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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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No Pain No Gain?
    #4066961 - 04/18/05 12:53 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

For the most part, this has seemed to be the case in life. I think about it sometimes and it contradicts a relatively recent epiphany I have had about not having to give up something to get more. It's a theory of mine that just had to do with giving more mental and emotional room to accommodate more in the physical or just that the giving comes from giving more allowance to the self. I posted about it some time ago.

Anyway, that still has come along with a growing type pain when the new stretch to expand and readjust can be uncomfortable and that's been the experience to date. It gets more mild with time and practice.

I have an idea/insight that gain without pain, even growing pains is doable.

Just haven't totally mastered it yet. Any one got any thoughts on this?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067227 - 04/18/05 02:12 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I agree on the thought of gain without pain being achievable... however gain without loss isn't... but theirs no point in discussing that though.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4067323 - 04/18/05 02:36 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Of course there is. Thats a part of the topic. Share with me why you think loss goes hand in hand with gain. I use to think that but I don't in theory anymore and have pulled off a few experiences where it wasn't the case. Mind you, it's been a few, the gain was managebly small and they did come with growing pains but no loss or exchange.

I want to get better at it. Maybe if you tell me why you think loss has to come with gain, I will get an insight between the lines on what to tweak out beter or something.

Just go for it and think of this thread like a brain storming session.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067451 - 04/18/05 03:35 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Sure it's do-able. How about people who lie cheat and steal to gain? They didn't suffer any pain in order to get something for nothing.

Maybe the better question is: Why is it painful? Isn't pain (I'm assuming emotional pain) just a perceived emotion? When we talk about the "pain" we had to go through in order to get somewhere in life, isn't it just the emotional toll we are talking about?

But even athletes experience physical pain when they are endeavoring some feat. So I suppose it isn't limited strictly to the emotional realm.

I suppose that "gain without pain" is do-able if we didn't have the human emotions that made us think it was painful in the first place.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067894 - 04/18/05 06:40 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Loss is associated with any gain. You gain new insight.. you lose ignorance. You gain more friends, you lose out on a more isolated state that you were prior to that.

Any instance of a gain, shall result in a loss of something, be it good or bad. In order for anything to gain, their needs to be some aspect of differentation in respect to the former position; which always results in some form of a loss within the confines of the previous state of being, before said gain.

Can you present an instance/scenario where this isn't applicable?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067963 - 04/18/05 07:55 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

some truth in it, but it's not a rule


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: Frog]
    #4068007 - 04/18/05 08:47 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Sure it's do-able. How about people who lie cheat and steal to gain? They didn't suffer any pain in order to get something for nothing.





I think people who lie, cheat, and steal to gain tend to suffer in their own way. It's usually a repressed form of suffering, and won't be acknowledged (by the individual) to be a result of their lifestyle.

(Just my 20 cents, after having had a few friends that I think fall into this category...)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068110 - 04/18/05 10:35 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Most pain is emotional resistance. There is a way to evolve beyond that if the trend of my living and learning is any indication.

One learns the art of surrender and one becomes painless.

Pain comes from ADDICTION to having things work out in a certain way . Freedom comes from a PREFERENCE that things work out in a certain way, but not being attached to that outcome.  :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: Icelander]
    #4068120 - 04/18/05 10:40 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Did you read Handbook To Higher Consciousness as well? :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4068181 - 04/18/05 11:25 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Psychoactive1984, I see what you're saying, but doesn't loss have a bit of a negative connotation? What about change?

I think the level of pain on a gain depends on how deeply we effectuate the change in question. For example, if I have an unhealthy desire tugging at me, there are a few ways I could respond. It's pulling me because I've temporarily fallen into, for whatever reason, a distracted mindstate, and it wants me to stay in that mindstate where my ego can thrive. I could indulge my desire and satisfy it in the most self-destructive of ways under the pre-text "You want this? [talking to myself] I'll give you this, in all its perverse illusion!" So then, for example, I eat until I'm way too stuffed, I feel sick, and I remember why the desire is bad in the first place. A lesson learnt the hard way, just because I couldn't get into a more profound and centered mindstate.

But I always can, and the more I do, the less painful is the change that the gain entails. If I'm faced with the same desire to eat?and boy do I know it well as munchies seem to manifest particularly strongly in me?then instead of giving in I can change my minstate, I can change the context within which the desire arises. I must go to the root of the desire and accept its energy. This is negative energy in that I have the desire because I feel lacking, which is the very symptom of my distracted egocentric mindstate.

This is a matter of being in control of your own self, of being able to surrender to and be totally honest with yourself. If I can trace the desire back to its roots then I can get at where the problem starts. To trace it back I must embrace it with transcendent love. At the root of the problem, there are only two choices, one saying "accept" and the other "deny". The problem is denial over something, forcing me to restrict my awareness, accordingly restricting my mindspace and necessitating a distraction to occupy the part of my awareness in denial that can no longer focus on the Now.

Throughout this process I have faith that, once I transcend the problem and expand my context of awareness, then my desire will have dissolved and I'll be at peace. And indeed it works like magic, because notice that I don't address the desire, but rather it's context. And sure enough, every time, the desire is forgotten once I choose to accept. The happiness I seek from eating can only be achieved through non-eating.

So I get at the roots and choose acceptance over denial, but the process of transmutation requires more than this dualistic manoeuver. I must follow this acceptance up through the spectrum of desire, in the same way that I followed my desire down to its roots. I must make manifest my acceptance by focus on the Now and literally forgetting that I ever desired anything whatsoever. I don't focus on forgetting the desire, but rather I focus on remembering my wholeness in the Now. Knowing that this is your true and innate state is blissful, it's the solution to all temptations, and allows for painless transmutation.

The ego is tricky as it would have me believe that refusing to gorge my stomach would lead to unhappiness, and that confronting this desire for food head-on would be painful. Hahaha! :lol:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4068185 - 04/18/05 11:27 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I have a problem with the aphorism because spiritual advances are not exactly gains, more like reconfigurations, discoveries or adjustments within.

many glimpses are not retained from day to day at all, one goes back to re-associate, almost any price would be paid, but no currency is valid at this border.

otherwise you could say that it applies to yogic or any other physical advances which are achieved or bartered in some way, (i.e. via effort or exchange) - that barter could be called pain, but it might also be pleasure or neutral.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068230 - 04/18/05 11:51 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"No pain no gain"

This depends on the activity. If I am banging my head against the wall, and it hurts, should I bang harder and make my head hurt more in order to achieve more gain? Of course not.

If I want to run a marathon, but have been a couch potato for 10 years and am 50 lbs. overweight, should I sprint out of the house and run as fast and as far as I can until I pull both hamstrings or worse have a massive heart attack? Of course not.

My point is that it's not the pain that creates the gain. It is the choice of activity, and how that activity is approached and monitored that creates the gain.

Using "no pain no gain" to good effect means that one must choose an activity that is appropriate to the individual, and the person must be able and willing to move out their comfort zone in order to achieve growth. Slow and steady wins the race. Pushing too hard can be self defeating and lead to injury. Awareness of one's present physical and mental state is key. Some days we feel like growing, other days we want to sleep all day. We should grow on the grow days and sleep on the sleep days. That is, don't fight your biorhythms. Two steps forward, one step back.

Having defined, written, realistic goals will help in any activity that involves growth and change. Keeping a log every day as to progress will help one to monitor current reality and adjust the growth rate or redefine the goal.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (04/18/05 11:56 AM)


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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4068283 - 04/18/05 12:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

IMO the key to gain (and loss) without pain is to move into viewing it all as "change," and letting go of the judgment about things and people and experiences passing through our lives. Only the definition of positive/negative, gain/loss, win/lose results in our experience of elation or pain as the natural process of life continues.


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OfflineJalruza
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: Frog]
    #4068330 - 04/18/05 12:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Sure it's do-able.  How about people who lie cheat and steal to gain?  They didn't suffer any pain in order to get something for nothing. 






that wouldnt be related to my earlier post about metro by any chance would it?
  :tongue:


--------------------
Time keeps ticking and running away
And It's taking us fast to a brand new free dimension
Too cool to mention well that's the intention
But some of us too dame blind to see
Jesus is the King Volume I
Jesus is the King Volume II
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: Jalruza]
    #4068352 - 04/18/05 12:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ewok said:
that wouldnt be related to my earlier post about metro by any chance would it?
  :tongue:




Considering the fact that the timestamp says that she made her post before your metro post.... :smirk:

:grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4068479 - 04/18/05 01:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
1) Psychoactive1984, I see what you're saying, but doesn't loss have a bit of a negative connotation? What about change?

I think the level of pain on a gain depends on how deeply we effectuate the change in question. For example, if I have an unhealthy desire tugging at me, there are a few ways I could respond. It's pulling me because I've temporarily fallen into, for whatever reason, a distracted mindstate, and it wants me to stay in that mindstate where my ego can thrive. I could indulge my desire and satisfy it in the most self-destructive of ways under the pre-text "You want this? [talking to myself] I'll give you this, in all its perverse illusion!" So then, for example, I eat until I'm way too stuffed, I feel sick, and I remember why the desire is bad in the first place. A lesson learnt the hard way, just because I couldn't get into a more profound and centered mindstate.

But I always can, and the more I do, the less painful is the change that the gain entails. If I'm faced with the same desire to eat?and boy do I know it well as munchies seem to manifest particularly strongly in me?then instead of giving in I can change my minstate, I can change the context within which the desire arises. I must go to the root of the desire and accept its energy. This is negative energy in that I have the desire because I feel lacking, which is the very symptom of my distracted egocentric mindstate.

This is a matter of being in control of your own self, of being able to surrender to and be totally honest with yourself. If I can trace the desire back to its roots then I can get at where the problem starts. To trace it back I must embrace it with transcendent love. At the root of the problem, there are only two choices, one saying "accept" and the other "deny". The problem is denial over something, forcing me to restrict my awareness, accordingly restricting my mindspace and necessitating a distraction to occupy the part of my awareness in denial that can no longer focus on the Now.

Throughout this process I have faith that, once I transcend the problem and expand my context of awareness, then my desire will have dissolved and I'll be at peace. And indeed it works like magic, because notice that I don't address the desire, but rather it's context. And sure enough, every time, the desire is forgotten once I choose to accept. The happiness I seek from eating can only be achieved through non-eating.

So I get at the roots and choose acceptance over denial, but the process of transmutation requires more than this dualistic manoeuver. I must follow this acceptance up through the spectrum of desire, in the same way that I followed my desire down to its roots. I must make manifest my acceptance by focus on the Now and literally forgetting that I ever desired anything whatsoever. I don't focus on forgetting the desire, but rather I focus on remembering my wholeness in the Now. Knowing that this is your true and innate state is blissful, it's the solution to all temptations, and allows for painless transmutation.

The ego is tricky as it would have me believe that refusing to gorge my stomach would lead to unhappiness, and that confronting this desire for food head-on would be painful. Hahaha! :lol:




1) Only if you look at the net result of change as negative... negativity, like all things subjective, is dependant on the observer.... all change will result in a  net loss and/or gain for that matter, so it's more in line with semantics, rather then being an actuality.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068632 - 04/18/05 02:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

vaccination :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: Frog]
    #4068641 - 04/18/05 02:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Sure it's do-able.  How about people who lie cheat and steal to gain?  They didn't suffer any pain in order to get something for nothing. 

Maybe the better question is:  Why is it painful?  Isn't pain (I'm assuming emotional pain) just a perceived emotion? When we talk about the "pain" we had to go through in order to get somewhere in life, isn't it just the emotional toll we are talking about?

But even athletes experience physical pain when they are endeavoring some feat.  So I suppose it isn't limited strictly to the emotional realm.

I suppose that "gain without pain" is do-able if we didn't have the human emotions that made us think it was painful in the first place.




Frog,

Lying cheating and stealing comes with pain in my book as being in pain is the initiator of those actions in the first place. That is not what I am talking about here.

That assumption is also what makes this a difficult topic to discuss because of those who believe in fixed or limited energy supply. I am talking about expanding space and pulling more free energy into play.

There is no unsolved mystery on how to lie cheat and steal, even children do it.

I'm talking in a whole diffeent league of energy dynamics here. Just wanted to clear that up. Now I am off to read the other replies. :smile:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068669 - 04/18/05 02:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

OMG you guys rock! So much good stuff came in on this one wow wow wow I a glad I decided to post it. Thanks.

I noticed when I read further after frogs that you JC said the same thing about the pain states associated with lying cheating and stealing.

I'm going to take some time to pull from all the good stuff and compile it together in a next reply.
The stuff about surrender, change, reconfigurations, release is all good good for making it more easily doable.

Oh psychoactive, one example of what you wanted for like what you said about loosing ignorance would be like this.

Say you gain awareness in an area you were once ignorant in. You said the loss comes from loosing the prior ignorance.

lets look at it from the underlying energy dynamics. Picture a small circle inside of a larger one. Everything outside of the smaller circle is what the small circle is still unaware "ignorant of". If the small circle expands itself to become aware of more of what it is the larger circle, it has only gained more awareness.

In this dynamic, the expanding smaller circle did not have to give up any part of itself to expand.

What you are seeing would be like if the small circle took from one portion of itself to go cover an area outside of it instead leaving a blank spot in the small circle , (loss for gain) If the small circle can increase its size to encompass more space. It looses nothing of itself in the process.

When I talked about growing pains, I was talking about the stretching of the smaller circle to encompass more space within the larger circle.

Now I am going to get back to absorb the other replies better.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: No Pain No Gain? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068813 - 04/18/05 03:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Oh psychoactive, one example of what you wanted for like what you said about loosing ignorance would be like this.

Say you gain awareness in an area you were once ignorant in. You said the loss comes from loosing the prior ignorance.

lets look at it from the underlying energy dynamics. Picture a small circle inside of a larger one. Everything outside of the smaller circle is what the small circle is still unaware "ignorant of". If the small circle expands itself to become aware of more of what it is the larger circle, it has only gained more awareness.

In this dynamic, the expanding smaller circle did not have to give up any part of itself to expand.

What you are seeing would be like if the small circle took from one portion of itself to go cover an area outside of it instead leaving a blank spot in the small circle , (loss for gain) If the small circle can increase its size to encompass more space. It looses nothing of itself in the process.





Nothing shall ever occur, it's impossible.... in way of nothing being but an idle concept with the imlplication of something :smile:. :shrug:

Anyhow, the circle lossed it's former stance, it's former nature, a change resulted form the gain, with a loss of it's previous implication (description). The circle has additionally gained more knwoledge, and lost it's old conception of the larger circle (assuming the circle is self aware, in terms of giving associated it as such). As much as you gain, you always lose :tongue:, even winning is a loss.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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