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Now, I'm in the long process of re-learning what I un-learned.

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read zen mind, beginners mind

if you're on that trip now,
you'll dig it

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A respected Zen master in Japan and founder of the San Francisco Zen Center, Shunryu Suzuki has blazed a path in American Buddhism like few others. He is the master who climbs down from the pages of the koan books and answers your questions face to face. If not face to face, you can at least find the answers as recorded in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, a transcription of juicy excerpts from his lectures. From diverse topics such as transience of the world, sudden enlightenment, and the nuts and bolts of meditation, Suzuki always returns to the idea of beginner's mind, a recognition that our original nature is our true nature. With beginner's mind, we dedicate ourselves to sincere practice, without the thought of gaining anything special. Day to day life becomes our Zen training, and we discover that "to study Buddhism is to study ourselves." And to know our true selves is to be enlightened.

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bi0 said:

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Now, I'm in the long process of re-learning what I un-learned.

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read zen mind, beginners mind

if you're on that trip now,
you'll dig it

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A respected Zen master in Japan and founder of the San Francisco Zen Center, Shunryu Suzuki has blazed a path in American Buddhism like few others. He is the master who climbs down from the pages of the koan books and answers your questions face to face. If not face to face, you can at least find the answers as recorded in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, a transcription of juicy excerpts from his lectures. From diverse topics such as transience of the world, sudden enlightenment, and the nuts and bolts of meditation, Suzuki always returns to the idea of beginner's mind, a recognition that our original nature is our true nature. With beginner's mind, we dedicate ourselves to sincere practice, without the thought of gaining anything special. Day to day life becomes our Zen training, and we discover that "to study Buddhism is to study ourselves." And to know our true selves is to be enlightened.

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Yes! i loved this book. It really captures the essence poeticly without going into the realms of the intellect. It seemed to me like such a pure experession of what Buddhism means and how to practice sincerly without running into the obstacles of knowlege. It was a real eye opener for me, as i have a tendency to intellectualize my experience even directly after meditation sessions  . Excellent book, much respect! 

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bi0 said:

learyfan: do you think language is what led you astray?

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Egghead,

You wondered where I got the idea from that at S&P people present Buddhism as "THE WAY".

That's one example.

I questioned it's teachings through you in another thread and you said that Buddhism acknowledges all ways.

So why does someone who studies/practices it act as if someone who doesn't practice it, was lead astray if all ways are the way? There would be nothing to be lead astray from if Buddhism WAS actually all encompassing in Bios understanding of it.

It would be all-ways and straying would be impossible (as it actually is) That's one reason why I hinted at the limitations it is presented here with.

Lead astray from what and into what else? hats 2 separate things. That's also why I said it's "presented" as a dualistic teaching.

It's been reading Jehovah's Witness type comments like the one Bio just made for almost a year here that lead to my questioning it's teachings through you in the bliss/suffering post.

It can get almost creepy from some like they have been brainwashed by a religious cult.

Ultimately, Buddhism is a religion so I guess it's not unrealistic to hear stuff like that from its devotees.

This is also a religious forum so............I just wanted to point out this example so you would understand the perspective I was coming from better. It's sort of funny really.

No offense Bio, I know you were just wondering what made Leary get turned off by it if he ever even was turned on by it as he said, he doesn't do religions.

Some people just explore freely without disciplines and guidelines and simply live life without needing labels, definitions, a right and wrong rule book or directions for everything. Some let their hearts be the guide. Some follow the beat of a more cosmic drummer within. That may seem scary for some but its not for everyone. It's actually very liberating from the traditional confines for the ones who do because the mitations of the labels, definitions guidelines yada yada have been removed.

ALL ways will get you there because there is no where else to go.  You can go into a delusive lack of the all but you are still there, just in limited perception of it. That's not a bad things as you can see what its made of better. As long as you realize you are just in limited focus of the big picture and not separate from it, there is no fear or suffering even in lack perception and experience then.  Always

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I questioned it's teachings through you in another thread and you said that Buddhism acknowledges all ways.

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So why does someone who studies/practices it act as if someone who doesn't practice it, was lead astray if all ways are the way? There would be nothing to be lead astray from if Buddhism WAS actually all encompassing in Bios understanding of it.

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Lead astray from what and into what else? hats 2 separate things. That's also why I said it's "presented" as a dualistic teaching.

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It's been reading Jehovah's Witness type comments like the one Bio just made for almost a year here that lead to my questioning it's teachings through you in the bliss/suffering post.

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It can get almost creepy from some like they have been brainwashed by a religious cult.

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No offense Bio, I know you were just wondering what made Leary get turned off by it if he ever even was turned on by it as he said, he doesn't do religions.

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Some people just explore freely without disciplines and guidelines and simply live life without needing labels, definitions, a right and wrong rule book or directions for everything. Some let their hearts be the guide. Some follow the beat of a more cosmic drummer within. That may seem scary for some but its not for everyone. It's actually very liberating from the traditional confines for the ones who do because the mitations of the labels, definitions guidelines yada yada have been removed.

ALL ways will get you there because there is no where else to go. You can go into a delusive lack of the all but you are still there, just in limited perception of it. That's not a bad things as you can see what its made of better. As long as you realize you are just in limited focus of the big picture and not separate from it, there is no fear or suffering even in lack perception and experience then.

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I said that is how it can come across when things like "what lead you astray" are said.

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It's just semantics and misunderstandings that can come from them that can turn people off to something if it sounds limiting or separating yourself from others in a self righteous way.

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I talk all sorts of this and that and only reflect on myself. When you speak in representation of something how you do casts a reflection on to it as well.

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For anyone pro Buddha, I am giving you all stuff to watch for so as not to isolate people from Buddhism or turn people off from it and to keep it more relatable to the masses.

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Thank you for your teachings Oh Wise One 

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You can answer all of your questions to me for yourself. Whatever you decide my answers are is fine with me. You can put the words "I dunno" or "I was wrong and you are right in my mouth". I can tell from what you wrote, you already did that anyway. Quit giving your power away to me because, I really don't want it. It's easy to do. Just quit giving anything I said the value of meaning to you.

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I have no concern to be taken seriously by you only because I was writing to egghead. Look at who my reply was to and who I addressed it to. I only used something you said as an example of something he and I were discussing in another thread.

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If you are okay with using the phrase , "what lead you astray from the religion" then whats the problem?

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If you are concerned about your reputation here, or if this is an ego thing try using the detachment teachings on this. They are some of the really good ones.

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gettinjiggywithit said:
Thats why it pays to read. It's a great feeling when you see someone else articulate them for you. It revives and refreshes the subject for you as you can get a handle on it through the articulation.

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gettinjiggywithit said:

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bi0 said:

learyfan: do you think language is what led you astray?

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Egghead,

You wondered where I got the idea from that at S&P people present Buddhism as "THE WAY".

Yes i do wonder where you got this idea, please tell me. Just because i follow the Buddhist "WAY" doesn't mean that i think it is the only "WAY". Why are you being so antagonistic?

That's one example.

What is?

I questioned it's teachings through you in another thread and you said that Buddhism acknowledges all ways.

You cant question what you know nothing about. In the other post you demonstrated your total lack of understanding about Buddhism and i corrected you, you didn't ask many questions really, all you did was make untrue remarks and comments based upon misinformation. Yes Buddhism does acknowledge all ways, in fact Shunru Suzuki wrote another book which crosses the divide between Buddhism and Christianity.

So why does someone who studies/practices it act as if someone who doesn't practice it, was lead astray if all ways are the way? There would be nothing to be lead astray from if Buddhism WAS actually all encompassing in Bios understanding of it.

What? Please make some sense!

It would be all-ways and straying would be impossible (as it actually is) That's one reason why I hinted at the limitations it is presented here with.

Um no, would you consider the way of a murdering, rapist and child molester to be a valid way to enlightenment? I would have to say that such a person had strayed from his way But seriously you can fall into Nihilistic or Eternalistic views which are extremes, not falling into extremes is essential for realization 

Lead astray from what and into what else? hats 2 separate things. That's also why I said it's "presented" as a dualistic teaching.

The mind has the tendency through distraction to lead one on many philosophical and intellectual ramblings, your nature never strays but distraction makes you forget it. From the highest point of view, its not at all dualistic, from the lowest vehicles it can be at first, but that's only because its where we are now, living a a dualistic condition, so the lower vehicles start from their. But at the end of the day, ones awareness is needed whatever practice is applied and the result all depends on the individuals capacity to learn and apply the teaching.

It's been reading Jehovah's Witness type comments like the one Bio just made for almost a year here that lead to my questioning it's teachings through you in the bliss/suffering post.

Umm well your questioning on the Bliss/suffering post was based on a total perversion and misunderstanding of Buddhism. So i suggest you do some reading

It can get almost creepy from some like they have been brainwashed by a religious cult.

Ultimately, Buddhism is a religion so I guess it's not unrealistic to hear stuff like that from its devotees.

Some people can go to extremes with Buddhism, but that is a human error and not an error of the teachings themselves. Also some people consider Buddhism a religion, others a philosophy, others a psychology of mind, others purely a spiritual path, again this depends very much on the individual, the great thing about Buddhism is that it accounts for all people of all capacities.

This is also a religious forum so............I just wanted to point out this example so you would understand the perspective I was coming from better. It's sort of funny really.

I find it sad more than anything that your perspective is so uneducated and baseless

No offense Bio, I know you were just wondering what made Leary get turned off by it if he ever even was turned on by it as he said, he doesn't do religions.

Some people just explore freely without disciplines and guidelines and simply live life without needing labels, definitions, a right and wrong rule book or directions for everything. Some let their hearts be the guide. Some follow the beat of a more cosmic drummer within. That may seem scary for some but its not for everyone. It's actually very liberating from the traditional confines for the ones who do because the limitations of the labels, definitions guidelines yada yada have been removed.

Good, that's great if someone can do that, and i have much respect for people who do it and actually have some realizations. But its difficult not to fall into extremes of eternal-ism and nihilism without proper guidance.

ALL ways will get you there because there is no where else to go.  You can go into a delusive lack of the all but you are still there, just in limited perception of it. That's not a bad things as you can see what its made of better. As long as you realize you are just in limited focus of the big picture and not separate from it, there is no fear or suffering even in lack perception and experience then.  Always

Whatever you like to think jiggy. Peace

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gettinjiggywithit said:
So it looks like you read a lot on Zen and Buddhism. When are you going to start practicing it?

I can just so not picture Buddha throwing the hissy fit you are now.

Remember your bliss, the rest is just an illusion. Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm

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eheh, thats what i was thinkin 

edit ; thx for the link to the zen book bi0

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bi0 said:
I am not perfect - never said I was. I have been avoiding these types of arguments, but your comments were too unfounded.

Yes its difficult not to reply when someone is so flagrantly ignorant of the facts.

All I am doing is asking you to back up your ridiculous statements (which you seem completely unable to). Once again: what comments of mine in my entire S&P history do you consider "Jehovah's Witness type"? Where on Earth did you come up with this idea? Please provide links.

No she can't back up anything, she may be making all of it up off the top of her head, like some false ego manifestation. But hell, what do i know, maybe she's just beyond us all?

If you continue to dodge this question and point fingers elsewhere, I think it is fair to believe that you were wrong but lack the integrity and humility to simply say so. #

Yes she could'nt admit that she was mistaken on the bliss/suffering thread either, instead she made up some excuse or rationalization to save face by implying that she conciously created a false ego persona, or something silly to that affect

All of which is very amusing indeed. I am now laughing jiggy, so you can't say "Why arent you laughing"  

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