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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 22 days
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
#4097887 - 04/26/05 12:34 AM (19 years, 27 days ago) |
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mycofile said:The original tip (at least for most of us) came from paul stamets.
Well that's a positive sign!
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I know it's discussed in GG&MM, might be in TMC as well.
I have TMC but I have not found any reference to this. Is the discussion in GG&MM fairly involved, or just a vague passing mention?
I'd really love to read some material covering this topic - but I don't exactly feel that I know what the correct subject keywords would be... 
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1. His liquid media recipe therefore is not a simple sugar or karo media, but rather includes sawdust, powdered grain, bran, straw etc
Wow that's cool - so he's actualy recommending that "roughage" (non-liquid) material be included in the culture? I figured I'd get laughed at for suggesting that, so I didn't mention it, even though I did purposely use un-strained/un-filtered compost tea.
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2. I've found it to be almost unnoticable. It's just never been obvious to me without doing lots of replicates and doing inferential statistics.
Well I was definitely hoping for something obvious, or at least noticable... I'll still try anyhow though; I'll consider it a success just even if it works at all! (c8=
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3. The single substrate notion. Might be fine if you using a nutritious substrate like a whole grain for each step. Also, spore or liquid inoculation of bulk substrates has proven very difficult on large scales.
My plan is to use compost (w/ the addition of some extra shredded straw ) - I figure that's pretty well nutritious; and appears to simply be the best substrate medium available.
Regarding liquid innoc of bulk - I'll be using so-called "bulk substrate"... but I'll in no way be doing large-scale ( "bulk" ) cultivations.
So, I'll be using LC to inoculate jars of pasteurized compost, then I'll be growing some of those out as cakes ( for kicks ), and will also be using other similar jars as spawn to more compost - sort of a miniature/small-scale super spawn:
From TMC: "Super spawning is also called "active mycelium spawning" vis-a-vis the Hunke-Till process. Essentially, a set amount of substrate is inoculated and colonized in the normal manner. The fully run substrate is then used as inoculum to spawn increased amounts of a similar substrate. One could theoretically pyramid a small quantity of inoculum into a considerable amount of fully colonized substrate. This technique requires the primary substrate to be contaminant free; otherwise contamination, not mycelium, will be propagated."
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So, stick with B, ditch A (unless you want to say use a pinch of WBS in your liquid, then shoot up WBS, fruit it or G2G it and fruit it, or similar substrate).
The experiment is going to stick with A, as that is what I believe will prove most optimal. Replace WBS with compost in your above example, and you have exactly what I'm planning: "use a [measure] of [compost] in your liquid, then shoot up [compost], fruit it or [super spawn] it and fruit it, on similar substrate"
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Good for you in actually doing an experiment. 5 shrooms for you.
Many thanks for your response - much appreciated!
-------------------- Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
#4099503 - 04/26/05 03:20 PM (19 years, 27 days ago) |
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I have TMC but I have not found any reference to this. Is the discussion in GG&MM fairly involved, or just a vague passing mention?
It's not very involved. No discussion on the actual biological processes at play. Just a simple do this because of this, here's an example look at this liquid media recipe. That's about it.
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Wow that's cool - so he's actualy recommending that "roughage" (non-liquid) material be included in the culture? I figured I'd get laughed at for suggesting that, so I didn't mention it, even though I did purposely use un-strained/un-filtered compost tea.
Yeah he does. It's not that silly. Nearly everybody who uses nutritional yeast in their liquid media has solids in it, that stuff just doesn't dissolve very well. There are drawbacks to having solids in your media though, visibility of colonization or contamination being the main one for me. But still, having solids in your liquid media isn't something that would draw chuckles.
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My plan is to use compost (w/ the addition of some extra shredded straw ) - I figure that's pretty well nutritious; and appears to simply be the best substrate medium available.
Well, it is nutritious, plenty nutritious? I don't think so. As evidence I've seen (and many others have verified) that compost produces higher yields when supplemented with either Spawnmate or high spawn rates of whole grain spawn. This is due to the extra nutrition. If compost were plenty nutritious, then why does it yield more when supplemented? I know it's all relative to what is important (yield, biological efficiency, ease, cost etc), but just pointing out that compost is a great substrate, but not an absolutely perfect one on it's own.
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Replace WBS with compost in your above example, and you have exactly what I'm planning: "use a [measure] of [compost] in your liquid, then shoot up [compost], fruit it or [super spawn] it and fruit it, on similar substrate"
What are you going to compare the compost to? I would say that you would want to compare it to standard procedures for compost. As in traditional liquid to grain, grain to compost. Also, what exactly are you looking for? Faster growth, higher yield etc.?
Just curious, what kind of compost are you using?
-------------------- "From a certain point of view" -Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi PM me with any cultivation questions. I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 22 days
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
#4099974 - 04/26/05 05:49 PM (19 years, 27 days ago) |
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warning... I wrote a long, rambling response here - may get boring.
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mycofile said: It's not very involved. No discussion on the actual biological processes at play.
I'd really like to find some more information dealing with the biological process that goes on - still no luck though finding anything. I'm no chemist or biologist though, so I'm sure much of anything I may find would be over my head - however, I'm still interested in trying to glean whatever little I can.
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Well, it is nutritious, plenty nutritious? I don't think so. <snip> I know it's all relative to what is important (yield, biological efficiency, ease, cost etc), but just pointing out that compost is a great substrate, but not an absolutely perfect one on it's own.
You definitely make a valid point there, but I'm not yet interested in experimenting with super potent/perfected nutrient substrate mix; I'm actualy trying to get to a sort of minimalist technique that works well in the small-scale. More about this down a bit, when you ask about what it is I'm hoping to accomplish.
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What are you going to compare the compost to? I would say that you would want to compare it to standard procedures for compost. As in traditional liquid to grain, grain to compost.
Originaly, I was only interested in doing everything possible to increase the chances for a successful liquid culture inoc. into a compost jar ( what I've been calling a "patty cake", mostly for search purposes ) - so I was going to simply test against another jar(s) which were inoc'd with pure karo LC, versus jar(s) inoc'd w/ the karo & compost LC.
But I like your suggestion to also test against a "traditional" bulk technique - that would definitely make for a more broad and inclusive experiment.
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Also, what exactly are you looking for? Faster growth, higher yield etc.?
Good question... sometimes I have to scratch my head and ask myself the same thing!
The catalyst to all this is that I've stubbornly, and somewhat arbitrarily, decided on two things: #1: I want to grow pan cyans, and #2: I want to do this entirely with compost. ( even if I decided to go w/ cubies, I probably would have ended up still deciding on #2 anyhow, knowing me )
What I was originally really shooting for here, was an easy, no-frills tek, for small-scale cultivations, that produced better results than grain: basically a pf tek, using poo instead of brf.
I'm just a sucker for "small-but-efficient"; or "quality vs. quantity" - and my whole approach to shrooms appears to be following that predeliction... wait till you see my grow chamber - small form factor ( approx. 6/7 gallon ), that also serves as incubator.
The thought process went something like this:
SO... I choose to cultivate pan cyans, that means I really need to use compost for best results.
HOWEVER, I want things to remains simple, so I don't want to deal with grain spawn - be simpler to just use poo/compost, one substrate only. BUT, it's difficult to colonize directly off poo/compost, so I have to figure out ways to expedite the colonization process before contams set in.
THEREFORE, I go with liquid culture for obvious reasons - pre-germinated, increased amount of inoc. points.
HOWEVER, "everybody knows" you can't hope to reliably colonize compost w/ LC ...
... so on and so forth... which eventualy lead me to the idea of using compost in LC, after reading how mycelium actualy needs to "learn" how metabolize substrate.
It seemed to me that well-established myc grown off compost LC, injected into a half-pint jar of pastuerized compost ( w/ vermiculite for better consistency ) would be the best way of establishing reliable colonization from a pf style compost jar - which could then be fruited or spawned to a small casing tray.
I'm certain others have successfully colonized a poo jar - it's not a new idea, and it's not impossible - but any extra technique for better results and better reliability is a good thing.
Finally, after all this, I really started to wonder why it's not a much more prevalent and established practice to ensure that the target substrate medium always be present throughout the entire cultivation cycle - and going further, wouldn't it be "best" to just stick with a single substrate during a cultivation cycle - even if it meant figuring ways around certain pitfalls?
I can see why this might not be possible/feasible for large scale operations - but for small-scale, my (untested) feeling is that it would prove to be a good, simple method, once some kinks were creatively worked around.
Basically, I'm striving for a lowest-possible-effort to highest-possible-results ratio, tempered with a quality over quantity mentality.
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Just curious, what kind of compost are you using?
I went the easy route and ordered from Tennesse Stud. Seems like good stuff!
-------------------- Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
#4100401 - 04/26/05 08:11 PM (19 years, 27 days ago) |
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Well, I see now. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!
Pans do much better on liquid innoced horse manure than cubes do!
Most people can't get as many multiple flushes out of pans before contamination sets in, so the nutrients missing from not having a grain spawn probably don't matter.
So given your paradigm, I think you figured out a perfect way to grow pans! Way to go, you didn't even know that it was common to add fruiting substrate supplements to the liquid culture, but you figured it out yourself. I'm impressed. Way to go.
BTW, you may do better with spawn bags than jars. i know you're keeping it small, but still, bags are pretty easy to work with. You could even just get the pre-pasteurized bags from tennstud, shoot with a liquid innoc (that has a little tenn stud in it too), and be good to go.
-------------------- "From a certain point of view" -Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi PM me with any cultivation questions. I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
#4102949 - 04/27/05 02:05 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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You know in the archieves, theres a PF Tek that includes poo, for use of fruiting pan cyans off cakes that is said to work.
And I've found they like rye grass for spawn...pans are pretty easy as it is though in my so far limited experience. They like poo and rye and wbs mixed in the rye grass for spawn though Shoot that up and eats that shit up.
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 22 days
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: mycofile]
#4107778 - 04/28/05 04:38 PM (19 years, 25 days ago) |
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mycofile said: Way to go, you didn't even know that it was common to add fruiting substrate supplements to the liquid culture, but you figured it out yourself.
BTW, you may do better with spawn bags than jars. i know you're keeping it small, but still, bags are pretty easy to work with.
Well I spent the last couple of days doing more searches on the shroomery and mycotopia, and yep - turns out this definitely isn't an earth shattering discovery on my part... (c8=
I especially realized this after seeing exactly how workman does his ( he uses bags, like you suggest, straight to compost, from a tea LC ):
"100% sterile horse stable manure in an injectable bag, injected with a liquid culture that was inoculated with a multispore agar wedge. I used special presealable bags with injection port. They are more expensive but I get them free for my efforts. They have a special filter that vents faster to prevent bursting.The bags were impulsed sealed and sterilized at 15psi for 2 hours. I made a dilute malt water broth (1tsp:2cups) with a bit of the manure water from the squeezing. Sterilized this for 20 minutes at 15psi and inoculated with a pan cyan agar wedge when cool. This liquid inoculate was colonized in just a few days and was ready to draw into syringes and inject into the bags. I injected a full 10cc into the manure bag and growth was noticable in 24 hours at 85F. 10 days later (with one shaking) the bag was ready to be cased and 7 days later the first mushrooms were harvested. Casing was peat/calcium carbonate 4:1 ratio by volume "sterilized" in the microwave, (with excess water to make up for steam loss, for 20 minutes). Casing is applied very thinly, 1/4 inch or less."
-------------------- Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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VALIS
vast activelivingintelligencesystem


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 225
Loc: neverwhere, az
Last seen: 12 years, 22 days
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
#4107780 - 04/28/05 04:40 PM (19 years, 25 days ago) |
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I hope to see pics of those little mofo's scatmanarav!
Glad to hear they worked out for you so easily - much respect!
-------------------- Nature is the Technology of the Divine.
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