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OfflineBrAiN
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chinese protests japan
    #4065204 - 04/17/05 11:58 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So what do y'alls thinks? China's having massive protests against japan for

1) Their bid to be on the UN security council
2) Dispute over gas usage
and probably the most important
3) Japanese schoolbooks are trying to act like they didn't to anything wrong right before WWII started

In fact... I don't think the japanese ever apologized or even RECOGNIZED that NANKING happened.

I'm not a big fan of China.. but fuck it. I say Japan had this coming. WHich supprises me that the CNN poll shows that 91% of americans (at least the ones who took this poll) say that china owes japan an apology. Fuck that. China should have gotten an island of of japan or something after WWII.

I say... more power to the chinese restaurants... fuck up some more japanese restaurants. Thats what the restaurant owners get for opening a business in the city they invaded 60 years ago. I'm sayin.. if I moved to IRAQ and opened an AMERICAN BEEF HOUSE... Shit.. I'd be asking for it.


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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4065216 - 04/17/05 12:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well, first thing is first. Japanese resturants blow away chinese by far.

Now thats out of the way.

I think this is good news. I hope the tension between those two keeps brewing. It will give us power of negotiation and the ability to choose a side when an opportunity arises.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: looner2]
    #4065224 - 04/17/05 12:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

ahhaha.. interesting perspective

and true... I'd hate to see the sushi joint down the block here go up in flames. I need my sushi


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4066489 - 04/17/05 10:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

USA would ally with Japan in a heartbeat, but the chinese are no strangers of atrocities themselves... They've killed thousands of dissidents in their country and persecuted tibetans.

Japan all the way. Plus they bring us playstations and crazy videogames.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #4066816 - 04/18/05 12:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

well..I agree.. that's why I'm against china being in the U.N. human rights council.. wtf...

but.. none of that happened until china went commie.. which was almost a direct result of WWII... a lot of countries became communist after japan invaded.. north korean, china, vietnam... etc... i guess it was their way of getting sucked into the soviet blob to defend themselves...


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4067450 - 04/18/05 03:34 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

you don't see the Chinese putting up a Tienamin Square Memorial do yoO?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4067910 - 04/18/05 06:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> n fact... I don't think the japanese ever apologized or even RECOGNIZED that NANKING happened.

Japan has officially apologized something like fourteen times to China for what happened... and it isn't as if China's government has a lot of room to complain about the unjust killing of their people...

> i guess it was their way of getting sucked into the soviet blob to defend themselves...

After WWII, when the allies were supposed to pull out of the various countries, the soviet union did not. There was no asking the soviet blob to help defend themselves... the soviet blob simply wouldn't leave... thus a lot of Asia became communist.


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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4067921 - 04/18/05 07:01 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BrAiN said:
well..I agree.. that's why I'm against china being in the U.N. human rights council.. wtf...

but.. none of that happened until china went commie.. which was almost a direct result of WWII... a lot of countries became communist after japan invaded.. north korean, china, vietnam... etc... i guess it was their way of getting sucked into the soviet blob to defend themselves...




~Spanish-American War...
~American Slaughter of Indians...
~American slave ownership...

Don't hold another countries actions against them indefinetly, times change, as well as the political structure associated with said country. No need to blame it on the nation as a whole, as it isn't the people directly suggesting they want an action commited, it is those in power that determine the true nature of the atrocities. Unless we care to suggest that Germany is the same as it was under Hitler as it is now.... times change, power changes, it's those in leadership positions that are ultimately responsible for an action. No need to hold the past over another country, holding them accountable for their present actions is more then enough.

They should both apologize and get over old shit, past actions, and bitter rivalries in mass produced electronic goods :tongue:... as it's not really going anywhere beyond a petty squable of international levels.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4068105 - 04/18/05 10:29 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

China hasn't changed.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4068542 - 04/18/05 02:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Changed in respects to what Baby_Hitler? It's policies, style of leadership, or treatment of people? Please specify, as China has indeed changed a hell of a lot. (not necessarily for the better :tongue:)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/18/05 02:18 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4068793 - 04/18/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

this isn't really about apologies for past actions
it's more about japan's current actions (honoring war criminals, whitewashing history) and the balance of power in asia

as for japan's "apologies", actions speak louder than words.
what if the chancellor of germany made an annual trip to auschwitz, not to memorialize the dead, but to honor the soldiers and guards who worked there??? how would jews feel about that? and what if germany taught its children that germany was the real "victim" in WWII and the holocaust was just an "incident"?

at least germans today know their place in history and realize that the nazis were truly evil human beings. japanese have no clue why they are so hated by their neighbors. well, now they do.


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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: infidelGOD]
    #4068833 - 04/18/05 04:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:lol: teaching objective history in schools? Gimme a break. Although some countries are more true to the case then others, their is always a powerful message of "spin" for the country teaching history... Look at most of USA's history in terms of the wars we went through... most, if not all wars are justified, and the U.S. reigns as a good guy...

Read a some books about the war of 1812 from both sides, sure you'll find a few discrepencies. The nature of everything, is merely what is suggested it is.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4068879 - 04/18/05 04:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

who said anything about "objective history" (if such a thing exists)?

do you support japan whitewashing and distorting history because everyone else does it too?

what about the hypocrisy of "apologizing" for war crimes, while continuing honor the men who commited those crimes?
do you feel those apologies are genuine?


Quote:

their is always a powerful message of "spin" for the country teaching history...




that is true, but as you said "some countries are more true to the case then others", and japan is one of those countries that has not been true to its history.

Quote:

Look at most of USA's history in terms of the wars we went through... most, if not all wars are justified, and the U.S. reigns as a good guy..




not really. read some history textbooks. there is a much more nuanced view of american history.

Quote:

Read a some books about the war of 1812 from both sides, sure you'll find a few discrepencies.




thats a terrible example.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4068986 - 04/18/05 05:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How has it's stance on the civil liberties of it's citizens changed since the Tiennenmen Square Massacre?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: infidelGOD]
    #4069002 - 04/18/05 05:09 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Does the Japanese government somehow censor accounts of atrocities committed against Chinese by Japanese in WWII.

Is it Illegal in Japan to talk about it?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4069138 - 04/18/05 05:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

no and no. but that's not the issue. there is no need to censor when most people don't even care to know the past.
there is a disturbing trend towards justifying and whitewashing wartime atrocities in textbooks, and this, unfortunately, reflects the views of the japanese government.


In Japan's New Texts, Lessons in Rising Nationalism
By NORIMITSU ONISHI
April 17, 2005

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/weekinreview/17onishi.html

TOKYO - In a region where history remains unresolved, the fight over the past is often a fight over the future. Seldom does it crystallize as perfectly as it did last week, in the biggest anti-Japan protests in China since the two countries re-established relations in 1972. Oddly, to Westerners at least, the focus of Chinese fury was Japan's approval of junior high school history textbooks that critics say whitewash Japanese aggression in Asia.

This wasn't the only textbook tempest, and it may not be the last. Not only are Chinese authorities bracing for further protests, but just before this week's marches, Japan objected that China's patriotic education breeds anti-Japanese sentiments, and South Korea castigated the Japanese textbooks for allegedly trying to justify a colonialist past.

Although it may yet be decades before the three countries agree on history, they have long shared a common trait that helps explain how revisions can stir such deep emotions. Their students learn history through government-approved textbooks that are, especially with nationalism rising in all three countries, useful tools in shaping national identities. Since the textbooks require the central government's imprimatur, they are taken as a reflection of the views of the current leaders.

"In all three countries, there is a tendency to propagandize history," said Jee Soo Gol, a professor of history education at Kongju National University in South Korea.

The extraordinary fury at Japan stems not just from its 20th-century atrocities, but from what its neighbors describe as its increasing attempts to evade past wrongdoing. And they have a point. A look at the new textbooks and those from two previous cycles, 2002 and 1997, shows an unmistakable backpedaling on some of the most contentious points.

The most glaring example surrounds the issue of "comfort women," the euphemism for the women, mostly Asian, who were forced into sexual servitude by Japanese authorities during World War II. In 1997, all seven textbooks included passages about them, explaining, for instance, that Japan "took away young Korean and other women as comfort women to battlefields." In 2002, the number fell to three out of eight; this time, only two out of eight acknowledge the comfort women, and none use that term.

During the war, Tokyo dealt with a severe labor shortage by forcing hundreds of thousands of Asians to work in Japan. In 1997, the textbook published by Tokyo Shoseki and now used by 52 percent of all junior high schools stated that "700,000 people were forcibly taken to Japan between 1939 and 1945" as laborers. The 2002 edition omits any number, and says, "In order to make up for a labor shortage, Japan and Germany forcibly brought in foreign people and made them work in mines and factories." The newest edition cuts out "forcibly" and says only, "There were Koreans and Chinese who were brought to Japan and made to work against their will."

Nobukatsu Fujioka, the founder of the nationalist Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform, said that textbooks focusing on Japan's alleged wartime wrongs were unhealthy for the country's students.

"I established this association because I thought it was a serious problem that this masochistic education is making the youth lose their pride and confidence in their own country," said Mr. Fujioka.

"The words 'war comfort women' disappeared from textbooks in the last 10 years," he added. "It is a fruit of our movement that the false fact was expelled from textbooks."

The changes are also in keeping with a strong rightward shift in Japan.

"There would be a problem if the textbooks state something that the government does not assert, or if they go beyond the bounds of what the government asserts," Shinzo Abe, one of Japan's most popular politicians, said recently. "It's natural that the textbooks follow the government line."

Given the scrutiny and Japan's comparatively long record of democracy, the textbooks here are perhaps more balanced than others in the region. China's textbooks, for instance, teach that Chinese resistance, not the United States, defeated Japan in the war; they say nothing of the postwar Great Leap Forward, in which some 30 million Chinese died because of Mao Zedong's misguided agrarian policies.

In South Korea, which democratized in the late 1980's, textbooks have improved, though certain taboos remain, such as any mention of Koreans who collaborated with Japanese colonizers.

Shin Ju Baek, an education expert at Seoul National University, said that descriptions of the colonial period used to focus only on Japanese exploitation and Korean resistance, ignoring the role of Japanese colonialism in Korea's modernization.

"There is still an emphasis on exploitation," Mr. Sin said. "But textbooks now include other issues, such as the consumer culture that developed during Japanese occupation. Our textbooks are getting better. But Japan is a problem - it's going in the other direction."


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4070197 - 04/18/05 10:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Does the Japanese government somehow censor accounts of atrocities committed against Chinese by Japanese in WWII.

Is it Illegal in Japan to talk about it?




I'm not saying China isn't fucked up... they've losened the communist hold a little bit though... and just because they've done some stupid thigns doen't mean that you should belittle what japan did to them in the 30's and 40's.

The tiananmen square massacre was a direct result of communism taking a hold of china.. which was a cause of japan invading china (amongst other things such as russia helping toss the idea of communism around to prevent further attacks and unite the ppl).


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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: infidelGOD]
    #4070710 - 04/19/05 12:15 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
1) who said anything about "objective history" (if such a thing exists)?

2) do you support japan whitewashing and distorting history because everyone else does it too?

3) what about the hypocrisy of "apologizing" for war crimes, while continuing honor the men who commited those crimes?
do you feel those apologies are genuine?


Quote:

their is always a powerful message of "spin" for the country teaching history...




4) that is true, but as you said "some countries are more true to the case then others", and japan is one of those countries that has not been true to its history.

Quote:

Look at most of USA's history in terms of the wars we went through... most, if not all wars are justified, and the U.S. reigns as a good guy..




5) not really. read some history textbooks. there is a much more nuanced view of american history.

Quote:

Read a some books about the war of 1812 from both sides, sure you'll find a few discrepencies.




6) thats a terrible example.





1) Seemed implied in way of teaching about the actual incident that occured, and the teaching of it, figured I'd expand on the subject.


2) Fuck no! I'm 1/4 Japaneese, although that has nothing to do with it; I'm merely suggesting that it's going to happen.


3) Do they need to be? Do you feel half the shit that those who run countries say is genuine? I'd hope not.

--Short answer; No. Nor do I get a genuine sense of sincerity from most countries political ambitions, in way of their leaders messages.


4) Agreed. Although, the textbooks are out, and history will be rewritten through interpretations, and justifications of actions.


5) Depends on which countries, attempt not to generalize please. We could talk about imperialism, and blatant disregard for law, and full justification of action, but It's prolly better that we don't... as it's all in the past, and bitching about it does no good. It's only nuanced as we have power and we are the victors, are message wins. If Germany in WW2 would've won the war, and dominated Europe (hypothetically speaking) their would be much more support for his idealogy... as the only thing that resulted in the demise of it was losing the war. (and it's still around unfortuanetly)


6) :shrug: I know, but it's a quick read. You got the point I was making I hope.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: BrAiN]
    #4071608 - 04/19/05 07:01 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

This just reinforces my arguement that government has no business teaching (or regulating) history.


History is a religion, and as such has no place in an American public school system.


Besides, it's not like China never did anything to Japan. I'm sure China'a textbooks are wildly inaccurate.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: chinese protests japan [Re: Seuss]
    #4072730 - 04/19/05 02:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> n fact... I don't think the japanese ever apologized or even RECOGNIZED that NANKING happened.

Japan has officially apologized something like fourteen times to China for what happened... and it isn't as if China's government has a lot of room to complain about the unjust killing of their people...

> i guess it was their way of getting sucked into the soviet blob to defend themselves...

After WWII, when the allies were supposed to pull out of the various countries, the soviet union did not. There was no asking the soviet blob to help defend themselves... the soviet blob simply wouldn't leave... thus a lot of Asia became communist.





This is correct.

However the soviets had their hands in a lot of the communist revolutions in Asia. They supplied arms to the Chinese and supplied arms to North Korea and Vietnam. However we went into Vietnam thinking the Vietnamese were colloborating with the Chinese when infact they both hated eachother. China and Russia did not like eachother as well and Mongolia was more of a buffer zone from China and Russia. This is why the Chinese started manufacturing their own weapons like the copies of Ak47's Type 2 machine guns.

Now Ho Chi Minh who pretty much started the Vietnam war. Had studied in Moscow for a good while and appreciated Engels and Marxist philosophy. He saw the imperialism of French Indochina and despised their treatment of vietnamese locals. Now when North Vietnam became a seperate country. The north Vietnamese needed a good port of action. Thus they needed South Vietnam which had open sea ports and would increase monetary gain and industry.

The North Vietnamese ports were all shallow water and not viable for a port of call. So the north Vietnamese invaded South Vietnam. The war was started for simple economic gain.

Now someone previously said that China had no problems under a nationalistic government this is wrong. The Government under Chang Kai Chek (sp) had persecuted dissidents for years and this in essence is why Communism had reached such a peak in China.

Most revolutions in countries like this have started because of a Nationalistic repression of dissident forces and through out history has been repeated.

The Persecution of Christian Jews and the middle class through out the 1600's and 1700's brought revolutions in France, England,Germany as well. The repression of the middle class and subjugation of the middle class is the stepping stone of all revolutions in modern society.

Take Saudia Arabia for a quick glance. Their Nationalistic Government enforces tough rules which have led to a subjugation of the middle class. This subjugation usually turns a country into either 2 classes. The wealthiest 5 percent and the poor 95%. This is why Saudia Arabia is on the brink of a Civil War.

The same can be said about Mexico and many countries as well. The government in Mexico encourages their citizens to move to the united states to send OUR currency to thier country. While the war from the Zapatistas rages on. This country will face a series of new threats of revolution

If something is not changed modern society will be on the brink of collapse or we will just continue to relive history over and over.


Edited by The_Red_Crayon (04/19/05 02:56 PM)


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