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Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: Traveller]
    #411042 - 10/02/01 08:08 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

With all due respect to Shroomism, Traveler, I have to warn you against diving into the realm of his beliefs the way you seem to be doing. Just a little bit of formal knowledge of modern science (and I am not talking about popular representation thereof, I am talking about formal mathematics behind it and such) would tell one how absurd _some_ of his statements are.

Personally, I am playing devils advocate here, because myself I don't put much stock in science. On the other hand, I have had a good deal of formal education in matters such as Einstein's theories and other phisics and coming from that angle Shroomism is, well..., not quite plausible. This, however, is not to say that I am appealing to science or scientifical reasoning as the authoritative and decisive source of truth on these matters. Furthermore, I do firmly believe in doctrines alternative to science which are simply an alternative outlook on the universe (as in the sufi story about the elefant). However, if one is claiming scientific knowledge, he should at least take the time to learn what "scientific" means.

I will make a stronger statement now. Shroomism is, technically speaking, a cult leader. He is careful to present himself in such a way as to distinguish himself from a closed-off nature of a cult, and he is careful to keep his statements sounding peaceful on the surface. But make no mistake about it. Doctrines which do not rely on personal experience are cults, because blind belief is the only alternative to personal experience. And make no mistake about these other several points:

1. Claims about others' personal experience do not substitute for personal experience.
2. Some resonance between your own preexisting beliefs and the cultist doctrine does not validate the whole of the cultist doctrine.

Look at this from another perspective. "The disaster is coming to you, to be saved you must subscribe to my beliefs, because I KNOW the truth". Do you recognize this? Has this sort of reasoning _ever_ been more then a cult?

I must say now this. The nature of this warning is in no way intended to discredit Shroomism as an individual nor do I mean any disrespect to the beliefs he holds. I am here to provide an alternative viewpoint, with understanding that it matterns not a slightest freegin' bit.

----
You punish God, not the other way around.

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Anonymous

Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: gribochek]
    #411455 - 10/02/01 04:36 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

>.Look at this from another perspective. "The disaster is coming to you, to be saved you must subscribe to my beliefs, because I KNOW the truth". Do you recognize this? Has this sort of reasoning _ever_ been more then a cult?

That's understandable..but look at it from my perspective. The disaster is coming to everyone on Earth, and we all will go through it. There are two options, and excuse me for being blunt..you can either find the creator that resides within everyone and evolve emotionally, spiritually, physically, and mentally, and stay with the Earth as it shifts into a higher frequency..or you can choose to stay in the 3rd dimension. That's fine if you wish to stay in the 3rd dimension, not everyone is ready for the 4th.. but you won't be living on Earth in the 3rd dimension. The 3rd dimension will be wiped clean, same thing that happened with Noah's Ark, for the same reason Atlantis sunk under the ocean, and for the same reason so many ancient civilizations are so hard to find.

>>Personally, I am playing devils advocate here, because myself I don't put much stock in science. On the other hand, I have had a good deal of formal education in matters such as Einstein's theories and other phisics and coming from that angle Shroomism is, well..., not quite plausible. This, however, is not to say that I am appealing to science or scientifical reasoning as the authoritative and decisive source of truth on these matters. Furthermore, I do firmly believe in doctrines alternative to science which are simply an alternative outlook on the universe (as in the sufi story about the elefant). However, if one is claiming scientific knowledge, he should at least take the time to learn what "scientific" means.

Science...especially human science, is far from perfect. The word itself bring upon images of hundreds of years of ignorant practices. Define "scientific"

So I am now a cult leader? Interesting theory. Far be it from me to label myself in such a fashion. What criteria must one fall under in order to be a "cult leader"?
If that is how you choose to view me, then I will not try and stop you. Thus far I have been called delusional, psychotic, a budding sci-fi novelist, a danger to others, and suffering from the messiah complex. Now we can add cult leader to the list.

I was unaware that it was such a crime to spread truthful information in an attempt to expand consciousness. Well, actually I did.. I knew all about this before I took this job. I was told that I must be prepared to be laughed at, labeled as insane, called a cult leader, etc.. but that is why I took this job in the first place, it's difficult.
So go ahead and laugh, call me a danger to society.. I understand your aggressions towards me, and I thank you for them.
Just keep in mind that I haven't the slightest malevolent thought dancing around in my mind. I know what I am, and I know what I need to do.
My purpose is to release negative emotions from others, to make room for the unconditional love that awaits.
Throw your stones, my message remains.


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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: gribochek]
    #411541 - 10/02/01 05:43 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

yeah thanks for the warning, but i'm not about to jump into anyones beliefs here. i just think it's interesting and great fun that there are people like this who really do believe this stuff (or do they?).


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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: ]
    #411585 - 10/02/01 06:25 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

>>Thus far I have been called delusional, psychotic, a budding sci-fi novelist, a danger to others, and suffering from the messiah complex. Now we can add cult leader to the list.

Look, they're just calling you L Ron Hubbard... that's not so bad is it... is it? Sorry, felt like trying to lighten the mood :).



--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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OfflineMighty Bop
Big Boy

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1,994
Loc: Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: MokshaMan]
    #411636 - 10/02/01 07:15 PM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Dag-nab-it Swami what was up with that cal-dern Jonestown cult?



--------------------
I got a buddy with United Fruit, get ya started...

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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: ]
    #412049 - 10/03/01 01:17 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

right on shroomie!

again i'll say that i like the way you write, and i agree that from your perspective if you really do know what you claim to know then you've got to tell people about it right? and after all you still have to work within this 19 year old human body right? so good luck to you my friend. i'm always glad to hear the world described in new ways, and so far none of what you've said strikes me as being impossible.

Before i was warned against believing you I asked some questions, quite a few questions...i'd still love to hear what you have to say about daoist immortals, the rainbow serpent, the vedas and indian epics like the ramayana (if you know of it - what about hanuman and the monkey people that fought with Rama against Ravana and his demons?)...more when i think of it.

I don't believe anything except that there is a body here and "I" seem to be controlling it....


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: ]
    #412130 - 10/03/01 04:34 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

I was unaware that it was such a crime to spread truthful information in an attempt to expand consciousness. Well, actually I did..

Now we can add schizophrenic to the list.

I was told that I must be prepared to be laughed at, labeled as insane, called a cult leader, etc.. but that is why I took this job in the first place, it's difficult...

Throw your stones, my message remains.


Plus we can add martyr.

There is nothing to distinguish your "message" from all the other voices of wounded children screaming for attention.

Note the difference between your message and mine:

Shroomism: I have special knowledge and you don't (classic megalomania), but I will share it with you to lead you to the light.

Swami: Find your own truth.

Which method is enabling and which is disabling?

Which is an [u]ego-based[/u] message and which message has nothing to do with the personality of the poster?









--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: Swami]
    #412189 - 10/03/01 06:52 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

dude why are you attacking him like this? sure he's spouting some weird sounding shit but isn't that a good thing? or do you think everyone that believes or thinks they know something others don't should keep their head down and their mouth shut? what if young shroomism is actually some kind of enlightened individual (I am NOT saying that he is, i'm saying "what if")?? jesus was obviously a megalomaniac, buddha wasn't afraid of saying that he had attained complete understanding of reality....all of the great teachers we know of are remembered because they were prepared (because they were KIND enough) to TEACH!! instead of just sitting by themselves in the mountains alone in their own blissful enlightenment.

Shroomism: I have special knowledge and you don't (classic megalomania), but I will share it with you to lead you to the light.

Swami: Find your own truth.

so far that is the first time i've heard you say that, all you've been saying is "everyone watch out this guy's a psycho".

why can't you just relax and let the shroomers talk about their aliens and their 4th dimensions and whatnot....call me a hippy but isn't it all about peace and love and stuff?



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Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: ]
    #412222 - 10/03/01 07:52 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Shroomism, like I said, I will not argue your beliefs, because, in all honesty I do not know whether they are true or not. Nor am I calling you psychotic, danger to society or any other of such things. I use the words "cult leader" in a technical sense without attributing any value to it one way or another.

I think that it is possible that you really believe in all of what you say. I even think that there might be some seed of what? truth? to what you say -- well, really, I don't believe in truth at all, I see what I see, blah, blah, blah -- some seed that is of value, let's put it this way, in what you say.

Now let me explain something about your doctrine. Once again, upfront, I must emphasize that I am not trying to prove that it is dangerous, psychotic or any other thing like this. Just making some parallels to what history has shown us in the past.

In times of The Inquisition horrible things (as we all, I hope, agree) have been done to people. The people who tortured and then burned hundreds of innocent souls, where they animals, I ask? Where they stupid? Where they controlled by some evil force? Well, it is quite clear that they were neither, that they were, in fact, very compassionate and kind. How so, you ask? Well, it is simply because they believed a certain doctrine (Believed, capital B, no doubts, same way we believe that air is essential to survival) that said that Hell is infinitely more horrible then any horrors that can possibly be experienced here on earth. They reasoned, then, primitively speaking, that a sinner is up for a terrible future. And I mean horrific! Well, if I see somebody who is, due to ignorance, making some trouble for himself, it is my duty to help him, right? Now, faced with the horrors of hell, what method is too harsh to be used? None, I say. None at all. If at the last moment of his waking consciousness while burning at the stake the sinner changes his sinful beliefs he is saved, right?

Keep following my reasoning now. All of this has started with the Bible! As much as christians may start arguing now, the inquisitors where using the letter of the Bible and their best judgement to do all those horrible things. Yet, Christ, was all about peace, harmony and enlightenment, right? Well, so are you, all about peace, harmony and enlightenment! Except that at some point down the road, either you personally or your followers will forget where they are coming from and start killing, say, cats, believing they are evil alien incarnates. And well may it be that they are, at least mine for sure is, but what does this have to do with enlightenment, peace and harmony? Being afraid of anything, anything at all, for example, being afraid of not being able to get to the 4-th dimention, is not peace and harmony. Peace is when you are NOT afraid. Even if surrounded by evil aliens, peace is not when you know how to kill them, peace is when you know that you shouldn't really bother.



----
You punish God, not the other way around.

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InvisibleAlone In The Fire
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/03/00
Posts: 1,004
Loc: vanderbilt university/nas...
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: gribochek]
    #412320 - 10/03/01 09:51 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

bwhahahahaha........how can any of you all actually believe a word out of "shroomism"?!?!?!?!.....he does the exact same thing all psychos like the one in waco, jonestown, and haleys comet.....the things he doesnt know/understand are things which he deems "cant be told yet"...all other things are theories which anybody is capable of or just plain research by using such tools as an internet or encyclopedia.....my god some of you all are gullible(and stupid for that matter...)



--------------------
3DShroom is a bitch

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Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: Alone In The Fire]
    #412325 - 10/03/01 10:00 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

Alone, I am indeed gullible and stupid, thanks for reminding me.

So you understand the psycho's mind so well, yes? You must have even been in one's head. You must then know that feeling of peaceful rightness with which one goes to kill himself knowing without a shadow of doubt that this is for the higher good? You must know the feeling one gets after years of struggling with other's opinions, knowing the futility of it but not being able to stop? You must, know how frightening and scary it is to _really_ question a belief which caused you to kill another person, or, may be just caused you to quit your job. You must then know all those things. Well, good for you. You must be just another Freud or something.

----
You punish God, not the other way around.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: Traveller]
    #412341 - 10/03/01 10:19 AM (22 years, 6 months ago)

why can't you just relax and let the shroomers talk about their aliens and their 4th dimensions and whatnot....call me a hippy but isn't it all about peace and love and stuff?

Your intentions are good, but this is not about attacking someone nor taking the fun away. If you read all of my posts, then you know my motivation. I had some friends up in Rajneeshpurham(sp?) in Oregon. They were sure that the Rajneesh was an elnlightened master. EVen when they started carrying automatic weapons around the commune, these lost souls rationalized it. Teh 18 ROlls ROyces were necessary for the Raj - whatever.

I have no hostility personally towards shroomism, I just don't want to see people get hurt.

WAKE UP AND THINK FOR YOURSELVES!








--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMighty Bop
Big Boy

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1,994
Loc: Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Heaven's Gate Cult [Re: Swami]
    #488614 - 12/12/01 11:46 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

OK I finally found out about the Jonestown cult. A man named Jim Jones from San Francisco brought his followers to South America to continue practicing. Their name was The People's Temple. Eventually this guy thought he was Jesus, etc. and eventually persuaded over 900 people to drink purple Kool-Aid mixed with cyanide, tranquilizers and sedatives. It was one big mass suicide. A US congressman actually went down there to check out the cult before it happened, but he was murdered before he could get back home.

Here is a link to a site with some info....http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~reli291/Jonestown/Jonestown.html


--------------------
I got a buddy with United Fruit, get ya started...

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