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Offlinebearmtn
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Panaeolus Foenisecii activity
    #4082352 - 04/21/05 05:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Many current "experts" have proclaimed that Panaeolus Foenisecii is never psycho-active at any time. Back in the late 1970s in my shroom days I actually harvested a patch of blue staining Foenisecii that were definitely active. In late summer, on a lawn that grew non active Foenisecii for years. They were identical to the detail to the non actives except for blue staining stems and caps. I never found them again on this lawn or any other.
Anyone out ther ever come across this??

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4082403 - 04/21/05 06:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

strange story

you must have been finding something else other than Panaeolina foenisecii.
possibly you were finding a psychoactive species of Panaeolus.

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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #4082986 - 04/21/05 09:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

first of all i must correct you. Due to the fact all Panaeolus species have a black spore print, and foenisecii's spore deposit is brown, it has been placed under "Panaeolina". Therefore; Panaeolina Foenisecii is the correct name.

you probably found Panaeolus Subbalteatus, which is an active, but rarely stains blue. It's very low in psilocybin, but still active. This mushroom is often mistaken for Panaeolina Foenisecii in the field by most amateur hunters. Even alot of professionals have made this mistake.

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Offlinecanid
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: CptnGarden]
    #4083072 - 04/21/05 09:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

if they key out to Panaeolus, the spores are brown and they are roughened, they fall within the group/sub-genus Panaeolina, however; P. foenisecii is not active as far as general conscensus by the authorities goes. it is also not the only member of Panaeolina [i think].

i have found almost large [by contrast], lawn enhabiting Panaeolina specimens that i am quite sure showd mild blueing on the basal mycellia more than once. there may simply by a weakly active species not yet published in the group. who knows, life forms do funny things when you approach thier study fromm the standpoint that all things about them are know or understood.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

Edited by concretefeet (04/21/05 09:42 PM)

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: canid]
    #4083899 - 04/22/05 03:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Concretefeet d said,
Quote:

if they key out to Panaeolus, the spores are brown and they are roughened, they fall within the group/sub-genus Panaeolina,




Panaolus spores are black, Panaeolina spores are brown. There are four species of panaeolina and none of them contain psilocine and /or psioocybine.

And they are not active in any amount.

Panaeolus subbalteatus is as potent by weight as Psilocybe cubensis. 3-5 dried grams or over one fresh ounce of Pn. subbs is the equivalent of 3-5 dried grams of cubes or over one fresh ounce of cubes.

mj.

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4084184 - 04/22/05 08:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I knew this would raise some eyebrows and controversy, that's why I posted it. This particular find was so unusual and surprising. Paying attention to minute identifying characteristics at that time, I can assure you that this was a brown spored Foenisecii down to the minute detail except for the definite blue staining stem and cap (the cap on drying). It was active also. I had a habit for several years back then to quickly examine Foenisecii every lawn that I encountered, as they were the most common summer lawn specie in our region. I got to know the specie very well. I just love it when conventional wisdom and knowledge is confounded by our little mushroom friends!

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Offlinefindaway29
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4084503 - 04/22/05 10:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i have the same in my yard. they bruise blue but not very much and i'm positive that they are Panaeolus Foenisecii. finding them last year for the first time was how i was introduced to mushroom hunting.

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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: findaway29]
    #4084610 - 04/22/05 11:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

panaeolus subbalteatus and panaeolina foenisecii look very similar in resemblance, if your all finding these blue staining foes why aren't you posting pictures of them? all of you could be as famous as mj if you could prove that foes can be active, or even discover a new species. Post some pictures of these blue staining foes and have MJ identify them, im sure they are just subbs.

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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: CptnGarden]
    #4084619 - 04/22/05 11:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Panaeolus subbalteatus is as potent by weight as Psilocybe cubensis.




wow you learn something new every day. I've noticed the psilocybin content actualy varies with subbs and where they are found... isn't there a difference in potency based on how much nitrogen is used when producing fruit bodies? Some of the subbs I found only took 10-12 large mushrooms (2.5 grams) to feel some good effects. While in other "experiments" it took nearly 4 grams to feel anything at all. All subbs with black spore deposits!

EDIT: the 2.5 grams of mushrooms were found in a grass field and were very potent for subbs, while the 4 grams of subbs were found on a huge pile of composted horse manure and weren't as potent, even with the high amount of nitrogen for growth.

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: CptnGarden]
    #4084692 - 04/22/05 11:23 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

As I stated in my original post , this was back in the 1970s. I can't post a photo. I havn't found these since. Out of the 1000s of Foenisecii I have examined these were the only active ones. They weren't Pan. Subb., they were brown spored. Foenisecii and Subbs. aren't very hard to distinguish.

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4084764 - 04/22/05 11:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I only brought up this subject to discuss some of the interesting anomalies that different variables and conditions can produce. In my younger days (sigh) in the 1970s I spent an inordinate amount of time, years, studying and hunting for psychoactive fungi. For example, I used to take a pilgrimage to the extreme northern part of my state each fall to pick Ps. Pelliculosa. In some patches you could not observe any bluing at all and you could consume a pound without any effect. In other patches, specimens blued as much as Liberty caps and were quite active when consumed.

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4084833 - 04/22/05 11:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What state do you live in?

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Offlinefindaway29
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: CptnGarden]
    #4084851 - 04/22/05 11:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomieOfDoomie said:
panaeolus subbalteatus and panaeolina foenisecii look very similar in resemblance, if your all finding these blue staining foes why aren't you posting pictures of them? all of you could be as famous as mj if you could prove that foes can be active, or even discover a new species. Post some pictures of these blue staining foes and have MJ identify them, im sure they are just subbs.





like i said, they were my first introduction to mushrooms last year and i do have pics but they are to big to put on here. i later learned how to change the size on the camera but then the mushrooms were gone. I emailed them to gumby and asked him to make them smaller but i guess he got to busy. i know the differnce between the 2.

Edited by findaway29 (04/22/05 12:27 PM)

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4084872 - 04/22/05 12:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I live in a state in the intermountain/northwest that isn't coastal. Sorry for being vague, just a paranoid habit.

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4084891 - 04/22/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I also want to add that there are many people that post on this message board that know one heck of alot more than I do concerning mycology. That's evident from my reading of their posts. So I certainly could be wrong about some of my conclusions and I want to keep an open mind about it.

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4085530 - 04/22/05 03:46 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

you said: you could consume a pound without any effect. In other patches, specimens blued as much as Liberty caps and were quite active when consumed.


if you eat a pound of any fresh mushrooms you'll probably end up feeling kind of sick.
a pound is a lot

and liberty caps dont readily exhibit 'bluing', so you might be thinking another mushroom

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #4086090 - 04/22/05 06:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hate to differ with you but most specimens of P. Semilanceata will exhibit some bluing when the stem is broken or bruised. The caps also show some bluing when drying. It is not as pronounced as P.cyans,P.baeocystis, or some of the others and it somtimes is slow to blue after bruising but it's there.
Regards.

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4086122 - 04/22/05 07:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm excited to see the pictures sent to Gumby.. that will clear this whole thing up :smile:

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Offlinefindaway29
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4086150 - 04/22/05 07:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i sent them last year when i first started posting here. if he still has them then it'll be a miracle.

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InvisibleGumby
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: findaway29]
    #4086540 - 04/22/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Chances are I was probably overloaded with school work (seems to be the case 99% of the time) or my spam filter caught the email. I check my shroomery account earlier today and I haven't recieved anything on there in... shit.. probably a month or two :P

If you'll send them again to gumby@shroomery.org I'll be sure to resize and upload ASAP.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: Gumby]
    #4086696 - 04/22/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

libertycaps i pick almost always blue. usually quite intensely.

and as for pan subbs,



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Offlinecanid
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4087201 - 04/23/05 12:29 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

MJ: you have to understand taht i am refering to Panaeolina as a sub-group of Panaeolus, and not treating it as a seperate genus, though it may be incongruous with the current arrangement.

my point is that there are no recognized species of Panaeolina containing psilocybian compounds, and it is always possible that there is an undescribed species in need of a new taxon.

the fact is that in this case, if the spores are roughened and brown, they are Panaeolina, and blueing does not make any difference, except to exclude them from P. foenisecii.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: canid]
    #4088082 - 04/23/05 10:19 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The Panaolina mushrooms found to contain psilocine were what is known as a false positive.

Panaeolina is not a panaeolus mushroom because it has brown spores not black as in the genus Panaeolus,which belong to the Coprinaceaea. And there are four species of Panaeolina and none are psychoactive or contain any psilocine or psilocybine although they contain other non-active trytamines, as do most Panaeolus sp.

Copelandia mushrooms would be closer to a sub-genus of Panaeolus because of their black spores.

You should read my paper with Merlin on Panaolina from the Yearbook of Ethnomedicine and the Study of Consciousness vol. 1. It is here in the Shroomeries FAQ pages.

Also to bring up another urban legend and myth.

Two female writers for High Times, Lynn and Judy Osborne, writing under the pseudonyms of Brolyn, wrote a lengthy article for High Times called "America's Home Harvest: Panaeolina foenisecii."

They showed some images of some mutated foenisecii mushrooms, gave them a non-existing mushroom name and said they were all over America in the spring and you could get high off of them. IT was a BS article.

High Times also advertised a full page add for some company offereing four Shitkae mushrooms for $25.00 as magic shrooms.

But P. foenisecii is not a psychoactive psilocine/psilocybine containing mushroom.

All of the reports of activity came from a separate analysis out of several hundred conducted after the findings of the paper by Robbers, Tyler and Ola'h, and refutiated all claims of psychoactivity in the species.

This was the single paper which led many guides to list this species as a psychoactive species.

Robbers, J. E., Tyler, V. E., and G.-M. Ola'h. 1969. Additional evidence supporting the occurrence of psilocybin in Panaeolus foenisecii. Lloydia vol. 32:399-400.

In the above listed study, three collections of Panaeolus foenisecii were analyzed for indole content. For further information regarding the alleged psychoactivity of Panaeolus foenisecii, see Allen and Merlin, 1992c.

Gary Lincoff said the west coast varieties were not active and David Arora claimed that the east coast varieties were, yet neither had conducted any chemical analysis of the species from their region to varify or confirm their alledged claims.

Even Pollock assumed it was psychoactive and wrote about it in his paper, as did Ott and later Singer.

The same is true of the mis-identified Panaeolus sphinctrinus which Schultes and Reko first identified as a Panaeolus mushroom used in ritual ceremonies. Later Singer found Psilocybe mexicana speciemens in the original Schultes and Reko collections at Harvard's Farlow herbarium.

And Schultes in a personal Communication to me on several ocassions said that the mushroom is not psychoactive and was misidentified, yet, the error of the id of that species remains in the new updated edition of "Plants of the Gods" by R. E. Schultes and A. Hofmann and re-edited with a little new info by Christian Rtsch. And also in Schultes' Hallucinogenic plants book, as a mushroom used by the Mazatec Indians in ritual ceremonies and that is not true.

Anyway, once again I reiterate, Panaeolina foenisecii is not a psilocybin containing mushroom.


And very rarely in ther PNW do liberty caps show hardly any bluing whatsoever. They also seem to be one of the species whiich holds their potency the most. Spedimens analysed from an 1851 colelction from London werre found to be as potent as recently picked liberty caps were from the same year of analysis., but then again they rarely stain blue here.

And that is only from improper picking of them by squeezing the stems when lifting them from the grasses they are attached to.

mj

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4088311 - 04/23/05 12:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I don?t think I would ever be so bold as to say that P. foenisecii is never psychoactive, ever, never has been, never will be, etc. That is too bold of a statement (and unscientific) in the light of some evidence, however small, that under certain conditions in some rare instances a blue staining psychoactive group of foenisecii specimens can occur. I found these in one and only one instance: a blue staining, most definitely active (guess how that was discovered) brown spored foenisecii that had every other identifying characteristic of p. foenisecii, growing in a lawn where nonactive foenisecii grew for years . I am not making reference to their existence from past literature only from experience. Perhaps it was a rarely occurring specie (not foenisecii) that has these identifying characteristics. I really don?t know.

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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4088394 - 04/23/05 12:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

panaeolina has brown spores because of the roughened testure of the spores, not warranting a new genus imo.

i will say again, as you do not listen much: there are no PUBLISHED species within Panaeolina containing psilocybian compounds, and this does *NOT* mean that none exist wisch should belong there.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: canid]
    #4088586 - 04/23/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

HI, because of misidentification of species, many other species have also been suggested as psychoactive with psilocybian properties, including an African published paper in a prestigeous journal which reports Chlorophyllum molybdites as a mushroom which causes one to see and hear voices.

However, this also is apparently a misidentification since it is already regcognized as a poisonous species in the americas and most of the world.

And Panaeolus subbalteatus is some stages the gill plates look reddish brown which akes them appear to be brown spored to the unobserved eye.

I have shown photos of deadly Galerina autumnalis mushrooms to people who tried to convince me they had tripped on them before.

And as much as you frequent here you do know that many people see pur[ple stains rather than blue, see colors that are not there, etc.

ANd bluing only shows the presence of psilocine in mushrooms, not there potencies.

And remember that Panaeolina was also known as a Psathyrella and a psilocybe, besides Panaeolus and Panaeolina. The genus Psilocybe also use to include most Deconica, Naematoloma and even Stropharia.

And many of the Psilocybe characteristics of the genera can be seen in Agrocybe and Galerina and other species. It would never be called a sub-genus of Panaeolus because of its roughened brown sproes.

Have a shroomy day,

mj

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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4089492 - 04/23/05 06:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i am aware of the frequency of misidentifications, even in collections for assay and understand how people can misinterpret spore print color [especialy when the color ois assumed from merely looking at the mature gills. luckily, i our case, we can be sure if a print is taken.

i ca not speak for bearmtn, but in the course of my finding brown-spored mushrooms wich i had taken for Panaeolina foenisecii and wich exhibited a blueing of the basal mycellia, i have printed them to be certain.

i understand that there is no evidence to support my claims, as i did not post spore prints of the ones i found when first i posted pictures, but there is a brown spored mushroom wich occurrs on lawns and contains some indole-derivative or other compounds wich oxidise deep sky blue at the bases of the stipes. this is all i can say for sure.

image:


the full-sized image seems to have been lost during one of the bb/server changes


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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Offlinebearmtn
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: canid]
    #4089799 - 04/23/05 08:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

These Foenisecii-like specimens had brown spore print and blued on stems and caps when bruised, not just at the base of stipes. Bluing was not immediate as the P. cyans I have picked but slower. Definite psilocybin/psilocin type activity. Growing on well maintained lawn in mid August at 85+ F daytime temp. Not typical Pan. Subb. conditions.
Just an unusual and interesting find, for me anyway, after years of examining pychoactive fungi in the Pacific and Intermountain West. Not anything to argue or disagree on, just food for discussion.
Regards

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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4089870 - 04/23/05 08:40 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I once read about a woman tripping after eating Laetiporus sulphureus, which is is a known nonactive edible. If a chicken mushroom can freak out and produce psilocybin et all, then I suppose any mushroom could. It would be friggin awesome if someone could isolate an active pan foen.

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Offlinefindaway29
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: shroomydan]
    #4091781 - 04/24/05 02:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

it'll never happen.

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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: bearmtn]
    #4456229 - 07/26/05 03:43 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I have also found what I believe i Panaeolus Foenisecii on my (and others) lawn. I have compared the ones I found with pics on the net and every time I watch a pic I am convinced that it is Panaeolus Foenisecii I have found. what I want to know is how to be sure is is not a poisonous species and if it is "active" (hallucinogenic?)


--------------------
theShade

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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: theshade]
    #4456234 - 07/26/05 03:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

how do I know it is the correct (a hallucinogenic) mushroom from the print?


--------------------
theShade

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Offlineavionando
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Re: Panaeolus Foenisecii activity [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4457251 - 07/26/05 08:12 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

When I was younger living in So Cal I was determined to find active species. Never found anything active but found many many P. Foenisecii. I collected them by the dozens determined to find ones that were active. Many of them showed mild bluing at the base of the stem where mycelium was still atached. Consuming these mushrooms, even in large quantities never effected us in any way. Didn't matter wether they showed bluing or not. New species seem to be discovered all the time who can really say baermtn wasn't finding something that we have not.

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