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OfflineVALIS
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question: mycelium & substrate
    #4078456 - 04/20/05 08:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm having difficulty figuring out how to word my question - so please bear with me here...

Specifically, I'm trying to get a better handle on the process that goes on in myc as it learns/adapts to breaking down and absorbing different forms of nutrients/substrate; and how this may be applied to a liquid culture technique that would decrease colonization time when inoculated directly into compost.

Of course this is a chemical process that goes on, and as I understand it, myc needs a sort of adaptation period to the substrate that it is subjected to - correct?

How does the myc "learn" to absorb the nutrients from a new substrate medium?

And isn't it actualy less efficient/desirable to force the myc from going from grain to, say, compost - but yet that is the standard procedure for bulk.

It seems to me that it would be most optimal to get your myc adapted/acclimated to the target substrate at the earliest time possible, and to stick w/ that same substrate throughout the full cultivation cycle - from cradle to grave.

If the above assertion is true, then wouldn't adding a small measured amount of the target substrate to your liquid culture medium result in mycelium that is pre-disposed to more effectively/quickly colonize the target substrate - whether that substrate be grain or straw, or compost or whatever?

I'm thinking why use honey or karo as the base nutrient for LC, when you could use tea created from the same substrate material that you plan on fruiting with?

I've already got an experiment going:

3 LC bottles:

#1 - karo
#2 - karo w/ poo tea
#3 - karo, then later ( after germination ), poo tea will be added

I inoculated those w/ multi-spore solution two days ago and am monitoring their progress.

I'm interested primarily in seeing whether the LC w/ tea colonizes straight to poo more quickly than the LC w/ only karo.

Secondarily, I'm interested in seeing how well LC thrives w/ poo tea: whether mycelium forms healthier or quicker, and whether after germination and myc is forming/clumping in the culture, that the #3 LC shows positive growth after the tea is injected.

Finally, I've also inoculated a half-pint jar of pasteurized (unsterilized) poo/compost ( the same from which I made the tea ) with 2cc's straight uncolonized multi-spore solution ( same used in the LC )- and will be monitoring the progress of that as well.


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Edited by VALIS (04/21/05 08:43 PM)


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InvisibleTHEDANGLER
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4078819 - 04/20/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i remember reading a while back to add a little birdseed to your agar to help out in the spawn run...i really want to here more about this to..


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: THEDANGLER]
    #4079243 - 04/21/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

THEDANGLER said: i remember reading a while back to add a little birdseed to your agar to help out in the spawn run...




Ok cool - that sounds like the same basic thing I'm talking about: introduce the target substrate medium to the young developing mycelium before colonization of said mycelium into said target substrate. So, the above tip to use some birdseed w/ your agar makes sense -- _if_ you plan on spawning to wbs using that agar ( it wouldn't make sense if you were going to spawn the agar to brf or popcorn, for instance ).

But I'm guessing whatever source provided that tip, planned on using the wbs as spawn to poo... which at that point would break the strategy...


The following may very well come across as ignorant to many facts, but I'm just speculating from honest curiosity.

In my mind, if the target _fruiting_ substrate is, say, compost - then compost and compost-product should be used throughout the _entire_ cultivation process... for instance from agar, then agar-to-LC, then from LC-to-spawn and finally from spawn-to-fruiting-substrate.

Why put the mycelium through that adhoc battery of nutrient/substrate curveballs? From sugar ( agar and/or LC ), to grain ( spawn ), to compost ( bulk )???

Consider this:

1 - You create an agar plate, using either PDA or MEA...
2 - You select the most aggressive/healthy myc from the plate for transfer.

Well... you've just selected myc that is aggressive/healthy -- on potatoe dextrose or malt extract... _not_ on your target substrate... what good is that?

Somewhat lame, and potentialy ignorant analogy: If you were interested in finding talented hockey players, you'd want to choose from a group of people playing hocky - not from a group of people playing... baseball or something. And you wouldn't want your up-and-coming hockey team practicing baseball... you'd want them practicing hockey.

If you modify the agar recipe, to include some measured amount of the target fruiting substrate into the agar, then wouldn't it follow that whatever sector you selected to transfer would with certainty be best suited for your cultivation?


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


Edited by VALIS (04/21/05 12:20 AM)


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4079343 - 04/21/05 12:39 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

poo tea. tell us what that tastes like.


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: Abermelin]
    #4079465 - 04/21/05 01:07 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Abermelin said:poo tea. tell us what that tastes like.




I dunno... prolly like ass.

But, uh - it's not for me... it's for the mycelium.



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Offlinethenewguy05
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4081113 - 04/21/05 02:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So let me see if i have this right. your talking (this is just an example)like takeing pf cakes and breaking them up to do a bulk grow and adding brown rice flour to the bulk substrate???


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: thenewguy05]
    #4081195 - 04/21/05 02:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i think he is more interested in "trainer supplements" in the culture phase. either agar or liquid.

your example, using pf cakes, has the flaw that uncolonised rice flour will quickly contaminate. a better idea is to include a small amount of the target substrtae in the pf cake.

Another idea might be to supplement millet jars, pre-inoculation, with straw powder. One might expect the straw-supplemented spawn to take to a straw bed more quickly than non-supplemented grain spawn.


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: thenewguy05]
    #4081302 - 04/21/05 03:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

thenewguy05 said:
So let me see if i have this right. your talking (this is just an example)like takeing pf cakes and breaking them up to do a bulk grow and adding brown rice flour to the bulk substrate???




Actually I'm talking the opposite... it appears in your example that your target fruiting substrate is bulk ( probably poo/compost/straw ). So if that's the case, then you would either:

A - ditch brf _altogether_ and go strictly w/ your target substrate throughout the whole cultivation ( i.e., say ( if compost was your target fruiting substrate ) - inject compost tea into your liquid culture, then use _compost_ as your cake or spawn ( _not_ brf ), then finally spawn/crumble your cake into the final bulk substrate.

B - an alternative would be to at least use some amount of the target substrate material as an additive in all stages... so, going with the same example above - you would add some compost tea to your karo LC bottle, and you would inject some amount of compost tea into your brf pf cakes and/or mix in an amount of compost into the brf, then finally you would break your cake into the final bulk compost -- at which point you would be confident knowing your myc has been pre-exposed to your bulk substrate medium. Kinda like sending your kid to pre-school, and then keeping them tutored as they progress.

I list B as an option because it may not always be possible to use the exact same substrate ( in some form or another ) from cradle to grave - but even a little bit of exposure would be beneficial, I think.

What I'm experimenting with right now, is specifically using compost through the entire process of a cultivation:


#1 - multi-spore solution injected into LC bottle, w/ compost tea as the primary nutritious medium ( karo was also added ).

#2 - the LC will be injected into a pf style half-pint jar not w/ brf, but with compost ( a "patty cake" ). [ it's my theory that the myc will tear through it much faster because it already knows how to break it down and absorb it effectively due to the "leg-up" so to speak it got while growing in the LC ]

#3 - the patty cake will be used as spawn into a larger tray of compost w/ a casing - kindofa small-scale super spawn. ( it's my theory again, that this final bulk substrate will be colonized extremely quickly and the fruits will be particularly healthy/potent due to the myc's total experience w/ that substrate material throughout it's entire life cycle )

( note that if I were beginning the process w/ an agar plate, then I would add some small measured amount of compost/compost-tea into the agar mix/recipe; then I'd place a wedge of this into the LC, rather than begin w/ multi-spore solution via syringe. )


Now, if your "target fruiting substrate" was straw... then you'd do the same basic process but with straw. If it was popcorn or wbs... then use popcorn or wbs the entire time. etc, etc. If you were merely doing pf style cakes w/ say, brf - then use "brf tea" in your LC...


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


Edited by VALIS (04/21/05 03:18 PM)


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: debianlinux]
    #4081396 - 04/21/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:i think he is more interested in "trainer supplements" in the culture phase.




Yep - but not just the culture phase; but also the spawn.

The idea is that a generation of mushrooms in the wild don't change their diet... they stick with the same thing the whole time. It takes effort and time for myc to adapt to new medium or mediums during it's life-cycle - it is not efficient or natural.


Quote:

either agar or liquid.




Or both... i.e., wedge-into-LC .


Quote:

Another idea might be to supplement millet jars, pre-inoculation, with straw powder. One might expect the straw-supplemented spawn to take to a straw bed more quickly than non-supplemented grain spawn.




Exactly what I'm thinking. That's essentially the "B" option in my above post. However, why use millet jars if you're planning on fruiting w/ straw? ( there's obvious reasons why this is done, and obviously it works - but I think it would be most optimal to use entirely one substrate only. "well you can't use straw jars, becuase it's likely to contam"... my answer to that is a straw jar would be much less likely to contam if you inoculated that straw jar with mycelium which was already trained and predisposed toward a straw medium via previous exposure in LC and/or agar. And then when you spawned that straw jar to straw bulk - the same logic applies: the myc would likely tear through it in my theory )


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: VALIS]
    #4081611 - 04/21/05 04:41 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

VALIS said:
However, why use millet jars if you're planning on fruiting w/ straw?



more inoculation points = faster overall colonisation. supplementing the millet with straw would still "train" the mycelium to be more ready for the coming straw.

Also, bear in mind that one of the biggest reasons for varying substrates is to maintain strain integrity. Not a big deal for a one-time run but it becomes increasingly more important the longer you try to specialise a strain.


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium digestive enzymes [Re: debianlinux]
    #4081701 - 04/21/05 05:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:supplementing the millet with straw would still "train" the mycelium to be more ready for the coming straw.




Yes - that may be better than not supplementing ( again, "option B" ), but the theory is that going straight with a single substrate is most optimal and natural.


Quote:

Also, bear in mind that one of the biggest reasons for varying substrates is to maintain strain integrity. Not a big deal for a one-time run but it becomes increasingly more important the longer you try to specialise a strain.




You could still switch substrates for a single cultivation run every so often when developing/maintaining a strain.


--------------------
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OfflineAeolus1369
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4094823 - 04/25/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

In bacteria at least, the presence of useful nutrients is quickly detected and can either directly affect transcription/translation of necessary metabolic enzymes or kicks off a signaling-cascade which eventually does the same.  The general process (which is quite quick) is probably the same in fungus and that would be how they "learn" to absorb nutrients from different substrates.


Quote:

I'm interested primarily in seeing whether the LC w/ tea colonizes straight to poo more quickly than the LC w/ only karo.




Just a thought: If the LC w/ tea does colonize faster, it may not necessarily be because you 'primed' the mycelia with a future substrate.  Perhaps the tea just makes for a more robust liquid culture that would colonize faster in general.  As a sub-experiment you could use two liquid cultures--one with tea, one without--to inoculate a non-poo substrate and compare colonization to rule out that possibility.

I'm eager to see your results...happy experimenting  :laugh:


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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #4095065 - 04/25/05 02:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I got not much to add with this, just found it interesting. I've recently been adding a scoop of worm castings and maybe a scoop of horse poo too, to about 20 scoops of grain during the soak..then simmered in the same water. Little verm is added to soak up some of the poo/grain water too...I havnt really noticed a huge difference in spawn time but I have done any comparisons with it. Colonization is incredibly quick in quarts with the poo added to the grain, even the small amount. Spawn runs are also increibly quick. 20% spawn colonizes the poo in 4-7 days easy.. My bulk substrate contains hpoo and worm castings mostly...everything works out great so I plan on continuing. Now I'm thinking of adding poo to the liquid culture water though..

But then I look at incredibly great flushes that couldnt be better, comming from nothing so complicated..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #4095322 - 04/25/05 03:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Aeolus1369 said:
In bacteria at least, the presence of useful nutrients is quickly detected and can either directly affect transcription/translation of necessary metabolic enzymes or kicks off a signaling-cascade which eventually does the same. The general process (which is quite quick) is probably the same in fungus and that would be how they "learn" to absorb nutrients from different substrates.




Thanks - that was the sort of info I was looking for.

I went searching around but wasn't able to fine anything; probably due to the fact that I know so little about it, I'm having difficulty finding proper search keywords.

Anyone know of threads on the shroomery covering similar subject matter, or any papers/articles online?


Quote:

As a sub-experiment you could use two liquid cultures--one with tea, one without--to inoculate a non-poo substrate and compare colonization to rule out that possibility.




Yes - this is what I'm doing: I have three cultures:

#1 - karo
#2 - karo w/ poo tea
#3 - karo, then later ( after germination ), poo tea will be added

Oh - wait, you're saying to also try with a _non_ poo substrate.

That's a good idea, I'll go ahead and include that to make the experiment more complete.


Quote:

I'm eager to see your results...happy experimenting




Thanks, problem though I'm a bit worried about is that it's been a week now, and I see no signs of mycelium growth in any of my LC jars. Could be that I'm just being impatient, or maybe pan cyans are slow germinators or something. I'm certain I didn't biff the LC.
Hopefully I didn't get a bum syringe...


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4095360 - 04/25/05 04:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:But then I look at incredibly great flushes that couldnt be better, comming from nothing so complicated..




I've seen pics of some of those flushes of yours that you speak of, and I admit I have trouble thinking of how they could possibly get better!

I've been over analyzing things since I first started, though I have little to show for any of it! (c8=

Anyhow I'm mainly interested in this particular experiment because if it adds any extra boost whatsoever, then I think it's worth while - seeing as the extra effort involved is quite minimal, and may actualy make things more similar: one substrate, rather than two.


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Offlinexburn
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4095548 - 04/25/05 04:53 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

dont worry about it taking a bit to colonize your lc. Sometimes they take upwards of 2 weeks to show growth. Other times less than a week


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: xburn]
    #4095606 - 04/25/05 05:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xburn said:dont worry about it taking a bit to colonize your lc.




Thanks for that - makes feel more at ease.

I did already post the question to mush. cult. though; wondering whether I should stop shaking and exposing to light as I monitor progress.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4095993 - 04/25/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

>I've seen pics of some of those flushes of yours that you speak of, and I admit I have trouble thinking of how they could possibly get better!

Mine actually could get a little better :smile: Agar's flushes are more the flushes I'm talking about :smile:

You know though, it could also weaken it. Kind of like how when you do agar plates, over multiple transfers to get an isolate, you dont want to stick with MEA the whole time or PDA, or whatever recipe...its better to switch to a different nutrient every few plates to keep the myceliums vigor. This makes me think that this might not even be a great thing if itdoes affect it all that much. I dont really think it does other then the added poo to the specific stage myself...thats why I do it, faster grain colonization...but I'll still be keeping an eye on this. At least your constantly thinking about new and different things :smile:


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4096302 - 04/25/05 07:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:Mine actually could get a little better :smile: Agar's flushes are more the flushes I'm talking about :smile:




Heheh!  (c8=


Quote:

You know though, it could also weaken it. Kind of like how when you do agar plates, over multiple transfers to get an isolate, you dont want to stick with MEA the whole time or PDA, or whatever recipe...its better to switch to a different nutrient every few plates to keep the myceliums vigor.




This is what debianlinux was warning me of.

But I'm not saying that you'd always use the same substrate in this "cradle-to-grave" (or whatever) technique for the whole life of a _strain_ - you'd still want to change up every so often as usual - this is for the whole life of a _cultivation_.

The main things I'm going on is that:

#1 shrooms don't switch their substrates mid-cycle in nature

#2 switching substrates does cause some amount of effort and energy for the myc

With that, I'm theorizing that having at least some degree of exposure to the fruiting substrate before being subjected to it would be beneficial - but more importantly, that sticking with the same substrate for the entire life cycle would be most optimal due to the 2 assertions above: it's more closer to what happens in the wild, and it avoids the extra energy/time/baggage of the myc having its substrate switched out from under it and needing to learn how to metabolize the new substrate - better effinciency.


Quote:

but I'll still be keeping an eye on this. At least your constantly thinking about new and different things :smile:




Thanks - let's hope my cultures aren't barren!

I'm guessing others could do my experiment for me before I've even gotten started!  <grinz>

Assuming my LC jars ever develop successfully, I'll put this experiment in a new thread as a grow log.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: question: mycelium & substrate [Re: VALIS]
    #4096935 - 04/25/05 10:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The original tip (at least for most of us) came from paul stamets. I know it's discussed in GG&MM, might be in TMC as well. A couple of points.

1. He does recomend including supplements of all the planned media from the beginning. His liquid media recipe therefore is not a simple sugar or karo media, but rather includes sawdust, powdered grain, bran, straw etc depending on the species and the planned mycelial expansion.

2. I've found it to be almost unnoticable. I guess maybe if you did a lot of repititions you might be able to see it statistically, but I don't think it will be obvious and I don't think you are doing enough replicates to verify the technique, just give it a little credit if it works and repeat it if it doesn't. It must work, stamets is world class, I have the utmost faith in him. It's just never been obvious to me without doing lots of replicates and doing inferential statistics.

3. The single substrate notion. Might be fine if you using a nutritious substrate like a whole grain for each step. But you can't use only, say straw. Well you could, but you certainly don't want to. Whatever benefit you may see from not forcing the mycelia to make the transition between food sources, you would loose due to the much lower nutrition. Also, spore or liquid inoculation of bulk substrates has proven very difficult on large scales.

So, stick with B, ditch A (unless you want to say use a pinch of WBS in your liquid, then shoot up WBS, fruit it or G2G it and fruit it, or similar substrate).
Good for you in actually doing an experiment. 5 shrooms for you.


--------------------
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PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


Edited by mycofile (04/25/05 10:08 PM)


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