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OnlineLearyfan
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Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost
    #4072670 - 04/19/05 02:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I remember feeling as though all mankind was one when I was a kid. But since I could never articulate what I felt, I lost my way for a long time. Now, I'm in the long process of re-learning what I un-learned.

Anyone else stop thinking a certain way because they couldn't articulate their feelings at the time?





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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Learyfan]
    #4072868 - 04/19/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Thats why it pays to read. It's a great feeling when you see someone else articulate them for you. It revives and refreshes the subject for you as you can get a handle on it through the articulation.

It happened to me today. I did some rambling on circles and spheres in two different posts yesterday and scraped them before posting because I felt like I wasn't getting the words out right and was maybe talking jibberish. Then earlier today, I picked up a new book I have and randomly openned to a page and started reading and THERE it was beautifully articulated by a great author. I like that feeling.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/19/05 03:48 PM)


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Learyfan]
    #4072887 - 04/19/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Now, I'm in the long process of re-learning what I un-learned.




read zen mind, beginners mind

if you're on that trip now,
you'll dig it :thumbup:

Quote:

A respected Zen master in Japan and founder of the San Francisco Zen Center, Shunryu Suzuki has blazed a path in American Buddhism like few others. He is the master who climbs down from the pages of the koan books and answers your questions face to face. If not face to face, you can at least find the answers as recorded in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, a transcription of juicy excerpts from his lectures. From diverse topics such as transience of the world, sudden enlightenment, and the nuts and bolts of meditation, Suzuki always returns to the idea of beginner's mind, a recognition that our original nature is our true nature. With beginner's mind, we dedicate ourselves to sincere practice, without the thought of gaining anything special. Day to day life becomes our Zen training, and we discover that "to study Buddhism is to study ourselves." And to know our true selves is to be enlightened.




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OnlineLearyfan
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4072952 - 04/19/05 03:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:


biO: Thanks.  I've already read a lot of Buddhism, though.  I know what it's all about.  I'm not a part of any religion, but I respect Buddhism more than any others.





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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Vvellum]
    #4073252 - 04/19/05 05:15 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
Quote:

Now, I'm in the long process of re-learning what I un-learned.




read zen mind, beginners mind

if you're on that trip now,
you'll dig it :thumbup:

Quote:

A respected Zen master in Japan and founder of the San Francisco Zen Center, Shunryu Suzuki has blazed a path in American Buddhism like few others. He is the master who climbs down from the pages of the koan books and answers your questions face to face. If not face to face, you can at least find the answers as recorded in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, a transcription of juicy excerpts from his lectures. From diverse topics such as transience of the world, sudden enlightenment, and the nuts and bolts of meditation, Suzuki always returns to the idea of beginner's mind, a recognition that our original nature is our true nature. With beginner's mind, we dedicate ourselves to sincere practice, without the thought of gaining anything special. Day to day life becomes our Zen training, and we discover that "to study Buddhism is to study ourselves." And to know our true selves is to be enlightened.







Yes! i loved this book. It really captures the essence poeticly without going into the realms of the intellect. It seemed to me like such a pure experession of what Buddhism means and how to practice sincerly without running into the obstacles of knowlege. It was a real eye opener for me, as i have a tendency to intellectualize my experience even directly after meditation sessions  :shocked: . Excellent book, much respect!  :thumbup: :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: egghead1]
    #4078421 - 04/20/05 08:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

exactly. I couldnt have said it better myself. cheers man :heart:

learyfan: do you think language is what led you astray?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: egghead1]
    #4078610 - 04/20/05 09:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:

learyfan: do you think language is what led you astray?




Egghead,

You wondered where I got the idea from that at S&P people present Buddhism as "THE WAY".

That's one example.

I questioned it's teachings through you in another thread and you said that Buddhism acknowledges all ways. :thumbup: :heart:

So why does someone who studies/practices it act as if someone who doesn't practice it, was lead astray if all ways are the way? There would be nothing to be lead astray from if Buddhism WAS actually all encompassing in Bios understanding of it.

It would be all-ways and straying would be impossible (as it actually is) That's one reason why I hinted at the limitations it is presented here with.

Lead astray from what and into what else? hats 2 separate things. That's also why I said it's "presented" as a dualistic teaching.

It's been reading Jehovah's Witness type comments like the one Bio just made for almost a year here that lead to my questioning it's teachings through you in the bliss/suffering post.

It can get almost creepy from some like they have been brainwashed by a religious cult.

Ultimately, Buddhism is a religion so I guess it's not unrealistic to hear stuff like that from its devotees.

This is also a religious forum so............I just wanted to point out this example so you would understand the perspective I was coming from better. It's sort of funny really.

No offense Bio, I know you were just wondering what made Leary get turned off by it if he ever even was turned on by it as he said, he doesn't do religions.

Some people just explore freely without disciplines and guidelines and simply live life without needing labels, definitions, a right and wrong rule book or directions for everything. Some let their hearts be the guide. Some follow the beat of a more cosmic drummer within. That may seem scary for some but its not for everyone. It's actually very liberating from the traditional confines for the ones who do because the mitations of the labels, definitions guidelines yada yada have been removed.

ALL ways will get you there because there is no where else to go.  You can go into a delusive lack of the all but you are still there, just in limited perception of it. That's not a bad things as you can see what its made of better. As long as you realize you are just in limited focus of the big picture and not separate from it, there is no fear or suffering even in lack perception and experience then.  Always :peace:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4078708 - 04/20/05 09:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I questioned it's teachings through you in another thread and you said that Buddhism acknowledges all ways.




I did? when and where and to whom?

Quote:

So why does someone who studies/practices it act as if someone who doesn't practice it, was lead astray if all ways are the way? There would be nothing to be lead astray from if Buddhism WAS actually all encompassing in Bios understanding of it.





huh? when did I ever say anything to effect of "if you dont practice buddhism, you'll be led astray" or when did ever say anything remotely like "all ways are the way"?? all I did was recommend a book and ask learyfan if language led him astray...it was a general inquiry - perhaps a simple invitation to discuss language.

what are you going on about?

Quote:


Lead astray from what and into what else? hats 2 separate things. That's also why I said it's "presented" as a dualistic teaching.




please re-read learyfan's original post. he clearly said that he once understood the world in a different way as a child and now that is gone - perhaps because (as he hinted at) he could not articulate himself.

I suppose my question has already been answered. I just wanted to hear what learyfan had to say...relax

Quote:

It's been reading Jehovah's Witness type comments like the one Bio just made for almost a year here that lead to my questioning it's teachings through you in the bliss/suffering post.




...and what "jehovah's witness type" statements might these be? examples and links please. what have I said that can be construed that way?

Quote:


It can get almost creepy from some like they have been brainwashed by a religious cult.




are you insinuating that I am brainwashed by a religious cult? do you know me? answer: no.

Quote:

No offense Bio, I know you were just wondering what made Leary get turned off by it if he ever even was turned on by it as he said, he doesn't do religions.




I am not offended - I am confused by why you think I am some dogmatic religious person. I am confused as to why you think you know everything about me when clearly you do not.

Quote:

Some people just explore freely without disciplines and guidelines and simply live life without needing labels, definitions, a right and wrong rule book or directions for everything. Some let their hearts be the guide. Some follow the beat of a more cosmic drummer within. That may seem scary for some but its not for everyone. It's actually very liberating from the traditional confines for the ones who do because the mitations of the labels, definitions guidelines yada yada have been removed.

ALL ways will get you there because there is no where else to go. You can go into a delusive lack of the all but you are still there, just in limited perception of it. That's not a bad things as you can see what its made of better. As long as you realize you are just in limited focus of the big picture and not separate from it, there is no fear or suffering even in lack perception and experience then.




so you can express your beliefs freely, but if I do it (and rarely do - go back and search - see for yourself), I am likened to a "jehovah's witness type"? whats up with that?

check yourself man


Edited by bi0 (04/20/05 10:10 PM)


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OnlineLearyfan
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Vvellum]
    #4078769 - 04/20/05 10:15 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

My lack of language in response to someone else's language is what led me astray when I was very young.

Kid: "Why would you care if he gets hurt? It doesn't have anything to do with you.

Me: "Umm.......well.........I don't know. Maybe you're right."






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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Vvellum]
    #4078920 - 04/20/05 10:53 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I said that is how it can come across when things like "what lead you astray" are said.

It doesn't mean it's a refection of Buddhism. It doesn't mean that's how you meant to even imply in your question.

It's just semantics and misunderstandings that can come from them that can turn people off to something if it sounds limiting or separating yourself from others in a self righteous way.

I talk all sorts of this and that and only reflect on myself. When you speak in representation of something how you do casts a reflection on to it as well. 

For anyone pro Buddha, I am giving you all stuff to watch for so as not to isolate people from Buddhism or turn people off from it and to keep it more relatable to the masses.

That's all! No need for breathing exercises. :wink: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4079294 - 04/21/05 12:24 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I see you completely skirted around my questions and response to you. If you want me to take you seriously, please go back to my previous post and actually answer my questions.

Quote:

I said that is how it can come across when things like "what lead you astray" are said.




Learyfan said he once had a particular understanding of the world as a child, but as since lost his bearings on this understanding because of linguistic limitations. Why cant I ask normal questions like "do you think language is what led you astray" without you spliting hairs and being critical of me? Why do you even consider this simple, simple question a reflection of my beliefs? What do my beliefs have to do with anything?

Quote:

It's just semantics and misunderstandings that can come from them that can turn people off to something if it sounds limiting or separating yourself from others in a self righteous way.




Well, considering that Learyfan seems to believe that his early perceptions of the world (as a child) were the ideal and due to the failings of language he has lost this ideal, take it up with him if you think such speech is "self-righteous." (...and what is so self-righteous about acknowledging his previous perceptions/understanding?)

Quote:

I talk all sorts of this and that and only reflect on myself. When you speak in representation of something how you do casts a reflection on to it as well.




...well your "reflection" seems to be one of having a bone to pick with me for some odd reason. you likened me to a "jehovah's witness type" for no justifable reason. you should "reflect" less on strangers on the internet and more on your quick-to-judge, arrogant mind.

Quote:

For anyone pro Buddha, I am giving you all stuff to watch for so as not to isolate people from Buddhism or turn people off from it and to keep it more relatable to the masses.




Thank you for your teachings Oh Wise One  :rolleyes:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Vvellum]
    #4079387 - 04/21/05 12:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You can answer all of your questions to me for yourself. Whatever you decide my answers are is fine with me. You can put the words "I dunno" or "I was wrong and you are right in my mouth". I can tell from what you wrote, you already did that anyway. Quit giving your power away to me because, I really don't want it. It's easy to do. Just quit giving anything I said the value of meaning to you.

I have no concern to be taken seriously by you only because I was writing to egghead. Look at who my reply was to and who I addressed it to. I only used something you said as an example of something he and I were discussing in another thread. It really doesn't matter to me if anyone takes me seriously here. Note the location under my avatar that I write from. It's there for a reason to remind myself and others not to do that.

If you are okay with using the phrase , "what lead you astray from the religion" then whats the problem? If you are concerned about your reputation here, or if this is an ego thing try using the detachment teachings on this. They are some of the really good ones.  :wink:

edit typo


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/21/05 12:56 AM)


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4079567 - 04/21/05 01:25 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You can answer all of your questions to me for yourself. Whatever you decide my answers are is fine with me. You can put the words "I dunno" or "I was wrong and you are right in my mouth". I can tell from what you wrote, you already did that anyway. Quit giving your power away to me because, I really don't want it. It's easy to do. Just quit giving anything I said the value of meaning to you.





I do not ascribe meaning to your words because there is none - you make little sense, dodge questions, and have a bone to pick with me. I am merely pointing this out.

Quote:

I have no concern to be taken seriously by you only because I was writing to egghead. Look at who my reply was to and who I addressed it to. I only used something you said as an example of something he and I were discussing in another thread.




...therefore you completely took my words out of context and twisted them to serve your desire to attack. Did you not say my postings were a "Jehovah's Witness type"? So what postings are you talking about? At least back your words up.

Quote:


If you are okay with using the phrase , "what lead you astray from the religion" then whats the problem?




did I ever ask that question? No. Read again - this time without an agenda.

Quote:

If you are concerned about your reputation here, or if this is an ego thing try using the detachment teachings on this. They are some of the really good ones.




You insulted me and twisted my words - of course I am going to respond to your nonsense. Oh, and your post was directed at both egghead and myself.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Vvellum]
    #4079639 - 04/21/05 01:39 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So it looks like you read a lot on Zen and Buddhism. When are you going to start practicing it?

I can just so not picture Buddha throwing the hissy fit you are now.

Remember your bliss, the rest is just an illusion. Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinewjames
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4079948 - 04/21/05 04:11 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Thats why it pays to read. It's a great feeling when you see someone else articulate them for you. It revives and refreshes the subject for you as you can get a handle on it through the articulation.




A really excellent point.

Since several posts mention Buddhism, may I suggest the works of the Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hahn?


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4080080 - 04/21/05 06:08 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

bi0 said:

learyfan: do you think language is what led you astray?




Egghead,

You wondered where I got the idea from that at S&P people present Buddhism as "THE WAY".

Yes i do wonder where you got this idea, please tell me. Just because i follow the Buddhist "WAY" doesn't mean that i think it is the only "WAY". Why are you being so antagonistic?

That's one example.

What is?

I questioned it's teachings through you in another thread and you said that Buddhism acknowledges all ways. :thumbup: :heart:

You cant question what you know nothing about. In the other post you demonstrated your total lack of understanding about Buddhism and i corrected you, you didn't ask many questions really, all you did was make untrue remarks and comments based upon misinformation. Yes Buddhism does acknowledge all ways, in fact Shunru Suzuki wrote another book which crosses the divide between Buddhism and Christianity.

So why does someone who studies/practices it act as if someone who doesn't practice it, was lead astray if all ways are the way? There would be nothing to be lead astray from if Buddhism WAS actually all encompassing in Bios understanding of it.

What? Please make some sense!

It would be all-ways and straying would be impossible (as it actually is) That's one reason why I hinted at the limitations it is presented here with.

Um no, would you consider the way of a murdering, rapist and child molester to be a valid way to enlightenment? I would have to say that such a person had strayed from his way :lol: But seriously you can fall into Nihilistic or Eternalistic views which are extremes, not falling into extremes is essential for realization 

Lead astray from what and into what else? hats 2 separate things. That's also why I said it's "presented" as a dualistic teaching.

The mind has the tendency through distraction to lead one on many philosophical and intellectual ramblings, your nature never strays but distraction makes you forget it. From the highest point of view, its not at all dualistic, from the lowest vehicles it can be at first, but that's only because its where we are now, living a a dualistic condition, so the lower vehicles start from their. But at the end of the day, ones awareness is needed whatever practice is applied and the result all depends on the individuals capacity to learn and apply the teaching.

It's been reading Jehovah's Witness type comments like the one Bio just made for almost a year here that lead to my questioning it's teachings through you in the bliss/suffering post.

Umm well your questioning on the Bliss/suffering post was based on a total perversion and misunderstanding of Buddhism. So i suggest you do some reading

It can get almost creepy from some like they have been brainwashed by a religious cult.

Ultimately, Buddhism is a religion so I guess it's not unrealistic to hear stuff like that from its devotees.

Some people can go to extremes with Buddhism, but that is a human error and not an error of the teachings themselves. Also some people consider Buddhism a religion, others a philosophy, others a psychology of mind, others purely a spiritual path, again this depends very much on the individual, the great thing about Buddhism is that it accounts for all people of all capacities.

This is also a religious forum so............I just wanted to point out this example so you would understand the perspective I was coming from better. It's sort of funny really.

I find it sad more than anything that your perspective is so uneducated and baseless

No offense Bio, I know you were just wondering what made Leary get turned off by it if he ever even was turned on by it as he said, he doesn't do religions.

Some people just explore freely without disciplines and guidelines and simply live life without needing labels, definitions, a right and wrong rule book or directions for everything. Some let their hearts be the guide. Some follow the beat of a more cosmic drummer within. That may seem scary for some but its not for everyone. It's actually very liberating from the traditional confines for the ones who do because the limitations of the labels, definitions guidelines yada yada have been removed.

Good, that's great if someone can do that, and i have much respect for people who do it and actually have some realizations. But its difficult not to fall into extremes of eternal-ism and nihilism without proper guidance.

ALL ways will get you there because there is no where else to go.  You can go into a delusive lack of the all but you are still there, just in limited perception of it. That's not a bad things as you can see what its made of better. As long as you realize you are just in limited focus of the big picture and not separate from it, there is no fear or suffering even in lack perception and experience then.  Always :peace:

Whatever you like to think jiggy. Peace






--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (04/21/05 10:33 AM)


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4080292 - 04/21/05 10:07 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
So it looks like you read a lot on Zen and Buddhism. When are you going to start practicing it?

I can just so not picture Buddha throwing the hissy fit you are now.

Remember your bliss, the rest is just an illusion. Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm




eheh, thats what i was thinkin  :wink:

edit ; thx for the link to the zen book bi0


Edited by fresh313 (04/21/05 10:22 AM)


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4080330 - 04/21/05 10:19 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I am not perfect - never said I was. I have been avoiding these types of arguments, but your comments were too unfounded.

All I am doing is asking you to back up your ridiculous statements (which you seem completely unable to). Once again: what comments of mine in my entire S&P history do you consider "Jehovah's Witness type"? Where on Earth did you come up with this idea? Please provide links.

If you continue to dodge this question and point fingers elsewhere, I think it is fair to believe that you were wrong but lack the integrity and humility to simply say so.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: egghead1]
    #4080332 - 04/21/05 10:21 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

good responses :thumbup:


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Unarticulated thoughts sometimes get lost [Re: Vvellum]
    #4080442 - 04/21/05 11:05 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I am not perfect - never said I was. I have been avoiding these types of arguments, but your comments were too unfounded.

Yes its difficult not to reply when someone is so flagrantly ignorant of the facts.

All I am doing is asking you to back up your ridiculous statements (which you seem completely unable to). Once again: what comments of mine in my entire S&P history do you consider "Jehovah's Witness type"? Where on Earth did you come up with this idea? Please provide links.

No she can't back up anything, she may be making all of it up off the top of her head, like some false ego manifestation. But hell, what do i know, maybe she's just beyond us all? :lol:

If you continue to dodge this question and point fingers elsewhere, I think it is fair to believe that you were wrong but lack the integrity and humility to simply say so. #

Yes she could'nt admit that she was mistaken on the bliss/suffering thread either, instead she made up some excuse or rationalization to save face by implying that she conciously created a false ego persona, or something silly to that affect :lol:

All of which is very amusing indeed. I am now laughing jiggy, so you can't say "Why arent you laughing" :lol:  :heart:








Edited by egghead1 (04/21/05 11:43 AM)


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