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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4063975 - 04/16/05 11:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Cognitive dissonance is a position the mind takes to minimize the amount of conflict between cognitions. If you take cognitions in a wider sense, to include opinions and mental thoughts based on evidence, cognitive dissonance does occur, because a conservative has the opinion that Bush is a great guy with no or very few flaws and problems, yet the mental thoughts created by perceptual external evidence differ from this opinion, creating conflict, and hence cognitive dissonance.

An example of cognitive dissonance is if someone buys a brand of washing machine, and then evidence comes out that there is another brand of better washing machines for cheaper. Cognitive dissonance will occur, and the way the brain deals with it involves the factors of the reversibility of their decision (Can I take it back or not?), the importance of having the quality and price of the washing machine, and the length of time they spent saving up for it and thinking about getting it. This applies to the current situation, except replacing the washing machine with Bush.

http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

I'm sure your arrogance is warranted, so if I am wrong, please explain to me why.

And I notice you tend to discount the subconscious in a person's decisions. I do not. I believe the subconscious is behind these decisions, because honestly, the conscious mind does not, for the most part, deal with the everyday choice of deciding whether or not a past opinion faced with new evidence should require change and if so what. For most people, it tends to be a seemingly immediate reaction with no conscious thought required, which would be the subconscious. If you thought your girlfriend was loyal to you, and you walk in on her in bed with another guy, no conscious thought is required to immediately change that past opinion. You may put conscious thought into it later, but for the most part it is already subconsciously decided and implemented into the conscious mind. Bush is the girlfriend some once thought loyal caught in bed with conflicting evidence.

Now that all the useless psychology talk is over, I'll address the real issues.

Quote:

There were plenty of reasons given and every SINGLE one was good enough for me. I disagree very strongly with the ridiculous assertion that there were much greater threats than Iraq. The greatest threat from Iraq was that it continued to thumb it's nose at the US and the UN. My idea of credibility is that if you say "If you don't stop I'm going to take you out" you have to follow through. This has been a very productive message. See Libya. See Syria. See everybody else who now knows that they will not be allowed to fuck with us. There actually is a poke that we won't countenance.




You have a lower expectation of reasons to spend tens of billions of the taxpayers dollars and American lives than me then I guess. That is the differences in our personality. I believe the Iraq war wasn't worth any of the American sacrifices we made, between our world credibility, our massive amounts of money that could've gone to much more useful areas, and the troops, reporters and innocent civilians, both Iraqi and American, that have died. You don't. You may have lower standards, but I believe we should only kill people and waste money when we have to. Iraq was nowhere near qualified to stage an attack before they had even done anything, in my point of view, as that's simply America acting as the world police, staging pre-emptive attacks without global support and taking mostly all of the debt and problems of being the world police.

And now that I think back on it, what were the TONS of reasons given? I remember weapons of mass destruction, which was found to be bullshit, and later on, brutality to his people a decade or so earlier, which really isn't important to me seeing as there's much much worse brutality going on as we speak than there was in Iraq. See: China (carries out over 4,000 executions a year, forces people into "re-education" labor camps,) North Korea (estimated 150,000 forced labor camps, along with punishment of innocent family members and friends,) Zimbabwe (killed or tortured over 70,000 people), Saudi Arabia (citizens subject to random arrests and torture, nonviolent protesters often flogged) and Sudan (citizens routinely bombed, tortured, massacred and raped, over 2,000,000 people killed in 20 year Civil War).

So as for who is the greatest threat, to human rights see above, of whom I consider all to be equal or worse than Iraq, and as for weapons of mass destruction, erm... mostly everybody, seeing as Iraq had none.  :smirk:

But seriously, Sudan is much worse than Iraq for the atrocities that are committed there, North Korea is much more of a threat than Iraq in terms of weapons, Iran is actually trying to get nuclear capabilities,  and there are many more. In terms of world peace, Israel is much more of a threat than Iraq, with many UN violations, the illegal capture of people using a KGB-like force and the tension it creates with other countries in the region.

And what do you mean, other countries get the message now? They don't. See Libya, see Syria, maybe, but see Iran, see North Korea. The only thing countries seem to have learned is the only way to stop the U.S. from arbitrarily fucking with you is to get nuclear capabilities.

Personally, I believe Iran, North Korea and other countries have "thumbed their nose" at us more than Iraq ever did. They admit, directly or indirectly, that they are trying to attain nuclear capability and weapons of mass destruction while Iraq seemed to mainly just be sitting there twiddling its thumbs, when Bush decided to storm in, with barely any support from most countries in the world, and cause even more global problems.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Ravus]
    #4065166 - 04/17/05 09:37 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yes Iran and N Korea are problems. A huge part of the problem is the outside help being given to them, specificly Russian and French technology, at least to Iran. I anticipate bombing raids on Iran before they are actually successful. As far as N Korea, I just don't know. The fucking Chinese should be reasonably expected to do something but I think they are holding back because they want a bargaining chip to play against the Taiwan situation.

None of this, however, has anything to do with Iraq or the fact that our finally expressed willingness to act has caused some other scum to clean up their acts somewhat. This is not a bad thing.

If you want to expand the definition of cognitive dissonance to such a broad range that it can describe any situation in which a previously held belief is revealed to be false I think it loses it's value. In most cases the dissonance is quickly alleviated by changing your belief and any pathology resultant from dissonance is headed off. I don't find your use of the term here relevant. I myself felt absolutely no dissonance whatsoever about our failure to find any significant amounts of WMDs. The reason for the invasion was Saddass's refusal to allow the mandated inspections. There were other reasons as well, notably support for terrorism and continued oppression of Iraqi nationals outside of the ruling Baathist clique. I have no intention whatsoever of going over all that again here. There have been too many threads about this already, with supporting links that I am not going to search for yet again.


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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4065207 - 04/17/05 09:59 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
their not conservatives.. their neoconservatives...





kind of how liberals don't like being called liberals anymore... they now prefer the term... 'progressive'.

:wink:

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4065209 - 04/17/05 10:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
they just hated Kerry.




amen...

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OfflineBrAiN
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Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
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Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4065223 - 04/17/05 10:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I was indifferent to the war on iraq... i think about how stupid it was to say this war was about WMD"s... i thinkk bush is a douchebag for trying to tell us it was... although... at the same time... givign the iraqi ppl freedom... ya know.. it's hard to weigh... we all know most of the insurgents in iraq aren't even iraqi.. sure bush is partly to blame but no one is twisting the iranian's, the saudi's the afghani's etc's arms and FORCING them to blow up their own shit.

I think Bush's hard stance on N Korea is a good thing. Kim Jong Il has lied and manipulated everyone long enough. He waves around missles and nukes demanding money , food, aid to stop building them. When we give it to them, he doesnt keep up his end of the bargain and then starts waving them around again like a little baby. Fuck him... and fuck north korea. I hope their gov't goes down in flames for the atrocities they've commited. I also think he's right about Iran. We all know Iran is funding terrorists so tehy can create instability in the mid east so that all the gov't over there will eb run by islamic extremists. That's exactly what happened with Iran's gov't.

Ppl that are so obsessed with how religion runs the UNited States. Fuck that... we're heathans compared to Iran. Iran is the DEFINITION of religion and gov't fusing together... Over there... ISLAM IS THE GOV'T... so why aren't we bitching about them??? I don't get it when ppl try to stick up for the rights over others... but at the same time, turn a blind eye to what's going on overseas. Fuck it. We're all human. Just because something horrible is happening in another country... shit.. what's more important... Helping millions of other people suffering, or worrying about what other countries think of you? Just for once... imagine the world with no nationality or borders.... ok.. that means all these people suffering over in the mid east are.. (GASP) fellow humans??? They're not iraqis or sudanese ... omg... they'er actually.. my BROTEHRS and SISTERS???? What a fuckin' concept eh'? So FUCK osama, fuck sadam, fuck hitler, fuck kim jong il.....fuck anyone that wants to do harm to my fellow brothers and sisters.

Other than taking a hard stance on asshole countries that get what they deserve... Bush sucks. And no that wasn't sarcasm. Bush is a fucking idiot and that's why I didn't vote for him. He's fucking the economy (i think) and making to many decisions based on right wing christian ideas.

Kerry was a douche that admitted to killing innocent ppl in 'nam, but during the election campagin allowed the media to call him a 'war hero'. WTF. Those two don't mix. When he organized his crew back in the 70's to throw away their purple hearts and medals they got from vietnam... he KEPT his... Fuck Kerry and his botox-saturated face.

Don't blame me... I voted for Nader.

All politicians are scum. The middle class is slowly getting sucked away in this country. When the middle class finally wakes up in a 100 years or so and realize that all the money is in the hands of the rich... they will take up arms and rebel... and I don't think it has anything to do at all with rebelign against the left wingers or the right wingers. They're both in it for their own selfish reasons and I think people will look at each other as fellow citizens and not as republicans or democrats... just two people standing next to each other trying to survive. The forming of political parties was the worst thing that ever happened to this country. Go back to your list of presidents and look at the party that George Washington belonged to... you won't see one. Why? Because he wasn't in a party. In fact, he refused to accept his position as president if the country was going to divide into parties. He was a wise one. The greatest president we ever had.

Not too long ago, someone slipped a tape recorder into a closed meeting that the democrats of the cali legislature had... catching them on tape saying "we need to tax them (the CA citizens) until it hurts." I'm suprised no one really knew about this. I blame the left-wing media. Yes I believe in the "left wing media" myth. We have fox news which is pretty right-sided. Which is funny. Because the left wing media trys to play off like it isn't left... but they bitch and whine about fox news... which totally gives it away.

But anywho... I'm sure the repubs are up to similarly evil plans. Don't get me wrong here. I hate both sides equally. But that's just petty bickering. I don't think its the differences between the left and the right that will bring this country down. I think it's greed. And greed is indescriminate. It affects both left and righties. The righties pass laws reducing taxes so the rich people pay less in personal taxes and the lefties want everything government run so they can have more jobs and keep themselves in office by making the people of this country increase their need on the gov't.

The californians getting fed up with gray davis and hauling his ass out mid-term is just the tip of the iceburg.

People are getting more and more fed up with the gov't these days... and what do you know.,.. assault rifles such as the m16 and AK47 are now legal.. wow... what a coincidence... we all know why the 2nd amendment was added to the constitution, right? Well... if you don't.... i'll give you a hint... the forefather's didnt give us this amendment for huntin'!

Edited by BrAiN (04/17/05 10:33 AM)

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4066504 - 04/17/05 08:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
I don't think that ANYONE here supported Bush, they just hated Kerry. Of course, you are too much of a bleeding heart (anus?) liberal to understand that. Myopic of the Day award goes to, KingOfTheAnalBleed.




Thats a very disrespectful remark... Maybe you should try reinforcing your argument instead of pounding out vitriol.

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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #4066705 - 04/17/05 09:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That totally explains my position. He is so myopic that he only sees in a "people who are for me versus people who are against me" kind of way. He thinks that being against Kerry meant you fully supported Bush in every action. i'd rather rub my balls on a chese grater than talk to people of his intellect


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4066711 - 04/17/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

yeah because thats really my pov and im really just a liberal...believe me a differ from liberals on a few points too..i just see bush and the religous right as disgusting snakes who are ruining this country...see you at the gathering sweetie

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OfflineBrAiN
Art Fag
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4066820 - 04/17/05 10:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

hah king.. i dig that army jpg in your sig :wink:

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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4066822 - 04/17/05 10:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yup, see ya there.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Offlinemagicpurplecow
Lapsed Addict

Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 285
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: SoopaX]
    #4606275 - 08/31/05 10:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. I just didn't understand why it should be so hard for you to convince these people who have been so persecuted. I am becoming discouraged.


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If you see a purple cow, you're having a level four trip. If you become one, well, that's a level five.

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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4606683 - 08/31/05 11:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'll admit all of that. I don't think anyone here lauds Bush's presidency as an example of a "good president". However, the attacks that come at him are sometimes logically incorrect. I dislike him politically but hes done a few things I agree with. I still think that Kerry would have been a much worse decision.


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"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4606702 - 08/31/05 11:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Bush or Kerry, Kerry or Bush...
Turd Sandwich of Giant Douche, Giant Douche or Turd Sandwich.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 8 days
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4606711 - 08/31/05 11:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Coincidentally, that episode was on television this evening.

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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4606715 - 08/31/05 11:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Agreed. The Turd Sandwich let the Assault Weapons Ban expire, though.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4606722 - 08/31/05 11:42 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The Shroomery or Comedy Central, Comedy Central or The Shroomery...
I think I'll be signing off for the night.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 8 days
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4606731 - 08/31/05 11:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

G'night, hippo.

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4606888 - 09/01/05 12:54 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

On domestic policy I think Bush is lacking. In terms of the Global War on Terror I think he is a great President. I think that history will look kindly on him.


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Tastes just like chicken

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OfflineSycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4606892 - 09/01/05 12:56 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
On domestic policy I think Bush is lacking. In terms of the Global War on Terror I think he is a great President. I think that history will look kindly on him.




The facts will show that bush used our high emotions from 911 to push his illegal war on iraq. History will NOT be kind to him.


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Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: are the conservatives ready yet?? [Re: Sycronica]
    #4606907 - 09/01/05 01:06 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

It was not illegal. For the United States to go to war, we need Congressional approval. Read up on that. Every war we have ever had has been approved by Congress. Both the House and the Senate voted to authorize this war. John Kerry voted for this war, and John Edwards sponsored the legislation in the Senate. The House voted to go to war, the Senate voted to go to war, the President wanted to go to war, and the American people overwhelmingly wanted to go to war. Besides that, I see your fucking point.

If you can't grasp that, you are hopeless.

I guess if you say it over and over again you eventually think it is real.

koo koo cha choo

I am the fucking walrus


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Tastes just like chicken

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