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 Turd
Dr. Rock
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1,909
Loc: Vulva, WA
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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 Live life, or make a difference? 
#4068784 - 04/18/05 01:36 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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I've recently reached a personal conflict in philosophy. My "motto" for my life is to enjoy and explore my life as fully as possible without impeding anyone else's ability to do so. Basically do whatever I want as long as it doesnt hurt or negatively affect anyone else.
I've also become more and more aware lately of the things that are wrong with our country/world, and I know that if I apply myself I CAN make a difference. I would love to make this country/world a better place.
Here is my dilema. In order for me to make a difference, I'm probably going to have to work (at some point, with some people) at shutting down some corporation or government's plan/project/operation. If I do that, I will certainly be putting someone out of work, and there's a very good chance I'll be causing some perfectly innocent people (janitors, electricians, etc) to lose their jobs. While they didn't play an active role in whatever "evil" scheme they were helping, they were a part of it and would lose their job if I did help to shut down whatever it is. So I could easily put Billy Bob out of work and send his whole family into bankruptcy.
I realize in order to make an omlette you have to break some eggs, but I'm not willing to play that game with other peoples' lives. I could very easily go on living as a "good person" as best I can and not affect anyone negatively, but at the same time not make nearly as big of a positive difference as I could.
Does anyone understand my problem here? Is there a way for me to make a real positive difference without hurting anyone??
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 Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: Turd]
#4068790 - 04/18/05 01:39 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Is it not possible to do both? You obviously wish to do both, so perhaps you just need to balance both your desires.
People always get hurt in way of change, irregardless of it's intended nature... whatever you do in regards to your situation make the effort to be intuitive and plan ahead (project possible outcomes) and simply take the most logical course of action.
Can you justify this action (whatever it is) to yourself? More so is their a possibility to not implicate those that had little to do with said scenario? If they were knowingly perpetuating said scheme (depends on your definition of evil/bad) then by all means, they should suffer the consequences of their actions. You're going to have to be a bit more specific, if you want a more specific answer.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: Turd]
#4068804 - 04/18/05 01:45 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
in order to make an omlette you have to break some eggs
do not try to justify your actions this way.
the ends don't justify the means.
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the_phoenix
Stranger
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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The most powerful way to make a difference is to lead by example. There are many proper ways to live, each reflecting a different facet of the same fundamental. Developing your spirituality allows you to understand and embody a proper way of life, and elevates you to the point where such a life is enjoyable. To the spiritual master, a purely hedonistic fun-seeking life would be unbearable, whereas to the average teenager, the life of a spiritual master would be unbearable.
Thus your goal shouldn't be to live a certain way, nor should it be to shift the focus of your desires, nor should it be to help others. It should be to develope your spirituality, which can be done through a number of mediums. As a result of spiritual progress your desires, and subsequently your actions, will naturally shift their focus. Your intentions will rise to a higher level and the example you set will be a better one than otherwise.
Helping yourself, which is a thoroughly enjoyable process, is the first step to helping others.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: the_phoenix]
#4068821 - 04/18/05 01:53 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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I agree with most of it... although I don't think that someone is required to develop spirituality. Unless, that is, you're talking about spirituality in the sense of soul development (without the typical religious connotations).
--
Isn't developing sprituality to live a certain way?  I don't see how this is going to help him with his particular scenario... although it is good advice, it doesn't further his case.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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egghead1
Nakedly Open
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: infidelGOD]
#4069105 - 04/18/05 03:29 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
Quote:
in order to make an omlette you have to break some eggs
do not try to justify your actions this way.
the ends don't justify the means.
This egg is hard boiled. Im not gonna end up as somebodies dinner. 
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 20 days
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: Turd]
#4069188 - 04/18/05 03:51 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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the things that are 'wrong' with the world are just part of its constant change and balance. i'd stick to exploring it rather than actively trying to change it, but of course, its up to you.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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 Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: Turd]
#4069402 - 04/18/05 04:56 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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and
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Turd
Dr. Rock
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1,909
Loc: Vulva, WA
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: Turd]
#4069952 - 04/18/05 07:10 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Thanks for the replies everyone.
The main thing that prompted my initial post was me considering getting more active in the libertarian party in my area. I'm not sure if the pros outweigh the cons when helping many can hurt a few.
I am always trying to develop and grow myself, but sometimes it seems like there's just so much screwed up stuff out there that I can't just sit by and let it happen like everyone else.
It's not like people support whats going on, we've just been conditioned to inaction. We should be in the throws of a revolution.
Sorry, I can't really synthesize any complete response to all your posts. I wish I could but it was more of an impulse post than anything, and thinking about the question and your replies just raises more questions for me.
I want to do more.... but how? Goddammit.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: Turd]
#4069971 - 04/18/05 07:14 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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you can't change things externally, only interally
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Depends on what you have at your disposable in terms of resources 
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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the_phoenix
Stranger
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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If you want to take action, perhaps start with what most tightly restricts your actions, with what is closest to you. It's best to lead by example because it's everyday life that shapes people, so take a stand in everyday life. Resist the social stereotypes by standing up for what you believe in, incidently which necessitates that you know what you believe in. Ultimately no party platform can serve as your truth, and the political system is so corrupt that I'd just let it implode of its own weight rather than try to fix it. So when you're with your friends and family, stand up for what's right, challenge their misconceptions, and always keep their best interests at heart. Change on a personal level is often the most challenging, not to mention rewarding and liberating.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Live life, or make a difference? [Re: the_phoenix]
#4070199 - 04/18/05 08:06 PM (19 years, 2 days ago) |
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Was that in response to me or you didn't use quick reply?
I don't need someone to tell me how to live.
I do agree with you on the social sterotyping, as well as the corruption exhibited in most ( if not all political systems). I only think change on a personal level is difficult if you refuse to grow, change IMO is more influenced by desire, rather then necessity. Some people (ok... most people) simply are hardwired into their current state, and see no need to expand .
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:
Depends on what you have at your disposable in terms of resources
Did communism make people more generous? Did capitalism make people more ambitious? Did the word of god prevent Adam and eve from taking the apple? Does spanking make a baby feel in his heart that it should not do what it did?
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Thought we were talking in respects to political structure... (as the thread was about this)
You can change a lot of shit externally, mindsets including lookt at the mass media, and the effect it has on society, loot at the bi-partisan politics, and how it makes most people feel content in society.
Communism:
The theory wasn't properly applied, it all turned out into a dictatorship, give me one solid example of communism true to the original theory (a nation), not a group of punk ass kids playing soldiers of the revolution of the working class. All I ask for is one example in history where the goal of communism wasn't used to fund a dictator's goals and to merely sell the dream and illusion of a Communist state.
Capitlism:
Most people gain motivition through rewards, which further provides motivion, and high motivation = ambition. Did not rewarding anyone for their efforts do anything for that matter? Do you fail to see what the concept of a competitive economic structure has done in way of promoting growth through the nature of incentive? Look at the corporations having the ambition to use a corrupt political system to their advantage, and to gain from it... not everyone is ambitious, but not everyone is much of anything with the exception of alive. Unless that is, we're including the dead as being ambitious, or any other state beyond... dead.
Adam and Eve:
Pricks, they fucked us over and you know it  . I'm not seriously going to talk about that as a realistic example, unless you show me a fucking talking snake. (no muppets)
Spanking a Baby:
Perhaps not a baby, but when they are slightly more developed yes. It's conditioning actions through negative stimulus. See pavolovian training. Kind of like prison... being shelled up and confined in one place for a while, especially with the posibility of being reamed your first day in, is a motivational element not to fuck up in accordance to the law. Does it work for everyone? No, not everything does, some people like to be reamed, some people choose to confine themselves, although it's more then evident, that indeed the external can do much in way of change... of course, it's all dependant on the individual that we're talking about.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/18/05 08:33 PM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Spanking a baby programs it not to do certain things, it is based on animalistic avoidance of fear and pain. Did it change the consciousness of baby regarding some social empathy? Nope
Mass media, it changes mindsets by force. But you think that mass media could ever make people wise by feeding them correct information? I think not.
In capitalism certain people grew, those people who felt opressed in communism as it was in reality, those people were by nature competitive and ambitious, those who weren't died of hunger.
Captialism did not make active ambitious people out of those who were "weak" and passive, it just destroyed those.
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Baby:
Did you expect a hand to do that much? Only the hand of god can do such, and you've yet to, as well as anyone else to prove that it does exist. Either way, the external most certainly changed the behavior... regardless of the mechanism employed. It could be suggested that it did impact their empathy though, as in regard to training animals (a baby compared to an animal, don't bitch folks, it's an example) punishment is used as a tool to enforce what is considered to be good, and bad.
Mass media:
Not necessarily by force, through repitition, and staying in line with one particular theme, to distract away from the true nature of intent. Did you expect people to ever be wise? It however could do so, and with enough shit being propogated on a daily basis, especially in regards to advertising compaigns, movies, newpapers, magazines, music.... indeed it could. You'd first have to share you idea of what wisdom is though...
Capitilism:
Capitilism and the notion of it, is also tied into evolutionary standpoints of survival of the fittest (evolution), and is akin to social darwinism as to it's true intent, not it's adaptation as we see today. (As America isn't a true capitilist society... where's this free market?).. the threat of one's survival based on true capitilism, does inspire motivation.
Once again, you've failed to provide an actual example of a true nation that has adapted communism as a it was intended in way of it's basis, not a gimmick used to gain support for a dictator's goals.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:
Once again, you've failed to provide an actual example of a true nation that has adapted communism as a it was intended in way of it's basis, not a gimmick used to gain support for a dictator's goals.
why should I do that? When did I say say communism was like in the books?
And you mistake behaviour for true revelation.
It is irrelevant how baby acts, it does not act out of awareness
--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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And as for god, he does not need a proof, but a good definition..
What if I toled you god is sky? Or that god was by calculator?
That way I have proven to you existence of god
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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Ok, well then please state that you're talking about fake communism.
Perhaps you should've suggested that was what you were looking for. I answered your questions, if you were looking for a particular aspect of it, allow me to know ahead of time.
Baby's aren't aware now... .... ... ...ok, not going to get into that. Anyhow, I said perhaps on something a little more developed... If you're spanking a baby, you've got more issues, then this forum can help you cope with.
--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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