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OfflinePsiloman
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Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants
    #4051548 - 04/13/05 07:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I was wondering: Are all Salvias in the market originate from a couple of plants Wasson brought back? If yes:

1) How these clones still go around and we dont see any genetic deterioration (and when i say deterioration i mean very low viability)?
2)Couldnt people just go where wasson went and grab some more from the wild? All the Salvias in the wild simply CANT BE clones....I wonder why not many people thought of that


How about salvia setting seed? HAve any people experimented with spraying them gibberilins at different concentrations to induce flowering? Even if some seed go around we might have more alleles in the gene pool of S.D. which would be so nice....


Somehow i think this plant sets seeds but people who know how dont speak about it...


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OfflineOpenminded
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Psiloman]
    #4051696 - 04/13/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"All the Salvias in the wild simply CANT BE clones....I wonder why not many people thought of that"

Oh yes they can. At some stage there could have been genetically distinct plants from seed in the wild. Then people realise how powerful it is, and how easy it is to cultivate from cuttings. So someone gets a plant, and makes a load of cuttings from it and grows them. And then if someone else wants a plant, they ask this guy for one, and he makes them a cutting, and so on, until everyone is cultivating plants from the same original plant (because hey, it's easier to get a plant from your pal down the road than it is to trek into the jungle and find one for yourself, right?). The result is that one plant gets propagated many many times more than all the others. And then something could start killing off plants in the wild, while people protect the plants that they are cultivating, and hey presto - all plants are genetically identical cultivars. And since they have been produced asexually for so long, they could lose their ability to make good seed through genetic deterioration perhaps, because they no longer need to make seed to survive and so there is no mechanism to protect seed production. Then some inevitably escape cultivation back into the wild. So it could easily happen that all wild plants are clones. I'm not saying that they ARE all clones, but it could easily happen.

(And I'm not saying that that is exactly how it happened! It was just an illustration to show that it could happen!)

And many people do get their plants to flower regularly in the right climate without special treatment. And they do deliberately pollinate them. But still, they either don't make seed or they make seed of very low viability. However, there have been many seed-grown plants, which I hope will eventually make their way into the market.

Here's a photo of some of Daniel Siebert's seed-grown salvias:







"Somehow i think this plant sets seeds but people who know how dont speak about it..."

If I had a way to reliably get it to make seed then I wouldn't tell people how to do it, but I'd tell the whole fucking world that I knew how - because then I could make ???? from selling the very rare salvia seeds!!


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OfflineOpenminded
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Openminded]
    #4051713 - 04/13/05 07:51 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

And maybe, just maybe, the seed-grown plants will be easier to get to make seed! Seeds and different seed-grown plants will no doubt be very expensive at first, but prices will soon drop when people start propagating and selling these new strains themselves. And then it will open up the possibility of artificial selection. Imagine breeding a salvia plant that is ALREADY 10x the strength of today's salvias, even without extraction!!


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Openminded]
    #4051739 - 04/13/05 07:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Openminded said:
And maybe, just maybe, the seed-grown plants will be easier to get to make seed! Seeds and different seed-grown plants will no doubt be very expensive at first, but prices will soon drop when people start propagating and selling these new strains themselves. And then it will open up the possibility of artificial selection. Imagine breeding a salvia plant that is ALREADY 10x the strength of today's salvias, even without extraction!!




Exactly my thoughts!!!! Thats why i would preffer a plant that came directly from seed,i would love to have that extra propability or receiving seed.

On an extra note : A friend of mine has a brother that,contrary to my advice ,bought "salvia divinorum seeds" at an ebay auction.Now, i dont believe they are salvia divinorum seeds but since he bought them and has nothing to do with them (since he claims he bought it just for laughs) i will plant them for him and see what comes out...Propably something else,but hey he will just let me have a go at some dubious seeds so im not gonna miss that chance!

Also if the plant grew in the wild maybe the original person cloning it ,and some others he told it to received clones from different plants so we have genetic variability but dont know it yet!!!


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OfflineOpenminded
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Psiloman]
    #4051751 - 04/13/05 08:09 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Lol, I wonder what will grow from those seeds! Could be interesting to find out :wink:.
Well, weren't there two or three clones brought back by different people? They could indeed be genetically different, but I guess we might never know without DNA studies :sad:.
I think our most likely source for genetic diversity could be the sagewisdom.org shop. They have no live plants available at the moment, but given the rate at which salvia grows, it shouldn't be too long before they offer cuttings again. And it says check back in January 2006 for the possibility of seeds! But they didn't manage to get any seeds last season.


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OfflineLiveByFreedom
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Openminded]
    #4051760 - 04/13/05 08:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I bet more people than Gordon Wasson have brought back salvia from the Mazatec mountains (that's salvia divinorums indigenous region correct?).


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OfflineOpenminded
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: LiveByFreedom]
    #4051791 - 04/13/05 08:22 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I've just been reading a bit of sagewisdom.org and there are, in Daniel Siebert's collection, eight varieties grown from seed and seven collected from the wild. Although these wild-collected plants could, possibly be genetically identical. Then there are also the Luna and Appaloosa strains which appear to be mutations of the Wasson clone. And it seems that seeds have been produced quite a few times, more than I thought, but most of the seeds either haven't germinated, or the seedlings have died. This makes me think that yes, perhaps there are distinct forms in the wild. I didn't think seed production was that common!


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Openminded]
    #4051853 - 04/13/05 08:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Now thats good...within some minutes someone's "mental database" gets updated.Thanks for all the info..

By the way :It would be funny if those seeds are really SD (alhough unlikely).Then i could give cuttings from them and seeds for free...Sorry for messing up the "lotsa money from seeds" but in my personal interest is for the plant to survive,we can make money other way :laugh:


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Offlinepod3
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- [Re: Psiloman]
    #4115173 - 04/30/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

-


Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 01:21 PM)


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OfflineChemical_Bliss
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: pod3]
    #4116145 - 04/30/05 09:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The Hofmann/ Gordon amd the Blosser, are far from the only strains around (well not too far I guess.) Some less comonly known ones are...

Luna....
"A descendant of a Salvia divinorum plant growing under a Hofmann & Wasson clone, found by Daniel Seibert in Hawaii in 1994. this is possibly a seedling or a sport (mutation). It has a slightly different leaf form (more rounded and the edges more serrated) than the other clones listed here."

Cerro Quemado...
" A descendant of a Salvia divinorum plant collected by L.J. Valdes,III, (the first person to isolate Salvinorin A, the active chemical in Salvia divinorum) near the village of Cerro Quemado, Mexico in the 1990s. Two good links: Valdes, 1987http://www.sagewisdom.org/valdes87.html, and Valdes, 1983.http://www.sagewisdom.org/valdes83.html "

Julieta....
"A strain collected by Daniel Siebert from a Mazatec shaman in Huautla de Jimenez (in the Sierra Mazateca, Mexico) in 1999."

La Fuerza....
" A strain collected by Kathleen Harrison January, 2001."

Owens....
"A strain collected by Jack Owens on Cerro Rabon (in the Sierra Mazateca, Mexico) in June, 2003. Jack Owens was a major supplier of dried Salvia divinorum leaves to the US from Mexico. He died at the beginning of September, 2004 and this strain is named in his honor. "

Paradox...
"A cutting from a seed-grown strain raised by Daniel Siebert in 1994. Salvia divinorum from seed is almost impossible to find and should be valuable genetically."

Dont ask me about any of these I copied this from a site a couple months back because I found it interesting and told myself to keep an eye out for the Paradox strain. I wish I could remeber what site.

And on the subject of seeds? There used to be a vendor that carried these for like a week....50 dollars for 3 of them. I bought them and managed to get one to sprout which looked indentical to the sprouting S.D. on sagewisdom. Sadly I gave it too much sun one day and needless to say (its a touchy subject).... Anyway sagewisdom has them once in a very blue moon, but from what I hear it was nothing but pure luck that I got a viable one, I`ve still not forgiven myself :frown:.

I hope someone finds this info valuable.


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OfflineChemical_Bliss
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4116150 - 04/30/05 09:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Pod, PM me maybe we can work something out....


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'divine moments of truth, total and utter cosmic stuff...'
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Offlineytse
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4189950 - 05/18/05 06:28 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Chemical_Bliss I located the page you were writing about!

Although your post was promising a more interesting page, is still has some interest!

The page is http://www.greenstranger.com/salviapage_revised.html

? with a wish to expand the biodiversity of the salvia plant!


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: ytse]
    #4190045 - 05/18/05 08:17 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

By the way ytse,an outstanding page on salvia botany!

http://www.sabia.com/salvia/

I dont think you have seen such a full on report on salvia botany before,have you?


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Offlineytse
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Psiloman]
    #4190346 - 05/18/05 11:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks! It s a great site.
Although I had seen it, it missed my archiving


--------------------
For unrestricted use, the West has permitted alcohol and tobacco;
all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


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OfflineChemical_Bliss
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: ytse]
    #4190994 - 05/18/05 03:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Damn I thought I hit jackpot with that one :smile:


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Offlineytse
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4374939 - 07/06/05 09:12 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

About the various clones?

A relevant and very interesting page from a very good source!

http://www.sagewisdom.org/clones.html


--------------------
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all other chemical Doors in the Wall are labeled Dope,
and their unauthorized takers are Fiends.

Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: ytse] * 1
    #4374970 - 07/06/05 09:34 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting.

I emailed Daniel Siebert (Ytse knows this already) and proposed to him a series of experimentation to make Salvia viable again,so it will set seeds more frequently.

So,what is the problem with Salvia rarely setting seeds and even more rarely setting viable seed? Simply when salvia cell's undergo meiotic division to form pollen or ovules ,the chromosomes fail to be correctly put in the equatorial line in the middle of the cell.Furthermore problems could arise even in mitotic divisions before the meiotic ones when cells fail to pair up their chromosomes correctly.It is hypothesized that this is because salvia divinorum is actually a hybrid between two plants!

Now,what i proposed to Daniel was to turn them polyploid by a simple method.The apical meristem of some plants could be defoliated of its leaf primordia to expose the apical meristem.Apical meristems are known for vertical growth ofthe plant hence mitotic divisions are prevalent.If one uses a mitotic poison to inhibit formation of microtubules,the divinding cells will have double the number of chromosomes they started with.What we are interested though is to affect the cell layer that produces germ cells.3 layers are observed at a vertical dissection of apical meristems.L1,L2,L3.L1 makes epidermis and leaves,L2 is the germ cell primordia ,L3 makes root tissue.The mitotic poisons thus need to reach L2 so reading some protocols i devised a method applicable to SD,utilising DMSO as the carrier of the inhibitor and a waterbath to speed things up.So,what if it gets polyploid? Simply put doubling the chromosomes will create homologous chromosomes for pairing up so mitosis and meiosis will go more smooth.Resulting plantets would be tetraploid,but one could revert it back to diploid by pollen cultivation on agar (Mature germ cells have half the chromosome number).So wouldnt the diploid plant result in meiosis/mitosis problems again?Hopefully not,chromosomes would be arranged in patterns that would restore homology and thus viability.

Let alone that in the tetraploid state crosses between different clones would be possible,an excelent thing that Daniel wants.There are more ways to increase biodiversity but i leave them for now ,i dont want anyone trying anything funky in his kitchen.

Daniel received my method,asked to mail him the protocols,i did and then he went silent not answering my emails. A rather eccentric fellow if i may say,but i trust he know what he is doing.


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OfflineDivinorumDevotee
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Psiloman]
    #8090757 - 03/01/08 07:30 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psiloman said:

Somehow i think this plant sets seeds but people who know how dont speak about it...




That was true when you posted that. But look here: http://members.cox.net/sageseeds/

And check out the rest of my tutorials please: http://sageseeds.info/tutorials/


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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: DivinorumDevotee]
    #8091682 - 03/01/08 11:30 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DivinorumDevotee said:
Quote:

Psiloman said:

Somehow i think this plant sets seeds but people who know how dont speak about it...




That was true when you posted that. But look here: http://members.cox.net/sageseeds/

And check out the rest of my tutorials please: http://sageseeds.info/tutorials/



uhmm could you leave dead threads alone? its kinda an unspoken rule, plus youve already brought up several other threads about this, so theres reall no need to dig up old threads...


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InvisibleApacheShaman
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Re: Salvia Seeds +Fresh (not clones) Salvia plants [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #8091717 - 03/01/08 11:42 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zinglons Acolyte said:
Quote:

DivinorumDevotee said:
Quote:

Psiloman said:

Somehow i think this plant sets seeds but people who know how dont speak about it...




That was true when you posted that. But look here: http://members.cox.net/sageseeds/

And check out the rest of my tutorials please: http://sageseeds.info/tutorials/



uhmm could you leave dead threads alone? its kinda an unspoken rule, plus youve already brought up several other threads about this, so theres reall no need to dig up old threads...




ummm. could you shut the hell up? he has contributed more to this community than you have by far. you have no place to tell him that.


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