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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
in a pinch
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Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
Re: Racism in the US [Re: Catalysis]
    #4047848 - 04/13/05 06:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


You have to accept the fact that blacks are proportionately commiting more crimes than other races. Try living in an urban black area and tell me that the number of black convictions is due to a racist court system. There are problems, but its not the courts.





lol.  I have and currently DO live in an urban area that contains a high percentage of blacks (there are more latinos here actually--Perhaps you've heard of it...Los Angeles).  Needless to say I'll pass a white face walking to the liquor store maybe 1 out a 100 times.


My point is:

It is my guess along with a very large amount of other people too who believe (its impossible say for sure either way, even with a mountain of stats) if a black man and a white man were committed for the same crime with the same background and the same damn lawyer there is a percentage of liklihood that the black man would get a worse sentence.  Not necessarily so, but I personally believe that it is a fact as well as many many black people do too.  Its not an aryan conspiracy, just human fallacy.  It IS due to the fact so many black people commit crimes but judges are supposed to be above such generalizations.  We need a more diverse judiciary (not through some quota garbage either, its just disproportionate to population...I don't have asnwers, I just bitch. :crazy:)


Sure, a certain % of Blacks overstate the racism in our government just as a % of whites do too.



My whole point in all this is that by claiming that any one race is being the most abused by our government's laws and actions is ridiculous.  I think this whole thread was started under the European  assumption that there are still lychings and segragation in the US probably becasue most Europeans (like Wiccan) have no idea what its like over here beyond their own 2 week vacation to NYC and anti-american generalizations within their culture. 

Fact is, race relations in the US are horrible (as viewed in this thread) and are very slowly getting better.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049061 - 04/13/05 12:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:

Well, Exclusive58, throughout the thread you got the quality of US race debate once more. Whites are discriminated against far more then blacks by both the people and the government, and perhaps racism occurs in some faraway state but i've never seen it here. Of course the KKK is legal:sad:

Many are just as naive to the real issues to racism as if they never spent a straight thought on the matter. And I think that is true.
If you are raised in a racism-based culture you can only later in life develop objectivity, but it is a harsh battle. Many just go with the flow and never start the process.




Ya it feels like this thread stirred shit up, and boy does it smell bad. :poop:

I think that there are still many many problems that America has to resolve concerning the race issue. And no i don't believe that there are still lots of lynchings and physical abuses done in the name of racism, i think that the problem today is first of all a psychological one.

And i agree to some point that america still has an inherent racist-based culture, which is a form of conditionning that is hard to get rid off, because them kids that get raised in such an environment will grow up to have the same mentality and will end up raising their kids in the same environment as well.

The kid who lives in a white neighborhood and who goes to a school where there aren't any black kids, that in itself is a form of conditionning. In such conditions, the diversity of society, which is essential for its right progression,  cannot be put in place. There'll always be those psychological barriers.

But what i'm trying to get across here is much more complicated than it seems, and its not something i'm good at expressing.

I don't blame Americans though, its more a feeling of pity that i have. Because its not really YOUR fault, its more your history's fault and the fault of how your society came to be. How can you blame someone that's been conditioned? its easy to say "well look, you've been conditionned to think like that, but its really not like that", but the fact of the matter is that it's a real challenge go beyond your own limits. And its something I challenge all of you take!


I'll come back here in ten years and ask the same question and see how things have evolved :wink:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: exclusive58]
    #4049077 - 04/13/05 01:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
The kid who lives in a white neighborhood and who goes to a school where there aren't any black kids, that in itself is a form of conditionning. In such conditions, the diversity of society, which is essential for its right progression, cannot be put in place. There'll always be those psychological barriers.




I grew up in that very situation. All white school/neighborhood. I am not nor have I ever been racist.

IME people who are the MOST racist are the ones who grew up in a city with a large diverse community.

My wife grew up in a city with a high percentage of blacks......she is one of the MOST racist/prejudice people I know.

According to your statment...shouldnt I be a racist instead of her?



.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049102 - 04/13/05 01:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you look at the development of this thread you see it becoming increasingly intense until you arrive at a situation where both sides have dug trenches and are throwing stones and the frontline, the debate, moves not an inch. So to take a snapshot:

SIDE 1: America has got a serious problem with racism against minorities. This problem is caused by certain groups cultivating a culture of intolerance to reap benefits thereof.

SIDE 2: America has got no problem with racism against minorities. The minorities are genetically and socially inferior. It is their factual inferiority that is the problem, not racism.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The question raised was about the extent of racism in the US. Since the tread is now dominated by SIDE 2 people I have come to the personal conclusion this very thread shows all too clear the extent of the problem and that is being made into a trench warfare that will lead nowhere. This is yet another issue where America will eat itself with the rest of the world picking up the pieces afterwards.

.


--------------------
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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049294 - 04/13/05 03:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What is most surprising to me is, people who dont live in America are telling Americans "how/why" their is racism in America.

Until your have spent more than a few weeks here.....you have NO IDEA what drives "American racism".

In order to truly understand racism here you will have to live here for a few years. Then you will get a feel for "how/why" their are still racist people in America.

I promise you it isnt as "cut and dry" as you think it is.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: niteowl]
    #4049430 - 04/13/05 04:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I promise you it isnt as "cut and dry" as you think it is.




When you post, you simplify things, or you end up writing 10.000 words and get 10 back in one question about the first thing you said.

Quote:

Until your have spent more than a few weeks here.....you have NO IDEA what drives "American racism".

In order to truly understand racism here you will have to live here for a few years. Then you will get a feel for "how/why" their are still racist people in America.




Yes and no. You can live your whole life in America and have not a fleeting clue about what causes or drives it, just like you can drive your car all your life without knowing the workings of an internal combustion engine, driving around with a huge gasoline-sucking Bermuda Triangle under your hood :grin:

In order to understand racism in ANY country, you have to lay down hundreds of hours studying the phenomenon of racism before you can have an informed opinion. There's a lot of soulsearching involved, and alot of scrutiny of culture and media. You have to dismantle the barriers racist conditioning has put up within yourself.
Can't do it in a year.

Once you know it's mechanisms you can readily identify it where ever it shows itself. You recognise the archetypes. The logic systems involved. And if you are familiar with a culture you recognise the patterning, because racism is a worldwide phenomenon.

Particularly media are rather powerful instruments of conditioning. A friend, vacationing in China, discovered an ingrained strong dislike of black people. These people have never seen or interacted with a single black person. They do watch Hollywood movies that feature them though. And they reproduced exactly the same stereotypes based on underlying racist archetypes that permeate western cultures.
"Eat Mc Donalds: it's American! Hate black people: it's American!" a very odd message, but it's what comes across.

Quote:

Then you will get a feel for "how/why" their are still racist people in America.



In any western culture you are bred to be a racist, so you are racist by default until you've dismantled the racism instilled into you from kindergarten onward. And that's a long and painful process which 9/10 people find too much hassle to do.

Racism in the US is often very *blatant* and that goes against the grain of many Europeans, where racism is usually more subtle, but present nontheless.

Quote:

you have NO IDEA what drives "American racism".




Perhaps. Can you tell me what drives American racism? If I learn something new that stands, I'll take it with me from this day onward :thumbup:


--------------------
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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4049485 - 04/13/05 05:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)


Wiccan Seeker has gone so far beyond reason and has produced zero backup for its nonsense that I nominate it for trollhood. Do I hear a second?


seconded.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049506 - 04/13/05 05:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

In America their really is not that many racists. They do exist but they are few and far between.

In America you have rampant prejudice which is different than racism

Many people get these two terms confused.

Being a racist means that you believe your race is better than all the other races. Their are not very many people (that I have met) that fall into this category, and I live in southern USA where the KKK thrives.

Being prejudice means that you make a instant judgment about a person. This is rampant not only in America but all over the planet. (E.U. included)

If a person says "get a job you lazy nigger" does that make them a racist?


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049608 - 04/13/05 05:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
SIDE 1: America has got a serious problem with racism against minorities. This problem is caused by certain groups cultivating a culture of intolerance to reap benefits thereof.

SIDE 2: America has got no problem with racism against minorities. The minorities are genetically and socially inferior. It is their factual inferiority that is the problem, not racism.



I swear, it never ceases to amaze me what utter bullshit you keep spewing. Who the fuck is saying minorities are genetically inferior? Sure, some may point out the fact that certain minorities don't perform as well in school, or are statistically more likely to commit crimes, but this is not racism. It is fact. One may speculate and theorize all day about the reason why this is, but it is not racist to state these statistical facts, nor is it racist to point out racism against whites.

Frankly, I'm getting pretty fed up with your arrogance. You don't live here, nor has anyone in this thread(that I've seen so far) made any claims of one race being inherently superior to others. Get over yourself and grow the fuck up. Your prejudice towards Americans is more blatant than any comments in this thread which you construe as "racism." Good day to you, sir!


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049712 - 04/13/05 06:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
If you look at the development of this thread you see it becoming increasingly intense until you arrive at a situation where both sides have dug trenches

SIDE 1: America has got a serious problem with racism against minorities. This problem is caused by certain groups cultivating a culture of intolerance to reap benefits thereof.




Why are you singling out America? Racism, prejudice, and xenophobia exist everywhere. I have listed mutliple examples of nations and ethnicities that dislike each other. What about the Serbs and the Croats? What about the Sunnis and the Shiites? What about the Arabs and the Kurds? There is tension between different ethnic and racial groups all over this world. If Europe is so enlightened, why do I keep hearing of tension between native Europeans and immigrating Muslims?

What groups are cultivating intolerance to reap benefits? What are you talking about? The only group that I can think of that is doing that is the NAACP. They support affirmative action which is legalized racism against white people.

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
SIDE 2: America has got no problem with racism against minorities. The minorities are genetically and socially inferior. It is their factual inferiority that is the problem, not racism.




That is a complete lie. Nobody here has said blacks are genetically or socially inferior. Looner is the only person in the thread who has exhibited racist tendencies. I and several other people merely brought up the fact that American black people statistically commit more crimes than white people, they do more poorly in academic environments than white people, and they exhibit a lot of racism towards white people (which is allowed by society more than white racism towards blacks is allowed). From these statements you might think I hate black people or something. I don't. I have nothing against white people, but I don't like white scumbags (there are a lot of them). I have nothing against black people, but I don't like black scumbags (there are a lot of them).

You don't live in America. You don't know what it is like. You seem to think that every white person is racist and organizing a lynch mob. Come to this country and you will see a super anti-racist media (preachy TV shows and movies that extol the virtues of anti-racism), you will see affirmative action (black people getting jobs and college spots over white people because of their color), and you will see black people openly ridiculing white people.

Yes, racism does exist in America. It is more prevalent in some areas than others. But, it isn't just some white people hating "minorities". I have seen ample instances of black people expressing disdain for white people. I have seen ample instances of oriental people expressing disdain for black people. If all of the various groups in your country get along like some harmonious utopia, then I applaud your country. But, there can be natural suspicions and distrusts between different ethnic groups in America. Mild prejudice is rampant in America in my opinion. Racism is not.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4049721 - 04/13/05 06:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Show me where I exhibited racist tendancies.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049733 - 04/13/05 07:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Niteowl said:
Until your have spent more than a few weeks here.....you have NO IDEA what drives "American racism".

In order to truly understand racism here you will have to live here for a few years. Then you will get a feel for "how/why" their are still racist people in America.

Wiccan_Seeker said:
You can live your whole life in America and have not a fleeting clue about what causes or drives it




I am absolutely floored that people who do not live in this country dare to pontificate on the exact nature of our daily behavior and problems.  How fucking arrogant can you get?  You've been spoonfed distorted lies about America and its culture.

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Racism in the US is often very *blatant* and that goes against the grain of many Europeans, where racism is usually more subtle, but present nontheless.

racism is a worldwide phenomenon.




Thank God you recognize that.  Oh that's right....you secular Europeans don't believe in God....I hope I didn't offend you.  :smirk:  See....it is annoying when people making assumptions about you without any true knowledge. 

Quote:

Wiccan Seeker
In any western culture you are bred to be a racist




That is a very bold and unsubstantiated statement.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: looner2]
    #4049739 - 04/13/05 07:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Show me where I exhibited racist tendancies.




Well, maybe it was when you did a little praising of Hitler. Some people (especially our enlightened European posters) might have been offended by that.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Silversoul]
    #4049759 - 04/13/05 07:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Who the fuck is saying minorities are genetically inferior?




People who say that the cause of these percieved flaws are because of their race. And some people here are saying that.

But if you would say "genetically inferior" it would be racist and that is taboo, isn't it?

Well, let's look up the definition of racism, shall we?

Quote:

rac?ism
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.





So if you say that people are more likely to kill BECAUSE of their race, or whatever inequaltity you want to bestow, laying emphasis on things that discriminate between races and all that happens to coincide with excisting racial prejudice, then you are spewing racism.

This thread is about racism. And there is much racism in this thread.

Quote:

Sure, some may point out the fact that certain minorities don't perform as well in school, or are statistically more likely to commit crimes, but this is not racism.




It *IS* racism if you attribute that to their race. RACE-ism. And if you consistently state that other races perform less well than whites than you are making racial comparisons pointing towards white *supremacy*

Quote:

supreme
adj
1: final or last in your life or progress; "the supreme sacrifice"; "the supreme judgment" 2: greatest in status or authority or power; "a supreme tribunal" [syn: sovereign] 3: highest in excellence or achievement; "supreme among musicians"; "a supreme endeavor"; "supreme courage" 4: greatest or maximal in degree; extreme; "supreme folly"




Play your word games until you are blue in the face for all I care, Paradigm. You act as if things cannot be implied, yet you see things in my posts that aren't even there.

>>If somebody fails/performs less well then that would be inferior to the person that succeeds or performs better.

>>Race is a genetic trait.

>>Attributing comparatively better or worse behavior or character to race is called racism and racism implies genetic inferiority.

It itches if I call it racism, doesn't it? You don't like me to use that word like that. But it IS racism, you can't bend that out of proportion but I'm sure you will try.

Yes. There is blatant racism in this thread.

Good day to you, Paradigm.


--------------------
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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4049792 - 04/13/05 07:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
.
Mild prejudice is rampant in America in my opinion. Racism is not.




You can hide behind a play of words to not say racism but:

Quote:


rac?ism
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.




Prejudice baced on race is racism by definition
So what you are saying, Randalflagg, is that mild racism is rampant in America. Thank you for agreeing with me, even though our words differ we are saying the exact same thing.

Prejudice baced on race = a way to avoid the word RACISM.

Quote:

Why are you singling out America? Racism, prejudice, and xenophobia exist everywhere.




I said that if you read my posts, but this thread is about racism in America and I am debating in this thread. But as you yourself even quoted I did say that its a worldwide problem.
I even mentioned native Chinese.

Quote:

You seem to think that every white person is racist and organizing a lynch mob.




Nope then you get me wrong. I just use the hard words. I don't use the sugarcoating Prejudice when it comes to race, but I say RACISM, cause that's what it IS no matter how you sugarcoat or glaze it.


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049804 - 04/13/05 07:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
People who say that the cause of these percieved flaws are because of their race. And some people here are saying that.




Nobody said that. I don't know why American black people seem to statistically have more social problems than white people. It could be poverty (black people have less wealth than white people). It could be a lot of stuff. Sociologists have been trying to answer some of these questions for years.

Quote:

Wiccan Seeker said:
So if you say that people are more likely to kill BECAUSE of their race, or whatever inequaltity you want to bestow, laying emphasis on things that discriminate between races

This thread is about racism. And there is much racism in this thread.




Oh please. There is nothing wrong with examining fact and bringing it to a person's attention. It is fact that American black people are more likely to commit homicide than American white people. I don't even know how that little fact got brought up in the first place, but it is true nonetheless.

Quote:

Wiccan Seeker said:
It *IS* racism if you attribute that to their race. RACE-ism. And if you consistently state that other races perform less well than whites than you are making racial comparisons pointing towards white *supremacy*




I disagree. I am using those statistics not as a tool of racism, but to show that there are a lot of problems in the black community. You make it seem like blacks experience rampant racism and they are downtrodden because of this. In my opinion, a lot of their problems are self-inflicted.


Edited by RandalFlagg (04/13/05 07:36 PM)


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4049817 - 04/13/05 07:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Thank God you recognize that. Oh that's right....you secular Europeans don't believe in God...




We invented God and you guys took him to America with you :evil:

Geez man you're playing a game of debating! But I'll try to distance myself from the topic too.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: Asante]
    #4049841 - 04/13/05 07:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Prejudice baced on race is racism by definition

So what you are saying, Randalflagg, is that mild racism is rampant in America. Thank you for agreeing with me, even though our words differ we are saying the exact same thing.

Prejudice baced on race = a way to avoid the word RACISM.




I view racism as a deep hatred, revulsion, or steretyping of a certain race.

I view prejudice as a natural wariness that anybody gets when interacting with people that are unlike themselves. My definition might not match the dictionary's definition, but it is how I view things.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: niteowl]
    #4049850 - 04/13/05 07:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
In America their really is not that many racists. They do exist but they are few and far between.

In America you have rampant prejudice which is different than racism

Many people get these two terms confused.

Being a racist means that you believe your race is better than all the other races. Their are not very many people (that I have met) that fall into this category, and I live in southern USA where the KKK thrives.

Being prejudice means that you make a instant judgment about a person. This is rampant not only in America but all over the planet. (E.U. included)





I admit i might have been confusing the two terms, and you're right about pointing out the difference between them. thanx

It goes along with what i said earlier, that most people really don't want to be racist, also because it isn't something that is socially acceptable to be racist like back in the time, when all the "cool" kids were convinced that black people were inferior to them and such.

And it also goes along with how i said racism has become more of a psychological problem. Racial Prejudices are something like mental reflexes, like words or feeling that arise when one sees a black person. And sometimes that person could be ashamed to think what he's thinking. I wonder how shrinks deal with this kind of stuff?


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Racism in the US [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4049862 - 04/13/05 07:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I am using those statistics not as a tool of racism, but to show that there are a lot of problems in the black community.




Those statistics are racial. But if you consider RACE to be the CAUSE of the racial difference then that is racist.

Quote:

You make it seem like blacks experience rampant racism




Let me put it this way: the black people experience many problems because the people who hold most of the wealth and power treat them with the same "racial prejudice" you say is rampant in the united states. And since the official definition of Racism is "race-based prejudice" it means that we both agree on the same thing, only I say racism and you say "rampant prejudice towards their race".

Prejudice regarding hamsters is hamsterism
Prejudice regarding race is racism

Quote:

In my opinion, a lot of their problems are self-inflicted.




Now we are getting somewhere, I hope. Yes. A lot of these problems are brought about by their own community but the cause of this lies not in their RACE but in external factors, being enviroment, culture etc. What I'm saying is that if you give 1000 blacks and 1000 whites a fair shake that they will do to full extent of significance perform equally. Others say that can not happen because of racial differences. And -THAT- is racism. And because Freedom of Speech includes the word Racism I ought to be able to call something racist when, according to its textbook definition, it IS.


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