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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4049912 - 04/13/05 01:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

exclusive58 said:
All the blacks get together and live in the same neighborhood, all the whites move to the suburbs, etc... I don't think this shows that these different "races" are comfortable with each other! They're actually avoiding each other it seems.

Doesn't this point towards the fact that racism is still alive and kicking in the US?




There is uneasiness in being around people who are "not your kind". When I say "not your kind", I don't mean just race, I also mean people who live different lifestyles than you (different beliefs or cultural backgrounds for example).

The main reason that white people move to the suburbs and away from black people is because in America, black people are much more likely to commit crimes than white people. This means that black neighborhoods are much more likely to have high crime rates. A lot of white people don't want to live in an environment like that, so they move.




Let me get back to this:
You know how, in general, crime rates have decreased by something like 2% over the last ten years (in the US), yet media coverage of crimes has increased of something like 200%?

So wouldn't you agree that the media plays a big role in the feeling of "uneasiness" that white people feel towards black people?

And shouldn't everyone have aproximately the same cultural backround, since everyone lives in the same country? I mean were talking about the american culture right? There does exist such a thing, since foreigners are so scared of it because its invading all the other cultures and replacing them. Shouldn't this be a unification factor? But from what i can tell there are many more factors of differenciation than of unification.


See, i used to live in an all-white neighborhood in the US, except this one house where there was a black family. One night, when i was driving back home with another friend, i ended driving behind the black guy's car, and i assume he got scared of seeing two cars behind him at night since he pulled over and waited for us to pass. A few weeks later the family moved away.

So it seems that even black people are scared of white people. I think this guy felt that he wasn't welcome and that's what made him leave.

So you're right, what we're really talking about is some kind of general "uneasiness". Sometimes this feeling can get perverted and turn into obvious racism though. And sometimes its a feeling that one tries not to show.

I think these are the leftovers you get from having such a history of racism.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4049918 - 04/13/05 01:06 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I specifically highlighted one aspect of Hitler to be praised, and it didn't have anything to do with race.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049947 - 04/13/05 01:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan Seeker said:
And since the official definition of Racism is "race-based prejudice" it means that we both agree on the same thing, only I say racism and you say "rampant prejudice towards their race".




Look at my definitions of "racism" and "prejudice".

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
In my opinion, a lot of their problems are self-inflicted.

Wiccan Seeker said:
Now we are getting somewhere, I hope. Yes. A lot of these problems are brought about by their own community but the cause of this lies not in their RACE but in external factors, being enviroment, culture etc.




To be honest, I don't know why these problems and disparities exist. Nobody does. Sociologists make studies on such things and it is such a vast and complicated problem that an answer might never be found.

I guess you and I have a different viewpoint when it comes to a very basic premise:

I think it is acceptable and natural for people to gather together in groups (whether they be religious, racial, cultural, ideological, etc..). I think it is natural for groups to be somewhat wary and distrustful of other groups. I view this whole process as natural and inevitable, while people of your mindset seem to attempt to stifle any differences or thoughts of differences.


Edited by RandalFlagg (04/13/05 01:14 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049963 - 04/13/05 01:17 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Your bullshit never ceases to amaze me.  I have not seen anyone here attribute differences among racial groups to race itself.  Rather, they have merely pointed out that these differences exist.  Being a sociology major, I have done extensive reading into theories as to why they exist, yet no one has called any of these texts racist.  It is YOU who have shown consistent bigotry towards Americans, and display a seemingly deliberate ignorance of the facts.

Quote:

But it IS racism, you can't bend that out of proportion but I'm sure you will try.



:rotfl:  You're the last person that should be talking about others "bending things out of proportion."


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4049967 - 04/13/05 01:18 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
.
I view racism as a deep hatred, revulsion, or steretyping of a certain race.

I view prejudice as a natural wariness that anybody gets when interacting with people that are unlike themselves. My definition might not match the dictionary's definition, but it is how I view things.




Look, then we're having a battle of definitions, where I adhere to the textbook definition and you stray from that.

Still, we can debate before we get to the kissing & cuddling part :wink:

I believe, and much that I have read reflects that, that most of that wariness is brought about by CULTURE, not NATURE.

If you stumble upon a native tribesman who never saw a white man before he will approach you to investigate if you in fact are human. Once he decides you are not some monkey from a tree he will do a risk assessment. If you appear friendly enough to give him a sense of security the wariness is over.

Now we in the 21th century know that people of another race are humans just like us. So if you are not a racist, "species" is "same". Then there is the matter of risk assessment.

Risk asessment is an individual matter. But western culture subconsciously teaches that race is a risk factor. If you look at color you see statistics differences. If you look at degree of wealth you see a difference of risk too. The poor man gets into your wallet with a crowbar and the rich man with a tax law :smirk:

Once you start avoiding/shunning/blaming/fearing/hating a RACE of people, meaning that anyone of that color you meet is at a disadvantage compared to people you meet of another color then that is a RACIST thing. It doesnt mean that you are a deliberate racist however. And my stance is that our western culture instils a state of unconscious racism (which you might call prejudice) in everyone living there by default.

A racist can be some idiot running around with a rope but it can also be somebody who gets a slight cringe of fear whenever he sees a black man. (or Arab, or whoever) Racism isn't a matter of GUILT, it is a matter of BEHAVIOR and THOUGHT.

If you are a bit more wary of Arabs than of white man if you are flying on an airplane then that is a RACIST FEAR. You in fact are the victim of the RACISM the media put into you, and the Arab is uncomfortable with your visible unrest too.

It does not matter one bit whether Osama or George orchestrated 9/11, but your exposure to american society has caused you to experience racist fear when you are on a plane and three Arabs with beards are talking a bit in Arabic.

Racial prejudice is racism. The word racism shouldn't be such a taboo that it is avoided even if it applies.

If you are mortally afraid when you're in an elevator and three young black men walk in, more so than with three white young men, then you are the victim of your own RACIST fear. You are the racist, but you are the victim of it. If you take racist ACTION you are a racist too, but then you victimize others by racist action.
In both cases the racism/racial prejudice makes people feel bad.

Definitions, Randalflagg.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: looner2]
    #4049984 - 04/13/05 01:24 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I specifically highlighted one aspect of Hitler to be praised, and it didn't have anything to do with race.




Now that is true and it was immediately appearant it was not the racism looner2 praised. Respect for somebody's well-trimmed moustache does not make you ar racist, even though it feels a bit awkward to many to praise Hitler on anything.

Let's not get overly sensitive :rotfl:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049994 - 04/13/05 01:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Wiccan_Seeker writes:

Quote:

If you are mortally afraid when you're in an elevator and three young black men walk in, more so than with three white young men, then you are the victim of your own RACIST fear.




That doesn't make you a racist in many parts of the US, that makes you a realist. Anyone who doesn't put their guard up when a trio of black youths dressed like gangbangers come pimp-strutting into a closed space with them is a fool.

And before you get on my case about this, let me assure you that I have had this exact same sentiment expressed to me in even more harsh terms by just about every black person I know who lives in urban America.



Phred


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: exclusive58]
    #4049997 - 04/13/05 01:27 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
You know how, in general, crime rates have decreased by something like 2% over the last ten years (in the US), yet media coverage of crimes has increased of something like 200%?

So wouldn't you agree that the media plays a big role in the feeling of "uneasiness" that white people feel towards black people?




It is possible. However, my firsthand experiences of how things are in a lot of black communities was not shaped by the media. It was shaped by my viewing of factual statistics, talking to black people, and driving through black neighborhoods where bars were all over the windows and somebody got shot there the night before.

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
And shouldn't everyone have aproximately the same cultural backround, since everyone lives in the same country?

Shouldn't this be a unification factor?




Not all American culture is the same. There are many branches of it. Differences do seperate people and cause wariness and distrust. There are differences in how certain people live, think, and exist in America.

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
So you're right, what we're really talking about is some kind of general "uneasiness". Sometimes this feeling can get perverted and turn into obvious racism though. And sometimes its a feeling that one tries not to show.




I see where you are coming from and I agree. However, I view differences and prejudices as natural and inevitable. Have you ever watched or read "A Clockwork Orange"? The message that Anthony Burgess was trying to get across was as follows:

There are certain inherent impulses in Man. Some of them are destructive. We can attempt to control or punish these impulses with force and coercion. But, is the force and coercion worse than the bad impulses? If you impose that kind of control upon a person, does it stifle their humanity? Do they become a "Clockwork Orange" (a mechanical and controlled living thing)?

These are interesting questions that are very profound.


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4050001 - 04/13/05 01:28 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

well said  :thumbup:


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4050008 - 04/13/05 01:29 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Now that is true and it was immediately appearant it was not the racism looner2 praised. Respect for somebody's well-trimmed moustache does not make you ar racist, even though it feels a bit awkward to many to praise Hitler on anything.

Let's not get overly sensitive


Although its in very poor english and hard to read, I think you are trying to say something without even knowing the context in which it was said. Dig up my quote and then make a comment, otherwise, just stick to making nonsensical points so the rest of the board can continue to laugh at you.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4050013 - 04/13/05 01:31 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

people of your mindset seem to attempt to stifle any differences or thoughts of differences.




"seem to" = key.
You've got me confused with somebody else. I am not denying that statistic or any other difference. But if race is assumed to be the reason for the difference then that is RACISM.

Racism is a WORD, people. We are talking about racism in America.

I am saying that in America there is much prejudice regarding race and that this causes many problems. Does anyone disagree with that?


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: exclusive58]
    #4050020 - 04/13/05 01:32 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
And shouldn't everyone have aproximately the same cultural backround, since everyone lives in the same country? I mean were talking about the american culture right?




The funny thing about "American culture" is that their are many different cultures living in America.

As stated before each "race" tends to live in their own "neighborhood" so there is not much mixing of cultures in America. Their is more of a "live and let live" attitude in America that isnt found in most other countries. We dont have "race wars" or "genocide killings" here in America that is seen in many European and African countries.


Quote:

There does exist such a thing, since foreigners are so scared of it because its invading all the other cultures and replacing them.




I think what your referring to is "Americanism". Which is mainly our movies and capitalistic attitudes that are being seen in many European countries. Is that a "culture" ??? I dont know.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: looner2]
    #4050036 - 04/13/05 01:36 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The context was your remark in the thread "am I a fascist?" by Randalflagg. I know you were not talking about what's under hitler's nose, but i guess that anything beyond a literal description is beyond you, since you despite being a native english speaker have trouble understanding me.

Quote:

just stick to making nonsensical points so the rest of the board can continue to laugh at you.




It is nonsensical only because you can't make sense of it.
Luckily the world does not revolve around your ability to make sense of things.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4050211 - 04/13/05 02:18 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
rac?ism
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.





The main definition of racism is that a particular race is superior to others.

Most Americans believe in this definition of "racism". That is if you believe that "your race" is better than all other races.....your a "racist". The KKK falls into this category of "racist"


Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
If you are mortally afraid when you're in an elevator and three young black men walk in, more so than with three white young men, then you are the victim of your own RACIST fear. You are the racist, but you are the victim of it. If you take racist ACTION you are a racist too, but then you victimize others by racist action.





That statement is only partially true.

If the 3 black men were dressed in business suits, most people would not be afraid.

If the 3 black men were dressed in gangster clothing, most people (including blacks) will be afraid.

How can a black person be racist against his own race?


Their fear came not from the fact that they are black....but in how they were dressed. The same fear would come if it were ANY race (mexican, asian, black or white) dressed in gangster clothing.

Being afraid of the 3 black gangsters is NOT racist.

It is prejudice.
_


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4050279 - 04/13/05 02:35 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
If you are mortally afraid when you're in an elevator and three young black men walk in, more so than with three white young men, then you are the victim of your own RACIST fear. You are the racist, but you are the victim of it. If you take racist ACTION you are a racist too, but then you victimize others by racist action.
In both cases the racism/racial prejudice makes people feel bad.




This caught my eye, because I remember discussing this exact scenario with a black roommate I had my sophomore year. I remember him saying that he can smell the fear off the white people when he walks into an elevator with them. But later on, he also said that he feels uncomfortable when he's in an elevator with a group of very straight looking white people. I don't really remember what else was said, so I'll leave it like that.

I know I've lived through this elevator example hundreds of times. I'm not the kind of person who goes stiff, because it just doesn't make much sense to me, regardless of race. If I'm gonna get mugged in that elevator, I'm gonna get mugged. Getting scared just makes the situation even more risky. I'll be pissed, but I won't be scared because some asshole wants the $20 in my pocket. I've never met a black person in my life who would kill someone during a mugging. And I've known fucked up black people.

I've had the misfortune of being mugged 3 times - once in the Queens, once in Philly, and one really weird incident in Buffalo. Yes, all three times by black guys. All three times on the street (er, the Buffalo one started on the street). All three times, just out of bad luck and not knowing my surroundings. One of my friends, who I'd classify as a borderline racist, let the Buffalo thing take his prejudice to new heights (he now no longer goes to McDonalds because he feels, based on their ad campaigns, that they don't want his white patronage). I don't blame him for feeling the way he does. But I can't bring myself to go down the same road. I've probably had tens of thousands of encounters with black people. I'm not gonna let three incidents radically change how I feel about the race. It would be a pain in my ass and it would also be a disservice to a black person who happens to be in the same elevator as me. Groups of people aren't gonna have room to improve themselves if I'm gonna lay down judgment within 3 seconds.

Now, Wiccan, I'm not saying I agree with you on this. In fact, I disagree with the vast majority of what you've said in this thread... I don't think having a knee-jerk fear reaction to black youth qualifies someone as a flat out racist. It probably makes them a little jumpy and prejudiced (or just a geezer who's never lived in America). I think it's what someone does with that fear and prejudice that makes them a racist.


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Edited by Gijith (04/13/05 05:35 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Gijith]
    #4050364 - 04/13/05 02:53 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Now, Wiccan, I'm not saying I agree with you on this. In fact, I disagree with the vast majority of what you've said in this thread... I don't think having a knee-jerk fear reaction to black youth qualifies someone as a flat out racist. It probably makes them a a little jumpy and prejudiced (or just a geezer who's never lived in America). I think it's what someone does with that fear and prejudice that makes them a racist.





:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Gijith]
    #4053463 - 04/14/05 06:16 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:

I've had the misfortune of being mugged 3 times - once in the Queens, once in Philly, and one really weird incident in Buffalo. Yes, all three times by black guys. All three times on the street (er, the Buffalo one started on the street). All three times, just out of bad luck and not knowing my surroundings. One of my friends, who I'd classify as a borderline racist, let the Buffalo thing take his prejudice to new heights (he now no longer goes to McDonalds because he feels, based on their ad campaigns, that they don't want his white patronage). I don't blame him for feeling the way he does. But I can't bring myself to go down the same road. I've probably had tens of thousands of encounters with black people. I'm not gonna let three incidents radically change how I feel about the race. It would be a pain in my ass and it would also be a disservice to a black person who happens to be in the same elevator as me. Groups of people aren't gonna have room to improve themselves if I'm gonna lay down judgment within 3 seconds.

Now, Wiccan, I'm not saying I agree with you on this. In fact, I disagree with the vast majority of what you've said in this thread... I don't think having a knee-jerk fear reaction to black youth qualifies someone as a flat out racist. It probably makes them a little jumpy and prejudiced (or just a geezer who's never lived in America). I think it's what someone does with that fear and prejudice that makes them a racist.




I think that's a nice summary of what the real problem today is: how do people psychologically deal with the feeling of fear they may have towards a person that is potentially dangerous?

Well, you can either deal with fear, and realize that its a useless emotion that can only make things worse for you (like Gijith said he did), or you can let yourself be driven by your emotions, and in the name of safety, try to prevent any future muggling by mentally pre-tagging the potential criminals that may be out to "get you" with the sticker "danger, avoid avoid, that way you know when to get on the other sidewalk so you can avoid the danger. I guess that's a natural way for the ego to preserve itself or something.

In that last outcome, classifying the dangerosity of someone by skin color is where the prejudice comes from, and it can sometimes turn into blatant racism.

I've been muggled three times as well. All three times by black people, except one when there were also whites and arabs. I've been aggressed and punched three time face in the metro by three big black guys and stolen 80euros and my cellphone. From this experience, i don't hate the black guys for what they did, but most of all i have a disgust for masses, because there were plenty of people in the metro wagon, but no one said a thing as i got beaten up. No one even looked.

damn, i don't know what i'm trying to say ( :stoned:) but i think that now the problem could better be discussed in the S&P forum, because its not a problem that politics can do much about, they can easily aggravate it by telling you how to think, but they can't fix it. That's something each of us has to do on our own.

We've all got psychological problems to deal with anyway. Its sad that so many people give up so early though.


Quote:

I remember him saying that he can smell the fear off the white people when he walks into an elevator with them.




ya fearful people are pretty obvious. And i think that when one sees that another person is getting scared just because of one's skin color, then one is more inclined to beat the hell out of that person just becuase it can piss one off to see such foolness.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: exclusive58]
    #4054260 - 04/14/05 12:48 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Well, you can either deal with fear, and realize that its a useless emotion that can only make things worse for you (like Gijith said he did), or you can let yourself be driven by your emotions, and in the name of safety, try to prevent any future muggling by mentally pre-tagging the potential criminals that may be out to "get you" with the sticker "danger, avoid avoid, that way you know when to get on the other sidewalk so you can avoid the danger. I guess that's a natural way for the ego to preserve itself or something.



More like a natural way for the body to preserve itself. I was once out riding my bike when a bunch of young Mexican hoodlums started riding up near me. Being the naive young liberal that I was at the time, I didn't want to be "racist" in assuming that they meant to harm me, so I kept on riding. They then surrounded me and jumped me for my bike. Sometimes you get that gut feeling for a reason, ya know.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Silversoul]
    #4054283 - 04/14/05 12:54 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

>Being the naive young liberal that I was at the time..

haha, that seemed kinda funny for a sec. At what age did you officially declare yourself a liberal?  :smirk:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: exclusive58]
    #4054290 - 04/14/05 12:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I grew up liberal, raised by liberal parents. It wasn't until the past year or so that I got a woke up to libertarianism.


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