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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Taoism
    #4038732 - 04/10/05 10:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Hey guys. Just this friday, I took 3 grams of shrooms and I was amazed when I had seemed to gain this awareness of the oneness of the world and the meaningless of trying to find meaning in it all.. and how I felt like I understood what life meant and just this realization that was impossible to put into words - im sure alot of you know what i'm talking about. Anyways, it just happens that I am doing a research assignment on Taoism, AKA Daoism, which is a major philosophy in the eastern world. I was reading this book on Taoism and I came upon an interesting passage:

The way is sensed directly, without verbalizing, theorizing, or philosophizing. Differences are experienced without differentiating. The world is entered by leaving it whole, undivided, and timeless. The instant is forever. It is the experiential forever that is found in the center of a single-pointed awareness as it moves in harmonius accord with the flowing present. This condition is not described with absolutes because it falls outside the option of thoughts and words. The best sense of it is created when implied juxtapositions hang suspensed in unresolved tension. The resolution of opposites seems to be directed toward some remote and advanced learning, but it is really grounded in the unfolding present, in the thoughtless condition before the construction of opposites began. Taoism and Zen do not evolve toward some advanced knowing but, instead, revert to an earlier condition of simple clarity. The process of unlearning becomes more important than learning; emptying is given precedence over filling. Then, without apparant effort or struggle, without apparent thought or knowing, the unlearning somehow engenders insight, and the emptiness is filled.

So what do you guys think? Are the Taoists describing something which is quite common in the mushroom experience? I'd like to hear your thoughts.


--------------------


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Taoism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #4038863 - 04/10/05 11:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Taoism describes something that is quite common in life. The mushroom experience, while profound, has no special relation to it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Taoism and the vantage point [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #4040039 - 04/11/05 07:30 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

by unlearning, things are allowed to be more as they are, the world is more as it nakedly unfolds, our part in it is easier to discover and to play.

selectively disconnecting the automation of habits is achieved via practice, and in the practice is some keeping still and some resonance enhancement (concentration and relaxation meditations).

entering this via the mushroom experience is also possible, resonance becomes amazing, so one keeps still, the barrage of amazement keeps down the habit automation somewhat (generally- not selectively) and an un-learned state of having merged with the moment is at hand (really!).

both are valid. different and in some ways the same. having a good look in this direction with mushroom at the fortuitous time that an essay on Tao-ism is being prepared, sets you up nicely. It gives you a bead on the direction of the middle way, how it lis like a subtle balancing act in which nothing moves and everything is in flux. It gives you a peek at a non-judgemental direct connecting (not quite knowing, though definitely gnosis).

Once a direction like this is known, you can move towards it without moving another time. In that way the mushroom is a fabulous teacher, it may let you be your own teacher, and you may reach a vantage point to a goal that is not possible to seek except by practice.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Taoism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4041019 - 04/11/05 02:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Taoism describes something that is quite common in life. The mushroom experience, while profound, has no special relation to it.




I'd beg to differ. :wink:

Mushrooms seem to temporarily dissolve barriers within the mind, and shift awareness from a point after our mind to before our mind, a center in being, where we more directly perceive and experience reality. Thus our mind's definitions of what reality is fades into the background, and reality is simply experienced for what it is. Instead of projecting onto reality, the mushroom experience seems to be more involved with directly perceiving reality.

This, of course, definitely correlates with Taoism. :grin:

I'd say that, within my own life, my mushroom experiences gave me just what I needed in order to begin to bring more awareness to these subtle dynamics of reality, of being, and of the nature of my mind. Thus, when I discovered Taoism, it resonated within me in a way that was far too distinct to be ignored.

I'd definitely seek this out as far as you can. :wink: The day will then come when one's effort towards coming to full realization will bring you... where you need to be and where you need not to be... at the same time......  :shocked: :smirk:


:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Taoism [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4041605 - 04/11/05 05:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Taosim is the way of life. It is not a theory by it's definition, but a law. The principles apply rather you take drugs or not. Entheogens can give people a new perspective, BUT it is only a tool...and one of many that accomplish the same end. If you want to see Taoism applied just look around you. Anyone that says only the drug experience provides true spiritual insight is either a liar or a deluded fool. Taosim was inspired by observing the natural rythyms of life...not by getting intoxicated. Spiritualism that needs drugs is false.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Taoism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4041686 - 04/11/05 05:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I couldnt agree more!  :thumbup: :grin: :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Offlinedante
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Re: Taoism [Re: egghead1]
    #4041806 - 04/11/05 06:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This is a story I like very much, although it is Zen, Taoism directly influenced Zen moreso than Buddhism did. Zen and Taoist thoughts and ideas are interchangable.

A Zen roshi and a Hindu were walking together along a riverbank and decided to visit an adjacent island.
"Let's walk to he island," said the guru.
"Why not take the ferry?" suggested the roshi.
"Because," said the guru, "I've spent twenty years learning how to walk on water."
"Why take twenty years learning to walk on water," asked the roshi, "when you can take the ferry for a penny?"

This shows the simplicity that permeates throughout Taoist thought and philosophy. Taoism is not otherworldly, nor it is really anything special. It is the Way. You are always in accord with the Tao, even when you are not.


--------------------
The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Taoism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #4042038 - 04/11/05 06:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that you discovered meaning in the immediacy of a 'peak experience' [A. Maslow]. This Maslowian term is where we get the term'peak' or 'peaking' in a psychedelic experience. It is a mystical perception, expressed in Indian and Taoist Yoga as a result of the opening of the Wisdom Eye. Meaning is not expected to come by way of linear, prosaic, linguistic explanation - it comes not through rational apprehension but by transrational, mystical apprehension, and you've probably had a glimpse.

Psychedelic experience was categorized by R.E.L. Masters and Jean Houston ('The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience') back in the 1960's, so one needs to understand that a mere 'Sensory' level of psychedelic experience (maybe today's "Level 1" trip) is not going to be revealing of the higher potential experiences. Thus, there is no singular "mushroom experience" though undoubtedly the perceptions described in all the major religions and systems of attainment can be glimpsed at the higher end of the psychedelic continuum.

I for one would not have known anything about these things had it not been for psychedelic experience. I was a materialist, a scientific positivist and an agnostic prior to psychedelics, so they changed my life entirely (perhaps forever!)


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Taoism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #4042369 - 04/11/05 08:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I took 3 grams of shrooms and I was amazed when I had seemed to gain this awareness of the oneness of the world... and how I felt like I understood what life meant

The key word is "seemed". Amazonian shamans and brujos taking ayahuasca often wage wars on neighboring tribes because of their visions tell them to even though they are totally in error.

People on mushrooms equally believe all sorts of fictional stuff as real. If it helps you - fine. But believing that fungus is revealing any universal truth is a myth.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Taoism [Re: Swami]
    #4042552 - 04/11/05 09:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with you to a point. Yes, people tend to interpret entheogenic experiences in the light of their cultural upbringing, and religious preference. A non-practicing Catholic may suddenly become very devout, a Baptist might be saved, a Buddhist may feel he has glimpsed enlightenment, and a Native American Shaman may think they speak with spirits, or divine knowledge about neighboring tribes. This is true. One, though, cannot discount these substances ability to open up new perspectives on one's self. Entheogens have wrought lasting change on some individuals who used them under certain conditions. As Markos said, they open up people to the possibility of a "portable" peak experience which is repeatable with due care. This can have a profound effect...an illusion maybe...but the change effected is often quite real and lasting.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Taoism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #4042690 - 04/11/05 09:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

any descriptions of the Tao are false.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Taoism [Re: Vvellum]
    #4044095 - 04/12/05 04:46 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Prove it!


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Taoism [Re: psyka]
    #4044667 - 04/12/05 09:30 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

the Tao would be beyond our linguistic and rational constructs.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Taoism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4044681 - 04/12/05 09:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Taosim is the way of life. It is not a theory by it's definition, but a law. The principles apply rather you take drugs or not. Entheogens can give people a new perspective, BUT it is only a tool...and one of many that accomplish the same end. If you want to see Taoism applied just look around you.




Definitely. :wink:

Quote:


Anyone that says only the drug experience provides true spiritual insight is either a liar or a deluded fool. Taosim was inspired by observing the natural rythyms of life...not by getting intoxicated. Spiritualism that needs drugs is false.




While you are definitely right, not anyone in this thread has suggested or implied this. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Taoism [Re: psyka]
    #5253552 - 02/02/06 01:04 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"just wait untill everyone stop waiting.."
-unknown :P

(don't know, I feel it is related but think not) HeH


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Taoism [Re: Vvellum]
    #5254061 - 02/02/06 06:15 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
the Tao would be beyond our linguistic and rational constructs.




I agree, yet I disagree. It is everything we say and everything we think, yet it also transcends those constructs. It is all pervasive and all-encompassing.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Taoism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #5254504 - 02/02/06 11:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the second look at this great thread. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Taoism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5256097 - 02/02/06 06:42 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Taosim is the way of life. It is not a theory by it's definition, but a law. The principles apply rather you take drugs or not. Entheogens can give people a new perspective, BUT it is only a tool...and one of many that accomplish the same end. If you want to see Taoism applied just look around you. Anyone that says only the drug experience provides true spiritual insight is either a liar or a deluded fool. Taosim was inspired by observing the natural rythyms of life...not by getting intoxicated. Spiritualism that needs drugs is false.




Took the words right out of my mouth! :smile:


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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
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Registered: 01/08/05
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Re: Taoism [Re: lysergicide]
    #5262724 - 02/04/06 03:58 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A common theme in both Taoism and Zen are seeing/perceiving things as they are. Over life we may start to develop our own concepts of how things are. We start seeing things in terms of how we expect them to be.

Taking entheogens can help remove these preconceptions by granting everything a new freshness. Things that were mundane before are seen as if new again, like looking at something for the first time. Details forgotten become clear again.


--------------------
\m/


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InvisibleDmonikal
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Re: Taoism [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
    #5262916 - 02/04/06 05:04 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

"Hey guys. Just this friday, I took 3 grams of shrooms and I was amazed when I had seemed to gain this awareness of the oneness of the world and the meaningless of trying to find meaning in it all.. and how I felt like I understood what life meant and just this realization that was impossible to put into words - im sure alot of you know what i'm talking about. Anyways, it just happens that I am doing a research assignment on Taoism, AKA Daoism, which is a major philosophy in the eastern world. I was reading this book on Taoism and I came upon an interesting passage:

The way is sensed directly, without verbalizing, theorizing, or philosophizing. Differences are experienced without differentiating. The world is entered by leaving it whole, undivided, and timeless. The instant is forever. It is the experiential forever that is found in the center of a single-pointed awareness as it moves in harmonius accord with the flowing present. This condition is not described with absolutes because it falls outside the option of thoughts and words. The best sense of it is created when implied juxtapositions hang suspensed in unresolved tension. The resolution of opposites seems to be directed toward some remote and advanced learning, but it is really grounded in the unfolding present, in the thoughtless condition before the construction of opposites began. Taoism and Zen do not evolve toward some advanced knowing but, instead, revert to an earlier condition of simple clarity. The process of unlearning becomes more important than learning; emptying is given precedence over filling. Then, without apparant effort or struggle, without apparent thought or knowing, the unlearning somehow engenders insight, and the emptiness is filled.

So what do you guys think? Are the Taoists describing something which is quite common in the mushroom experience? I'd like to hear your thoughts."

The spirit is beyond human comprehension. The wool is over our eyes to protect us from evil spirits and good spirits. So that we can choose what path we want and not have it forced down our throats.


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