droz]
#4093838 - 04/24/05 11:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Open your heart to Jebus. I mean Jesus.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Droz
Love of Life
Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Haha, are you kidding me Psycoactive. Kill jesus.
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Evolution of Time.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Droz]
#4093861 - 04/25/05 12:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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Of course I'm kidding you .
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm His story had good ideals,but poor implementation and plotline... I give it a 3 out of 5.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Something I found while searching through a page with a shit load of quotes:
Christianity Debunked in One Paragraph;
If you don't believe Adam and Eve were real people who actually fell from grace by eating the forbidden fruit, then the entire Bible after the first chapter of Genesis is irrelevant to you in terms of damnation and salvation. If there's no Adam, there's no original sin. If there's no original sin, there's no need for a redeemer. Period. The end. But...if you're a Christian who does believe the Genesis account of original sin, then you also believe that mankind is tainted as a direct result of Adam's fall from grace. We're contaminated by sin regardless of our consent or our belief. Enter Jesus. He supposedly was crucified to save us. If our contamination via Adam was passive -- it happened regardless of our consent or our belief -- then to set the scales of eternal justice in balance again, musn't Jesus' redemption also be passive? Shouldn't his sacrifice cancel out all sin -- whether we consent to it or not and whether we believe it or not? To argue otherwise is to say that God has condemned us unconditionally but has made redemption conditional. The implication of the Christian argument is that Adam's original sin was superior to Jesus' sacrifice, because Adam's fall condemned us all whereas Jesus' redemption can only save some of us. Wasn't Jesus' death greater than (or at least equal to) Adam's mistake? If the crucifixion and resurrection trumped original sin, then the debt for all sin is paid for all time, regardless of our consent, regardless of our belief, regardless of our faith. There is no need to be a Christian to benefit from forgiveness of sin, just as there is no need to be a Christian to inherit Adam's sinful nature. Either Jesus paid all sin-debt for all time, or he didn't. So which is it? http://www.nobojo.com/debunked.html
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Why take the bible so literally? The easter "sin" could be a genetic defect or something, perhapse a defect that is making us age and die
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#4111662 - 04/29/05 03:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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The Bible doesn't tell us how to take it... It merely tells us that it is the true word of god.
As such, I merely lend my intepretation of it's inherent truth if you must know. So unless someone wants to get all fascist on me and tell me their is only one way to interpret it, or another way is better then all the others despite the thousands of variations.... I'll keep on keepin' on.
BTW that paragraph wasn't mine, just posted it.
The easter sin could also do with rabbits, or the cadbury cream egg, as of course the bible is prophetic.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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BlueOrb
prototype
Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 217
Loc: The fourth dimension
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Nevertheless, rainbows appear throughout all recorded human history, much of it predating all the books of the Bible by an enormous margin. Rainbows were documented by the ancient Chinese 11,000 years ago and far earlier than that by primitive cavemen in cave paintings.
Christians will tell you that human history only pre dates 6,000 years. Any evidence sugesting any human history beyond this time will be considered false. Thats how they get out of it!!
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"They are trying to build a prison, for you and me to live in"
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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It wasn't directed at you you, just you, a general comment on the issue..
Easter sin could also be consciousness, we have not yet found any self-aware creature on this planet all of them are fully automatic (exept for doplhins of course ), maybe in the eyes of biblical god we were never ment to be conscious of ourselfs
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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If everyone can make up their own interpretation of the Bible, then what good is it. Why not just toss it and everyone just make up whatever they want.
Same net result.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#4111691 - 04/29/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's what the Church would prefer... at least make mankind only capable of taking directives from one united source rather then to think for themselves.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
|
Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: Diploid]
#4111693 - 04/29/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's exactly my point Diploid.
It's not real... everything in the fucking thing needs a group to tell you how to interpret it.
You need a manual to interpret the Bible. It's not explicit, nor was it designed to be. It's those that take it explicit and follow it to a "t" with their dogma that fuck it up for the remainder of the
belief.
I say toss it, and keep some of the good morals in it.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:
It's not explicit, nor was it designed to be. It's those that take it explicit and follow it to a "t" with their dogma that fuck it up for the remainder of the
belief.
I say toss it, and keep some of the good morals in it.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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I say don't toss It but start looking at it from a perspective of a grownup, which would mean look at it as a book, not as some holy word of god, try to find the right context for all those words, try to find a practical basis for them and pull the whole thing out of medival mysticism that it is living in right now
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#4111956 - 04/29/05 04:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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I dunno, I think if we were to truly look at it from a grownup perspective... We wouldn't look at it all, and come up with new beliefs with solid foundations on the present rather then the antiquated past.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
If my brain offends thee, should I cut it off too?
But isn't suicide a sin?
Oh Lawd?
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:
I dunno, I think if we were to truly look at it from a grownup perspective... We wouldn't look at it all, and come up with new beliefs with solid foundations on the present rather then the antiquated past.
I think all of the bible was based on some actual events that people just didn't know how to interpret so that is how all the story about god came into place. So I think Bible, Veda, Kuran, Torah etc all need to be revisited in a couple of houndrets of years from now when we have more knowledge of our past, and investigated to solve their misteries. The whole thing could be based on something stupid and simple and we could all have a laugh, but ont he other hand, the whole thing could lead to some discoveries too
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Original Sin was a brilliant creation of Augustine, not early Jewish Christianity. It made the Church-dispensed sacraments absolutely essential to salvation and thus gave ultimate power to the Church and its priesthood. It was a theo-political maneuver. Jesus Himself said 'I am come not for the righteous, but for the sinners,' and fully acknowledged righteous people. It was Paul who later said that 'all have fallen short of righteousness' in his bid for faith over works.
Early, original and Authentic Christianity was not called Christianity. In fact it was not identified as anything other than 'The Way' within the existing Judaism of the day. Judaism recognizes an 'evil inclination' - the 'yetzer hara,' but not the spiritual inheritance of utter depravity that Augustine distorted the Truth into. That was the beginning of the end for true Christianity, the perversion of power-centric 'churchianity.'
The answer to your question is not simple, since the predestination/free-will tension does not seem to be answerable in simple logical, yes-no fashion. Both principles seem to be operative, but for whom, at which time, under what conditions is not immediately discernible in any general sense. It may be individual, subjective, not lawful and hence generalizable.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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wow, that's interesting, where did you hear that? (about Audustine)
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: One Glaring Problem With The Bible [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#4114144 - 04/30/05 09:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's church history. Pick up any book on the history of Christianity and look up the doctrine of original sin or St. Augustine. BTW, there are many interpretations on the Genesis story - I'm reading one now that is Kabbalistic in nature.
The Gnostic schools had their own versions, in some, 'the Shining One' (later interpreted as 'serpent') was the hero of the story - supplying Gnosis [Spiritual Knowledge] about 'the fruit of knowledge of good and evil,' thus enlightening our Primal Parents. In those versions, the Creator God had trapped pure awareness in material bodies and was keeping the Garden of Eden as a sort of spiritually stagnant menagerie for his own purposes. Our Primal Parents needed to leave the cozy little Garden, and then learn to transcend the limits of their embodied prison to return to their celestial origin in the GOD above the Creator God.
A modern account in the book 'Ego and Archetype' by Edward Edinger gives a Jungian psychological version of Adam and Eve that seems to explain the meaning that the ancients did not have the language to explain with, so they used mythological language needing interpretation, while the true meaning remained in their unconscious. Mythology always uses symbolic forms and themes to depict universal but unconscious processes of life's meaning.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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