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InvisibleRavus
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The Bible
    #4060706 - 04/15/05 11:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

What's all the hubbub about this book?  :confused: I've started reading it, and am only finding continuous mindless contradictions and annoying flaws.

Maybe as I read more of it I'll gain something out of it, but even within the first few pages I had questions.

For example, it says, "The serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made," and then goes on to show how the serpent does his traditional role in the Adam and Eve story. But it specifically says God created him, and if God is omnipotent and all-knowing, how the hell could he create a serpent that was crafty by accident? The only conclusion we can draw is, knowing that God created this crafty serpent, and assuming God is all-knowing and all-powerful, God created this serpent to make Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge. God knew the psychology of everything he created, and knew all of time. Yet even Freud could have looked at the personalities of the ingenuous, child-like Adam and Eve combined with a crafty serpent and a forbidden tree with delicious apples and drawn the obvious conclusion.

I looked over this though, thinking it just another one of those Christian bumps in the road.

And the story continued, after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, "then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden..." Since when does 1) an all-powerful, all-knowing God who created everything in existence, who is infinite and all-mighty, walk? Since when does he make noise? But I ignored this and continued.  "and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the Garden. But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?'"

Hmm... so a simple creation of dust can hide from an all-knowing God? For that matter, if God knows everything, how can you hide from him? And if God knows everything, why the hell would he call "Where are you?" This makes no sense.

"He answered, 'I heard you in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.'
And he said, 'Who told you that were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?'"

God's really pretty clueless eh? It could be argued that God was just prodding Adam to get him to confess, but this seems a bit egotistical for the GOD of everything. Either way, God comes off as a fool or a jackass.

And these flaws are within the first TWO PAGES of the Bible. I can't wait to read the rest of it.

Then God rambles on about the serpent and such, and Adam and Eve are expelled and have kids, as everybody knows who's heard the story. But the odd part is, Adam and Eve had kids, who had more kids. Where did this kids come from? Logically, unless God threw in some wildcards not mentioned, all humanity was created by incest. Brothers and sisters of Adam and Eve decided to get horny, fuck and produce more little incestual kids who fucked their siblings? That'd explain why humanity's so screwed up, but it's a bit odd for a holy book.  :rolleyes:

Maybe I just have high standards of wisdom and things fitting together after reading the Tao Te Ching, the Gospel of Thomas and Thus Spoke Zarathustra, but for the #1 best-seller of all time, the Bible's really quite shitty. I've read quite a bit into it, and it seems perfect for mindless sheep.

For anyone who wants actual knowledge, I'd recommend skipping the Bible and reading the above three books until you get enough curiousity to work your way through this book that's so holy they decided at best to make it using mediocre writing, loose plots and sparse details. If God submitted this piece of trash to a publisher today, they'd probably get a few paragraphs through it and toss it into the trash.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4060738 - 04/15/05 11:52 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Thomas Jefferson created his own Bible by eliminating everything but the words of Jesus. I think he was on to something there.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: The Bible [Re: Jellric]
    #4060772 - 04/16/05 12:07 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't really don't know what to say to an atheist that can't understand the bible. :shrug: Try applying the principle of charity while remembering that the person who penned Genesis lived many thousands of years ago.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Bible [Re: Jellric]
    #4060778 - 04/16/05 12:09 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The words of Jesus were rather wise, which is why I like the Gospel of Thomas. I seriously doubt the Bible reflects the words of Jesus even remotely.

Jesus was probably an enlightened man who found God within. I doubt he would've wasted time writing about how this God was walking through a garden and making noise and two of his creation heard him and hid and God had to question them to get answers, because it doesn't really contribute anything. It's like reading a children's short story rather than the words of an enlightened man.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4060802 - 04/16/05 12:18 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

the bibles nothing but a book of lies


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4060810 - 04/16/05 12:21 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Who wrote Genesis?

And,

Why do you prefer the Gospel of Thomas the Gospels of Mark, Luke, Matthew, or John?


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus] * 1
    #4060816 - 04/16/05 12:23 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
What's all the hubbub about this book?  :confused: I've started reading it, and am only finding continuous mindless contradictions and annoying flaws.

For example, it says, "The serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made," and then goes on to show how the serpent does his traditional role in the Adam and Eve story. But it specifically says God created him, and if God is omnipotent and all-knowing, how the hell could he create a serpent that was crafty by accident? The only conclusion we can draw is, knowing that God created this crafty serpent, and assuming God is all-knowing and all-powerful, God created this serpent to make Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge. God knew the psychology of everything he created, and knew all of time. Yet even Freud could have looked at the personalities of the ingenuous, child-like Adam and Eve combined with a crafty serpent and a forbidden tree with delicious apples and drawn the obvious conclusion.




Dont take the Bible as a literal truth....but try to understand the metaphor behind the stories. (thats all the bible really is....a group of stories that try to teach a moral lesson.)



Quote:

And the story continued, after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, "then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden..." Since when does 1) an all-powerful, all-knowing God who created everything in existence, who is infinite and all-mighty, walk? Since when does he make noise?




Again dont try to read it as a literal fact. Think of "god" as a parent/Father, angry over a disobedient child, coming into their room.


Quote:

But I ignored this and continued.  "and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the Garden. But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?'"

Hmm... so a simple creation of dust can hide from an all-knowing God? For that matter, if God knows everything, how can you hide from him? And if God knows everything, why the hell would he call "Where are you?" This makes no sense.





This book is FULL of metaphors.


We can all hide from "god" if we want. We have the ability to be "god's" by denying our creator.

Quote:

"He answered, 'I heard you in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.'
And he said, 'Who told you that were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?'"

God's really pretty clueless eh? It could be argued that God was just prodding Adam to get him to confess, but this seems a bit egotistical for the GOD of everything. Either way, God comes off as a fool or a jackass.




Sounds like a parent trying to get their child to realize how/why they are in trouble.

They didn't know what it meant to be "naked" before they ate from the "tree of knowledge".

Now they had "pride/vanity".

The true "original sin"

Quote:

And these flaws are within the first TWO PAGES of the Bible. I can't wait to read the rest of it.




They are only flaws if you try to take it as a literal fact/truth.

Think of these stories as folk lore/myth.....told to prove a point.

The hard part (sometimes) is trying to understand what the stories mean

Quote:

Then God rambles on about the serpent and such, and Adam and Eve are expelled and have kids, as everybody knows who's heard the story. But the odd part is, Adam and Eve had kids, who had more kids. Where did this kids come from?





Dont think of Adam and Eve as singular people...

Think of them as all the males and females of the human race.


The bible dosent make any sense if you try to take it as a fact.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4060858 - 04/16/05 12:32 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If you find contradictions... you're reading the wrong version :tongue:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/16/05 12:39 AM)


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4060880 - 04/16/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

those contradictions are your own. Your comparing what you believe to what it says, thats not a good way of evaluating a work. Digest it independently of your beliefs, and only then compare.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4060884 - 04/16/05 12:37 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Read the first couple of chapters of Ego and Archetype: Individuation and the Religious Function of the Psyche by Edward Edinger for a much more eloquent answer than I could provide.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Bible [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4060894 - 04/16/05 12:40 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
If you find ocntradictions... you're reading the wrong version :tongue:




That lousy King James..... I think he forgot to take his brain medicinies that he gets from the National Health.... :grin:

Anyways, the story that you just illustrated makes much more sense when God is understood to be an extra-terrestrial.  :eek:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The Bible [Re: niteowl]
    #4060909 - 04/16/05 12:45 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Niteowl, the bible is to be taken as fact no?

What of revelation and the anti-christ? And the end of the world, and the tyranny, and the mark, the numbers, all the bullshit symbolism? Those are to be taken as a literal prediction of the end aren't they? (Although described through generalizations, and abstract as hell to keep everyone guessing).

I don't see how people suggest to not take it literary, and yet, IMO revelations reveals that it isn't to be taken literally...

I guess we need an instruction manual for the good ol' book as well. I don't see why that is taken as symbolic, with clear designations of 144,000 the sheep, heaven, hell, etc... Maybe heaven and following the word's of god weren't meant to be taken literally as well? Or is it that it's just so generalized that we all come to different conclusions and the absolute nature of the bible... is anything but absolute?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Bible [Re: niteowl]
    #4060990 - 04/16/05 01:04 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I would agree, but for the fact that the Bible is not taken as a series of metaphors and parables for life, it is spoken of as if it was literal. The conservatives of all religions, Christians, Muslims, Jews, all seem to regard their books as literal facts rather than metaphors for life.

And when they are taken as literal, it really starts to break down and flaws develop. I believe, if Jesus even spoke of them, that Heaven and Hell are symbolic of this moment right now, where we put ourselves in Hell by breaking away from God and immersing ourself in suffering because of it, while you can rise to Heaven, or become enlightened, by realizing God and containing love.

Of course, that's the problem with taking the Bible symbolically, is that Christians lose a lot of their case, as they do take Heaven and Hell literally, along with mostly everything else. You can't really talk about a holy book and say some parts of the story are literal and some are metaphors, otherwise people can more easily break it down and faith is lost in parts of the book by the normal sheep, so they create a protective shield by saying all of it is literal. Which, to an outside observer, seems completely ridiculous.

As for the comment that an atheist could not understand the Bible, that seems rather incorrect, as I have read and loved other holy books without being part of their religions. Spirituality is not given to the precious few who conform to a certain label, it is universal.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4061088 - 04/16/05 01:22 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
they create a protective shield by saying all of it is literal. Which, to an outside observer, seems completely ridiculous.





You did a good job of highlighting that too and all from the first two pages. As a kid I saw it that way.

My husband decided to check out the hub bub of it when he was around 26. He started to write a book on his interpretation too. It went sort of like yours and was sooooo funny anyone who read it had tears pouring from their eyes in laughter. He made it sound like the National Enquirer of that era full of scandals, the whos who and dysfunctional families.

From what I read here, it seems that the majority interested in the Bibles teachings do take it from the metaphorical not literal approach. I dig Jesus's metaphors.  :thumbup:

I must say, I saw a show about a group attemtpting to recreate the possibility of the Noahs Ark story in its literal text and was dumbfounded to see grown adults do this. Like Noah had access to two of every animal species on the planet in his location :confused:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Bible [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4061193 - 04/16/05 01:50 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I must say, I saw a show about a group attemtpting to recreate the possibility of the Noahs Ark story in its literal text and was dumbfounded to see grown adults do this. Like Noah had access to two of every animal species on the planet in his location :confused:




Not to mention how he was able to fit these millions and millions of animals onto an ark, and be able to provide for their survival during the duration of the flood.... :smirk:

I have this image of Noah sitting there by a pond, with a huge net, trying to scoop up fish, screaming at them everytime he misses... "Fools! This is for your own good! I have to save you from the large amount of water that will cause us all to perish!". :grin:

You know, 'cause they are fish and everything. :wink: :wink: :wink:

:lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4061281 - 04/16/05 02:24 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Jesus was probably an enlightened man who found God within. I doubt he would've wasted time writing about how this God was walking through a garden and making noise and two of his creation heard him and hid and God had to question them to get answers, because it doesn't really contribute anything. It's like reading a children's short story rather than the words of an enlightened man.

Perhaps he spoke to them on their level. One of the first things you learn in speech class or writing class is to speak or write to your audience on their level using words they are able to understand. In the case of Jesus the crowds he was addressing were, in spiritual terms, children. So children's tales would actually be very appropriate. It seems to me that if he spoke in any other way his words would have been lost on them.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Re: The Bible [Re: Jellric]
    #4061460 - 04/16/05 03:36 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

the bible is both historical and metaphorical, alot of the jewish history is possibly true, ravus, Jesus taught that we are to be like sheep, does that mean we are to grow wool and say "bah"? come on now, we know better than that.

Noah's ark is very much possiible, considering it was the CLEAN animals noah was to put on his ark, and the world in there times was the KNOWN world, probally a small area around the dead sea (small from a satelite point of view).

where did cain and the rest of the world find there wives? well, if were gonna see that story as literally, i don't see why them getting there wives the same way adam got eve is'nt a good enough answer.

besides, the bible only has one account of adam and eve, there are others with varying ways of telling it..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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Re: The Bible [Re: JCoke]
    #4061486 - 04/16/05 03:46 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

correct me if i'm wrong, but in the gospel of thomas, is'nt there something about women being turned into men so they can get into heaven? (this could have been some other book i read.)


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The Bible [Re: Ravus]
    #4062318 - 04/16/05 02:07 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The more the words, the less the meaning and how does that benefit anyone?
Ecclesiates 6:11


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Bible [Re: infidelGOD]
    #4062406 - 04/16/05 02:52 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

find about a hundred or so, various trip reports..

mix them together, (just fill in the blanks) ...
then you got what? ... oh.. a collection of trip reports combined to be just one? hahah I'm just playing.. :P


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Disclaimer!?


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