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OfflineVALIS
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question: mycelium & substrate
    #4078456 - 04/20/05 06:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm having difficulty figuring out how to word my question - so please bear with me here...

Specifically, I'm trying to get a better handle on the process that goes on in myc as it learns/adapts to breaking down and absorbing different forms of nutrients/substrate; and how this may be applied to a liquid culture technique that would decrease colonization time when inoculated directly into compost.

Of course this is a chemical process that goes on, and as I understand it, myc needs a sort of adaptation period to the substrate that it is subjected to - correct?

How does the myc "learn" to absorb the nutrients from a new substrate medium?

And isn't it actualy less efficient/desirable to force the myc from going from grain to, say, compost - but yet that is the standard procedure for bulk.

It seems to me that it would be most optimal to get your myc adapted/acclimated to the target substrate at the earliest time possible, and to stick w/ that same substrate throughout the full cultivation cycle - from cradle to grave.

If the above assertion is true, then wouldn't adding a small measured amount of the target substrate to your liquid culture medium result in mycelium that is pre-disposed to more effectively/quickly colonize the target substrate - whether that substrate be grain or straw, or compost or whatever?

I'm thinking why use honey or karo as the base nutrient for LC, when you could use tea created from the same substrate material that you plan on fruiting with?

I've already got an experiment going:

3 LC bottles:

#1 - karo
#2 - karo w/ poo tea
#3 - karo, then later ( after germination ), poo tea will be added

I inoculated those w/ multi-spore solution two days ago and am monitoring their progress.

I'm interested primarily in seeing whether the LC w/ tea colonizes straight to poo more quickly than the LC w/ only karo.

Secondarily, I'm interested in seeing how well LC thrives w/ poo tea: whether mycelium forms healthier or quicker, and whether after germination and myc is forming/clumping in the culture, that the #3 LC shows positive growth after the tea is injected.

Finally, I've also inoculated a half-pint jar of pasteurized (unsterilized) poo/compost ( the same from which I made the tea ) with 2cc's straight uncolonized multi-spore solution ( same used in the LC )- and will be monitoring the progress of that as well.


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.

Edited by VALIS (04/21/05 06:43 PM)

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InvisibleTHEDANGLER
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4078819 - 04/20/05 08:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i remember reading a while back to add a little birdseed to your agar to help out in the spawn run...i really want to here more about this to..


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: THEDANGLER]
    #4079243 - 04/20/05 10:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

THEDANGLER said: i remember reading a while back to add a little birdseed to your agar to help out in the spawn run...




Ok cool - that sounds like the same basic thing I'm talking about: introduce the target substrate medium to the young developing mycelium before colonization of said mycelium into said target substrate. So, the above tip to use some birdseed w/ your agar makes sense -- _if_ you plan on spawning to wbs using that agar ( it wouldn't make sense if you were going to spawn the agar to brf or popcorn, for instance ).

But I'm guessing whatever source provided that tip, planned on using the wbs as spawn to poo... which at that point would break the strategy...


The following may very well come across as ignorant to many facts, but I'm just speculating from honest curiosity.

In my mind, if the target _fruiting_ substrate is, say, compost - then compost and compost-product should be used throughout the _entire_ cultivation process... for instance from agar, then agar-to-LC, then from LC-to-spawn and finally from spawn-to-fruiting-substrate.

Why put the mycelium through that adhoc battery of nutrient/substrate curveballs? From sugar ( agar and/or LC ), to grain ( spawn ), to compost ( bulk )???

Consider this:

1 - You create an agar plate, using either PDA or MEA...
2 - You select the most aggressive/healthy myc from the plate for transfer.

Well... you've just selected myc that is aggressive/healthy -- on potatoe dextrose or malt extract... _not_ on your target substrate... what good is that?

Somewhat lame, and potentialy ignorant analogy: If you were interested in finding talented hockey players, you'd want to choose from a group of people playing hocky - not from a group of people playing... baseball or something. And you wouldn't want your up-and-coming hockey team practicing baseball... you'd want them practicing hockey.

If you modify the agar recipe, to include some measured amount of the target fruiting substrate into the agar, then wouldn't it follow that whatever sector you selected to transfer would with certainty be best suited for your cultivation?


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.

Edited by VALIS (04/20/05 10:20 PM)

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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4079343 - 04/20/05 10:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

poo tea. tell us what that tastes like.

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: Abermelin]
    #4079465 - 04/20/05 11:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Abermelin said:poo tea. tell us what that tastes like.




I dunno... prolly like ass.

But, uh - it's not for me... it's for the mycelium.



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Offlinethenewguy05
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4081113 - 04/21/05 12:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So let me see if i have this right. your talking (this is just an example)like takeing pf cakes and breaking them up to do a bulk grow and adding brown rice flour to the bulk substrate???

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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: thenewguy05]
    #4081195 - 04/21/05 12:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i think he is more interested in "trainer supplements" in the culture phase. either agar or liquid.

your example, using pf cakes, has the flaw that uncolonised rice flour will quickly contaminate. a better idea is to include a small amount of the target substrtae in the pf cake.

Another idea might be to supplement millet jars, pre-inoculation, with straw powder. One might expect the straw-supplemented spawn to take to a straw bed more quickly than non-supplemented grain spawn.

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: thenewguy05]
    #4081302 - 04/21/05 01:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

thenewguy05 said:
So let me see if i have this right. your talking (this is just an example)like takeing pf cakes and breaking them up to do a bulk grow and adding brown rice flour to the bulk substrate???




Actually I'm talking the opposite... it appears in your example that your target fruiting substrate is bulk ( probably poo/compost/straw ). So if that's the case, then you would either:

A - ditch brf _altogether_ and go strictly w/ your target substrate throughout the whole cultivation ( i.e., say ( if compost was your target fruiting substrate ) - inject compost tea into your liquid culture, then use _compost_ as your cake or spawn ( _not_ brf ), then finally spawn/crumble your cake into the final bulk substrate.

B - an alternative would be to at least use some amount of the target substrate material as an additive in all stages... so, going with the same example above - you would add some compost tea to your karo LC bottle, and you would inject some amount of compost tea into your brf pf cakes and/or mix in an amount of compost into the brf, then finally you would break your cake into the final bulk compost -- at which point you would be confident knowing your myc has been pre-exposed to your bulk substrate medium. Kinda like sending your kid to pre-school, and then keeping them tutored as they progress.

I list B as an option because it may not always be possible to use the exact same substrate ( in some form or another ) from cradle to grave - but even a little bit of exposure would be beneficial, I think.

What I'm experimenting with right now, is specifically using compost through the entire process of a cultivation:


#1 - multi-spore solution injected into LC bottle, w/ compost tea as the primary nutritious medium ( karo was also added ).

#2 - the LC will be injected into a pf style half-pint jar not w/ brf, but with compost ( a "patty cake" ). [ it's my theory that the myc will tear through it much faster because it already knows how to break it down and absorb it effectively due to the "leg-up" so to speak it got while growing in the LC ]

#3 - the patty cake will be used as spawn into a larger tray of compost w/ a casing - kindofa small-scale super spawn. ( it's my theory again, that this final bulk substrate will be colonized extremely quickly and the fruits will be particularly healthy/potent due to the myc's total experience w/ that substrate material throughout it's entire life cycle )

( note that if I were beginning the process w/ an agar plate, then I would add some small measured amount of compost/compost-tea into the agar mix/recipe; then I'd place a wedge of this into the LC, rather than begin w/ multi-spore solution via syringe. )


Now, if your "target fruiting substrate" was straw... then you'd do the same basic process but with straw. If it was popcorn or wbs... then use popcorn or wbs the entire time. etc, etc. If you were merely doing pf style cakes w/ say, brf - then use "brf tea" in your LC...


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.

Edited by VALIS (04/21/05 01:18 PM)

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: debianlinux]
    #4081396 - 04/21/05 01:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:i think he is more interested in "trainer supplements" in the culture phase.




Yep - but not just the culture phase; but also the spawn.

The idea is that a generation of mushrooms in the wild don't change their diet... they stick with the same thing the whole time. It takes effort and time for myc to adapt to new medium or mediums during it's life-cycle - it is not efficient or natural.


Quote:

either agar or liquid.




Or both... i.e., wedge-into-LC .


Quote:

Another idea might be to supplement millet jars, pre-inoculation, with straw powder. One might expect the straw-supplemented spawn to take to a straw bed more quickly than non-supplemented grain spawn.




Exactly what I'm thinking. That's essentially the "B" option in my above post. However, why use millet jars if you're planning on fruiting w/ straw? ( there's obvious reasons why this is done, and obviously it works - but I think it would be most optimal to use entirely one substrate only. "well you can't use straw jars, becuase it's likely to contam"... my answer to that is a straw jar would be much less likely to contam if you inoculated that straw jar with mycelium which was already trained and predisposed toward a straw medium via previous exposure in LC and/or agar. And then when you spawned that straw jar to straw bulk - the same logic applies: the myc would likely tear through it in my theory )


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4081611 - 04/21/05 02:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

VALIS said:
However, why use millet jars if you're planning on fruiting w/ straw?



more inoculation points = faster overall colonisation. supplementing the millet with straw would still "train" the mycelium to be more ready for the coming straw.

Also, bear in mind that one of the biggest reasons for varying substrates is to maintain strain integrity. Not a big deal for a one-time run but it becomes increasingly more important the longer you try to specialise a strain.

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: debianlinux]
    #4081701 - 04/21/05 03:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:supplementing the millet with straw would still "train" the mycelium to be more ready for the coming straw.




Yes - that may be better than not supplementing ( again, "option B" ), but the theory is that going straight with a single substrate is most optimal and natural.


Quote:

Also, bear in mind that one of the biggest reasons for varying substrates is to maintain strain integrity. Not a big deal for a one-time run but it becomes increasingly more important the longer you try to specialise a strain.




You could still switch substrates for a single cultivation run every so often when developing/maintaining a strain.


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OfflineAeolus1369
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4094823 - 04/25/05 11:06 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

In bacteria at least, the presence of useful nutrients is quickly detected and can either directly affect transcription/translation of necessary metabolic enzymes or kicks off a signaling-cascade which eventually does the same.  The general process (which is quite quick) is probably the same in fungus and that would be how they "learn" to absorb nutrients from different substrates.


Quote:

I'm interested primarily in seeing whether the LC w/ tea colonizes straight to poo more quickly than the LC w/ only karo.




Just a thought: If the LC w/ tea does colonize faster, it may not necessarily be because you 'primed' the mycelia with a future substrate.  Perhaps the tea just makes for a more robust liquid culture that would colonize faster in general.  As a sub-experiment you could use two liquid cultures--one with tea, one without--to inoculate a non-poo substrate and compare colonization to rule out that possibility.

I'm eager to see your results...happy experimenting  :laugh:

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #4095065 - 04/25/05 12:47 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I got not much to add with this, just found it interesting. I've recently been adding a scoop of worm castings and maybe a scoop of horse poo too, to about 20 scoops of grain during the soak..then simmered in the same water. Little verm is added to soak up some of the poo/grain water too...I havnt really noticed a huge difference in spawn time but I have done any comparisons with it. Colonization is incredibly quick in quarts with the poo added to the grain, even the small amount. Spawn runs are also increibly quick. 20% spawn colonizes the poo in 4-7 days easy.. My bulk substrate contains hpoo and worm castings mostly...everything works out great so I plan on continuing. Now I'm thinking of adding poo to the liquid culture water though..

But then I look at incredibly great flushes that couldnt be better, comming from nothing so complicated..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #4095322 - 04/25/05 01:58 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Aeolus1369 said:
In bacteria at least, the presence of useful nutrients is quickly detected and can either directly affect transcription/translation of necessary metabolic enzymes or kicks off a signaling-cascade which eventually does the same. The general process (which is quite quick) is probably the same in fungus and that would be how they "learn" to absorb nutrients from different substrates.




Thanks - that was the sort of info I was looking for.

I went searching around but wasn't able to fine anything; probably due to the fact that I know so little about it, I'm having difficulty finding proper search keywords.

Anyone know of threads on the shroomery covering similar subject matter, or any papers/articles online?


Quote:

As a sub-experiment you could use two liquid cultures--one with tea, one without--to inoculate a non-poo substrate and compare colonization to rule out that possibility.




Yes - this is what I'm doing: I have three cultures:

#1 - karo
#2 - karo w/ poo tea
#3 - karo, then later ( after germination ), poo tea will be added

Oh - wait, you're saying to also try with a _non_ poo substrate.

That's a good idea, I'll go ahead and include that to make the experiment more complete.


Quote:

I'm eager to see your results...happy experimenting




Thanks, problem though I'm a bit worried about is that it's been a week now, and I see no signs of mycelium growth in any of my LC jars. Could be that I'm just being impatient, or maybe pan cyans are slow germinators or something. I'm certain I didn't biff the LC.
Hopefully I didn't get a bum syringe...


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4095360 - 04/25/05 02:10 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:But then I look at incredibly great flushes that couldnt be better, comming from nothing so complicated..




I've seen pics of some of those flushes of yours that you speak of, and I admit I have trouble thinking of how they could possibly get better!

I've been over analyzing things since I first started, though I have little to show for any of it! (c8=

Anyhow I'm mainly interested in this particular experiment because if it adds any extra boost whatsoever, then I think it's worth while - seeing as the extra effort involved is quite minimal, and may actualy make things more similar: one substrate, rather than two.


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Offlinexburn
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4095548 - 04/25/05 02:53 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

dont worry about it taking a bit to colonize your lc. Sometimes they take upwards of 2 weeks to show growth. Other times less than a week


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: xburn]
    #4095606 - 04/25/05 03:11 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

xburn said:dont worry about it taking a bit to colonize your lc.




Thanks for that - makes feel more at ease.

I did already post the question to mush. cult. though; wondering whether I should stop shaking and exposing to light as I monitor progress.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4095993 - 04/25/05 04:25 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

>I've seen pics of some of those flushes of yours that you speak of, and I admit I have trouble thinking of how they could possibly get better!

Mine actually could get a little better :smile: Agar's flushes are more the flushes I'm talking about :smile:

You know though, it could also weaken it. Kind of like how when you do agar plates, over multiple transfers to get an isolate, you dont want to stick with MEA the whole time or PDA, or whatever recipe...its better to switch to a different nutrient every few plates to keep the myceliums vigor. This makes me think that this might not even be a great thing if itdoes affect it all that much. I dont really think it does other then the added poo to the specific stage myself...thats why I do it, faster grain colonization...but I'll still be keeping an eye on this. At least your constantly thinking about new and different things :smile:


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4096302 - 04/25/05 05:26 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:Mine actually could get a little better :smile: Agar's flushes are more the flushes I'm talking about :smile:




Heheh!  (c8=


Quote:

You know though, it could also weaken it. Kind of like how when you do agar plates, over multiple transfers to get an isolate, you dont want to stick with MEA the whole time or PDA, or whatever recipe...its better to switch to a different nutrient every few plates to keep the myceliums vigor.




This is what debianlinux was warning me of.

But I'm not saying that you'd always use the same substrate in this "cradle-to-grave" (or whatever) technique for the whole life of a _strain_ - you'd still want to change up every so often as usual - this is for the whole life of a _cultivation_.

The main things I'm going on is that:

#1 shrooms don't switch their substrates mid-cycle in nature

#2 switching substrates does cause some amount of effort and energy for the myc

With that, I'm theorizing that having at least some degree of exposure to the fruiting substrate before being subjected to it would be beneficial - but more importantly, that sticking with the same substrate for the entire life cycle would be most optimal due to the 2 assertions above: it's more closer to what happens in the wild, and it avoids the extra energy/time/baggage of the myc having its substrate switched out from under it and needing to learn how to metabolize the new substrate - better effinciency.


Quote:

but I'll still be keeping an eye on this. At least your constantly thinking about new and different things :smile:




Thanks - let's hope my cultures aren't barren!

I'm guessing others could do my experiment for me before I've even gotten started!  <grinz>

Assuming my LC jars ever develop successfully, I'll put this experiment in a new thread as a grow log.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4096935 - 04/25/05 08:05 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

The original tip (at least for most of us) came from paul stamets. I know it's discussed in GG&MM, might be in TMC as well. A couple of points.

1. He does recomend including supplements of all the planned media from the beginning. His liquid media recipe therefore is not a simple sugar or karo media, but rather includes sawdust, powdered grain, bran, straw etc depending on the species and the planned mycelial expansion.

2. I've found it to be almost unnoticable. I guess maybe if you did a lot of repititions you might be able to see it statistically, but I don't think it will be obvious and I don't think you are doing enough replicates to verify the technique, just give it a little credit if it works and repeat it if it doesn't. It must work, stamets is world class, I have the utmost faith in him. It's just never been obvious to me without doing lots of replicates and doing inferential statistics.

3. The single substrate notion. Might be fine if you using a nutritious substrate like a whole grain for each step. But you can't use only, say straw. Well you could, but you certainly don't want to. Whatever benefit you may see from not forcing the mycelia to make the transition between food sources, you would loose due to the much lower nutrition. Also, spore or liquid inoculation of bulk substrates has proven very difficult on large scales.

So, stick with B, ditch A (unless you want to say use a pinch of WBS in your liquid, then shoot up WBS, fruit it or G2G it and fruit it, or similar substrate).
Good for you in actually doing an experiment. 5 shrooms for you.


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

Edited by mycofile (04/25/05 08:08 PM)

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #4097887 - 04/26/05 12:34 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

mycofile said:The original tip (at least for most of us) came from paul stamets.




Well that's a positive sign!



Quote:

I know it's discussed in GG&MM, might be in TMC as well.




I have TMC but I have not found any reference to this.  Is the discussion in GG&MM fairly involved, or just a vague passing mention? 

I'd really love to read some material covering this topic - but I don't exactly feel that I know what the correct subject keywords would be...  :confused:



Quote:

1.  His liquid media recipe therefore is not a simple sugar or karo media, but rather includes sawdust, powdered grain, bran, straw etc




Wow that's cool - so he's actualy recommending that "roughage" (non-liquid) material be included in the culture?  I figured I'd get laughed at for suggesting that, so I didn't mention it, even though I did purposely use un-strained/un-filtered compost tea.



Quote:

2.  I've found it to be almost unnoticable.  It's just never been obvious to me without doing lots of replicates and doing inferential statistics.




Well I was definitely hoping for something obvious, or at least noticable...  I'll still try anyhow though; I'll consider it a success just even if it works at all!  (c8=



Quote:

3.  The single substrate notion.  Might be fine if you using a nutritious substrate like a whole grain for each step.  Also, spore or liquid inoculation of bulk substrates has proven very difficult on large scales.




My plan is to use compost (w/ the addition of some extra shredded straw ) - I figure that's pretty well nutritious; and appears to simply be the best substrate medium available.

Regarding liquid innoc of bulk - I'll be using so-called "bulk substrate"... but I'll in no way be doing large-scale ( "bulk" ) cultivations.

So, I'll be using LC to inoculate jars of pasteurized compost, then I'll be growing some of those out as cakes ( for kicks ), and will also be using other similar jars as spawn to more compost - sort of a miniature/small-scale super spawn:

From TMC:
"Super spawning is also called "active mycelium spawning" vis-a-vis the Hunke-Till process. Essentially, a set amount of substrate is inoculated and colonized in the normal manner. The fully run substrate is then used as inoculum to spawn increased amounts of a similar substrate. One could theoretically pyramid a small quantity of inoculum into a considerable amount of fully colonized substrate. This technique requires the primary substrate to be contaminant free; otherwise contamination, not mycelium, will be propagated."



Quote:

So, stick with B, ditch A (unless you want to say use a pinch of WBS in  your liquid, then shoot up WBS, fruit it or G2G it and fruit it, or similar substrate).




The experiment is going to stick with A, as that is what I believe will prove most optimal. Replace WBS with compost in your above example, and you have exactly what I'm planning: "use a [measure] of [compost] in  your liquid, then shoot up [compost], fruit it or [super spawn] it and fruit it, on similar substrate"



Quote:

Good for you in actually doing an experiment.  5 shrooms for you.




Many thanks for your response - much appreciated!


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4099503 - 04/26/05 03:20 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

I have TMC but I have not found any reference to this. Is the discussion in GG&MM fairly involved, or just a vague passing mention?



It's not very involved. No discussion on the actual biological processes at play. Just a simple do this because of this, here's an example look at this liquid media recipe. That's about it.

Quote:

Wow that's cool - so he's actualy recommending that "roughage" (non-liquid) material be included in the culture? I figured I'd get laughed at for suggesting that, so I didn't mention it, even though I did purposely use un-strained/un-filtered compost tea.




Yeah he does. It's not that silly. Nearly everybody who uses nutritional yeast in their liquid media has solids in it, that stuff just doesn't dissolve very well. There are drawbacks to having solids in your media though, visibility of colonization or contamination being the main one for me. But still, having solids in your liquid media isn't something that would draw chuckles.
Quote:

My plan is to use compost (w/ the addition of some extra shredded straw ) - I figure that's pretty well nutritious; and appears to simply be the best substrate medium available.



Well, it is nutritious, plenty nutritious? I don't think so. As evidence I've seen (and many others have verified) that compost produces higher yields when supplemented with either Spawnmate or high spawn rates of whole grain spawn. This is due to the extra nutrition. If compost were plenty nutritious, then why does it yield more when supplemented? I know it's all relative to what is important (yield, biological efficiency, ease, cost etc), but just pointing out that compost is a great substrate, but not an absolutely perfect one on it's own.
Quote:

Replace WBS with compost in your above example, and you have exactly what I'm planning: "use a [measure] of [compost] in your liquid, then shoot up [compost], fruit it or [super spawn] it and fruit it, on similar substrate"



What are you going to compare the compost to? I would say that you would want to compare it to standard procedures for compost. As in traditional liquid to grain, grain to compost. Also, what exactly are you looking for? Faster growth, higher yield etc.?

Just curious, what kind of compost are you using?


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #4099974 - 04/26/05 05:49 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

warning... I wrote a long, rambling response here - may get boring.


Quote:

mycofile said:
It's not very involved. No discussion on the actual biological processes at play.




I'd really like to find some more information dealing with the biological process that goes on - still no luck though finding anything. I'm no chemist or biologist though, so I'm sure much of anything I may find would be over my head - however, I'm still interested in trying to glean whatever little I can.


Quote:

Well, it is nutritious, plenty nutritious? I don't think so. <snip>
I know it's all relative to what is important (yield, biological efficiency, ease, cost etc), but just pointing out that compost is a great substrate, but not an absolutely perfect one on it's own.




You definitely make a valid point there, but I'm not yet interested in experimenting with super potent/perfected nutrient substrate mix; I'm actualy trying to get to a sort of minimalist technique that works well in the small-scale. More about this down a bit, when you ask about what it is I'm hoping to accomplish.


Quote:

What are you going to compare the compost to? I would say that you would want to compare it to standard procedures for compost. As in traditional liquid to grain, grain to compost.




Originaly, I was only interested in doing everything possible to increase the chances for a successful liquid culture inoc. into a compost jar ( what I've been calling a "patty cake", mostly for search purposes ) - so I was going to simply test against another jar(s) which were inoc'd with pure karo LC, versus jar(s) inoc'd w/ the karo & compost LC.

But I like your suggestion to also test against a "traditional" bulk technique - that would definitely make for a more broad and inclusive experiment.


Quote:

Also, what exactly are you looking for? Faster growth, higher yield etc.?




Good question... sometimes I have to scratch my head and ask myself the same thing!

The catalyst to all this is that I've stubbornly, and somewhat arbitrarily, decided on two things: #1: I want to grow pan cyans, and #2: I want to do this entirely with compost. ( even if I decided to go w/ cubies, I probably would have ended up still deciding on #2 anyhow, knowing me )

What I was originally really shooting for here, was an easy, no-frills tek, for small-scale cultivations, that produced better results than grain: basically a pf tek, using poo instead of brf.

I'm just a sucker for "small-but-efficient"; or "quality vs. quantity" - and my whole approach to shrooms appears to be following that predeliction... wait till you see my grow chamber - small form factor ( approx. 6/7 gallon ), that also serves as incubator.

The thought process went something like this:

SO... I choose to cultivate pan cyans, that means I really need to use compost for best results.

HOWEVER, I want things to remains simple, so I don't want to deal with grain spawn - be simpler to just use poo/compost, one substrate only.

BUT, it's difficult to colonize directly off poo/compost, so I have to figure out ways to expedite the colonization process before contams set in.

THEREFORE, I go with liquid culture for obvious reasons - pre-germinated, increased amount of inoc. points.

HOWEVER, "everybody knows" you can't hope to reliably colonize compost w/ LC ...

... so on and so forth... which eventualy lead me to the idea of using compost in LC, after reading how mycelium actualy needs to "learn" how metabolize substrate.

It seemed to me that well-established myc grown off compost LC, injected into a half-pint jar of pastuerized compost ( w/ vermiculite for better consistency ) would be the best way of establishing reliable colonization from a pf style compost jar - which could then be fruited or spawned to a small casing tray.


I'm certain others have successfully colonized a poo jar - it's not a new idea, and it's not impossible - but any extra technique for better results and better reliability is a good thing.

Finally, after all this, I really started to wonder why it's not a much more prevalent and established practice to ensure that the target substrate medium always be present throughout the entire cultivation cycle - and going further, wouldn't it be "best" to just stick with a single substrate during a cultivation cycle - even if it meant figuring ways around certain pitfalls?

I can see why this might not be possible/feasible for large scale operations - but for small-scale, my (untested) feeling is that it would prove to be a good, simple method, once some kinks were creatively worked around.

Basically, I'm striving for a lowest-possible-effort to highest-possible-results ratio, tempered with a quality over quantity mentality.



Quote:

Just curious, what kind of compost are you using?




I went the easy route and ordered from Tennesse Stud. Seems like good stuff!


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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4100401 - 04/26/05 08:11 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Well, I see now. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

Pans do much better on liquid innoced horse manure than cubes do!

Most people can't get as many multiple flushes out of pans before contamination sets in, so the nutrients missing from not having a grain spawn probably don't matter.

So given your paradigm, I think you figured out a perfect way to grow pans! Way to go, you didn't even know that it was common to add fruiting substrate supplements to the liquid culture, but you figured it out yourself. I'm impressed. Way to go.

BTW, you may do better with spawn bags than jars. i know you're keeping it small, but still, bags are pretty easy to work with. You could even just get the pre-pasteurized bags from tennstud, shoot with a liquid innoc (that has a little tenn stud in it too), and be good to go.


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PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #4102949 - 04/27/05 02:05 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

You know in the archieves, theres a PF Tek that includes poo, for use of fruiting pan cyans off cakes that is said to work.

And I've found they like rye grass for spawn...pans are pretty easy as it is though in my so far limited experience. They like poo and rye and wbs mixed in the rye grass for spawn though :smile: Shoot that up and eats that shit up.


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Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #4107778 - 04/28/05 04:38 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

mycofile said:
Way to go, you didn't even know that it was common to add fruiting substrate supplements to the liquid culture, but you figured it out yourself.

BTW, you may do better with spawn bags than jars. i know you're keeping it small, but still, bags are pretty easy to work with.




Well I spent the last couple of days doing more searches on the shroomery and mycotopia, and yep - turns out this definitely isn't an earth shattering discovery on my part... (c8=

I especially realized this after seeing exactly how workman does his ( he uses bags, like you suggest, straight to compost, from a tea LC ):

"100% sterile horse stable manure in an injectable bag, injected with a liquid culture that was inoculated with a multispore agar wedge.
I used special presealable bags with injection port. They are more expensive but I get them free for my efforts. They have a special filter
that vents faster to prevent bursting.The bags were impulsed sealed and sterilized at 15psi for 2 hours.

I made a dilute malt water broth (1tsp:2cups) with a bit of the manure water from the squeezing. Sterilized this for 20 minutes at 15psi and inoculated with a pan cyan agar wedge when cool. This liquid inoculate was colonized in just a few days and was ready to draw into syringes
and inject into the bags. I injected a full 10cc into the manure bag and growth was noticable in 24 hours at 85F. 10 days later (with one shaking)
the bag was ready to be cased and 7 days later the first mushrooms were harvested.

Casing was peat/calcium carbonate 4:1 ratio by volume "sterilized" in the microwave, (with excess water to make up for steam loss, for 20 minutes).

Casing is applied very thinly, 1/4 inch or less."


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4107780 - 04/28/05 04:40 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)


I hope to see pics of those little mofo's scatmanarav!

Glad to hear they worked out for you so easily - much respect!


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