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OfflineJaguarWarrior101
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Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally?
    #4038727 - 04/10/05 10:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm sorry if this has been posted before, but my searches didn't point me to what I was looking for.

What possible vitamins, amino acids, and/or supplements could we add to increase the strength(colonial aggressiveness) or potency of the alkaloids in our mushrooms?

Does anyone know what these mushrooms use to produce the active alkaloids psilocybin, psilocin, and baeocystin? If we know what the mushrooms need to produce it maybe we can give them more of what they need. Or for what purpose does the mushroom produce these chemicals, and what factors can affect the mushroom to produce more or less of these alkaloids?


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The above post is purely hypothetical, and should not be considered the true thoughts, opinions, or actions of a real life person.

We perceive. This is hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.
~Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinexburn
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4039699 - 04/11/05 02:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

do a search for tryptamine hcl it is what is used in the production of the trippy drugs : P also DMT would yield results in a search


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: xburn]
    #4039757 - 04/11/05 03:04 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xburn said:
do a search for tryptamine hcl  it is what is used in the production of the trippy drugs : P  also DMT would yield results in a search




Tryptophan is an amino acid.. The rumor has it that it helps in the aid of potency for psilo's. Kelp is rich in Trytophan. Try using a kelp spray for an additive and please post some accurate results. I'm dying to hear some feedback on this. :thumbup:


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Offlinexburn
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: Hotnuts]
    #4039857 - 04/11/05 03:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

`yes tryptophan is an amino acid. But tryptamine HCL can be bought if you live in the right country. As i understand they are completely different. I have only heard of tryptamine working for increased potency and do not know anything about trytaphan but experimenting is fun : )


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: xburn]
    #4040230 - 04/11/05 10:33 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

powdered mimosa hostilis root bark is a great source of DMT to add into your cakes. i believe that stand at 500mg/100g potentcy. you could probably get ~5g per cake mixed in, which would be like 25mg, i would be curious to know how much tryptamine/DMT can be used by the mycellium.

or you could make the ayahuasca tea (more potent per unit than the bark) and add that to your cakes instead of water, but that would be acidic, so it would also require some calcium carbonate to neutralize the PH.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4041789 - 04/11/05 06:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"Tryptophan is an important amino acid in the synthesis of psilocybin. One may rightly think that adding this amino acid to the media may increase the final psilocybin production. Apparently this is not the case....Analysis of carbon-14 uptake by P. Cubensis in liquid culture showed that tryptophan is not directly used by the mushroom to produce psilocybin and the addition of which will not increase the the total amount of psilocybin."

"The addition of dextrose yielded the greatest benefit, followed by TMI (Trace Minerals, Inc.) and lastly ammonium succinate-glycine. In combined form, dextrose was significantly better in growth and psilocybin biosynthesis than either supplement singularly."

From The Mushroom Entheogen: Part 3a - Nutritional Influences on Growth and Psychedelic Biosynthesis by C.B. Gold,
In Psychedelic Monographs and Essays - 6 collected by Thomas Lyttle
PM & E Publishing Group, Boynton Beach, FL, 1993

Add the equivalent of 1/2 tsp. of Dextrose Monohydrate (any health food store) to the water one uses for a typical 1/2 pint PF cake. Trace minerals for 24 cakes (including a calcium buffer) can be obtained from 2 GNC Multi-Mineral tablets also dissolved in the water.


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4043252 - 04/12/05 12:12 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"The addition of dextrose yielded the greatest benefit, followed by TMI (Trace Minerals, Inc.) and lastly ammonium succinate-glycine. In combined form, dextrose was significantly better in growth and psilocybin biosynthesis than either supplement singularly."

Add the equivalent of 1/2 tsp. of Dextrose Monohydrate (any health food store) to the water one uses for a typical 1/2 pint PF cake. Trace minerals for 24 cakes (including a calcium buffer) can be obtained from 2 GNC Multi-Mineral tablets also dissolved in the water.




the wording of this is confusing me. so their saying that the dextrose in combination with the TMI (how can you combine a chemical with a company?) and the ammominum will provide a significantly better growth than any of them used by themselves, or any two together?

then you go on to say that you add 1/2 tsp. (per half pint cake) to the water, and mix in two Multi-Mineral tablets which can support up to 24 cakes, is this correct? when you say "including a calcium buffer", do you mean that the vitamins have the buffer in them, or that we should include one because one of the two aforementioned ingredients in acidic?

they say that this will only work when the 3 chemicals are used together, yet you only mention the use of two. why is this? is the ammonium chemical hard to aquire?


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OfflineJaguarWarrior101
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: Abermelin]
    #4043382 - 04/12/05 12:44 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the replies guys, now lets clarify everything so this is well understood.

TMI - You mean trace minerals? Perhaps, crushing up a multi-vitamin tablet that contain all these?

Dextrose - I know this is used often in Agar, but would this make your cakes more likely to get contaminated, being that they take longer to colonize?
Has anyone here used dextrose in there cakes or casings that can comment on it?

Ammonium succinate-glycine - We need more info on this. If it's related to plain Ammonia, then it should also be basic in nature which will help raise the PH.

Has anyone ever considered adding whey or casein protein powder(they contain branch chain amino acids), I wonder what if any effects either or both of these would have on our mushrooms.


--------------------
The above post is purely hypothetical, and should not be considered the true thoughts, opinions, or actions of a real life person.

We perceive. This is hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.
~Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4043441 - 04/12/05 12:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

ive used dextrose, as in corn syrup(karo), when i boil the brown rice for my substrate. i figured it would infuse the rice with more nutrients since mycellium seem to have such an easy time growing in the karo/water jars. i havent done side by side comaprisons yet since the cakes usually colonize around two weeks, and any difference prob wouldnt be noticable, but any little bit helps.

i have no idea what the hell Dextrose Monohydrate is.


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OfflineMonkeyPod
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: Abermelin]
    #4043788 - 04/12/05 03:06 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Concentrace brand makes a chelated liquid trace mineral supplement that's perfect. This is one of the most complete and bioavailable mineral supplements on the market.

http://vitaminlady.com/Trace_Mineral_research/Concentrace_trace_minerals.asp


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: MonkeyPod]
    #4045840 - 04/12/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

comon markofthegnostic, dont fucking post cryptic shit and not follow up on it. tell everyone what the hell you meant from what you said.


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OfflineJaguarWarrior101
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: Abermelin]
    #4046952 - 04/12/05 06:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Abermelin,
Pure dextrose can be bought as a powder, I think monohydrate means it contains the pure product and one molecule of water per dextrose.
IE: A compound, such as calcium chloride monohydrate, CaCl2?H2O, contains one molecule of water. I've also seen creatine as a monohydrate.

MonkeyPad,
I don't really see anything in that solution that a multi-vitamin wouldn't have. The only thing I was thinking about with multi-vitamin tablets is that they may contain other crap that helps you digest them etc, which may or may not be beneficial for our mushroom.


--------------------
The above post is purely hypothetical, and should not be considered the true thoughts, opinions, or actions of a real life person.

We perceive. This is hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.
~Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMonkeyPod
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4047416 - 04/12/05 09:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You probably didn't read the list of trace minerals in the paragraph below the main list. The trace minerals in that list are not in 99% of the vitamin supplements you would normally buy.

Anyway, most multivitamins contain binders, and not digestive aids, that prevent the tablets from disolving into a usable form. They also usually contain other vitamin/mineral forms that aren't very bioavailable. Just a few of the more prevalent binders, fillers and flow-agents you'll find in most trash vitamins are titanium dioxide, magnesium stearate, silica, etc... Any old vitamin supplement from the store is usually useless garbage that you shit out without using. The best forms of vitamins are capsules that contain powders and contain no binders or fillers, tablets as whole food source that contain no binders or fillers and liquids. Also, the chelated forms of minerals tend to be more readily absorbed by humans.

I was thinking the concentrace liquid would be better because it's already in a liquid form that's usable and it contains nothing but minerals; you just add it to your water. Not to mention that a lot of vitamins today add herbs (assuming there is any efficacy to the low grade they put in there) some of those herbs have intifungal properties (garlic, rosemary, etc...).


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OfflineJaguarWarrior101
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: MonkeyPod]
    #4047477 - 04/12/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Good points made MonkeyPod, I knew there was crap in those tablets that may not be useful for our purposes.

Ok has anyone used Peptone-s(seen it on Spore Works) with their mushrooms, and if so tell us about your experience and opinions on it.


--------------------
The above post is purely hypothetical, and should not be considered the true thoughts, opinions, or actions of a real life person.

We perceive. This is hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.
~Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineJaguarWarrior101
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4051121 - 04/13/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ok so to organize what I'm still trying to find answers for the effects of:
1)peptone-s
2)Ammonium succinate-glycine
3)whey or casein protein powder


--------------------
The above post is purely hypothetical, and should not be considered the true thoughts, opinions, or actions of a real life person.

We perceive. This is hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.
~Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4055726 - 04/14/05 06:50 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Dextrose speeds colonization. PF cakes sterilized for 45-60 minutes transferred to a HEPA aerated, Lysol sprayed, old-tec glove box does not contaminate.

Check the cited article yourself for details of the research.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: MonkeyPod]
    #4055743 - 04/14/05 06:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Some of these binders and extraneous compounds precipitate out while the water is simply decanted off. Of course, other variables like the nutritional level of grains remain unknown. Then again, mushroom strain and potency due to genetics can't be determined either. If nothing else, Dextrose seems to make a significant difference.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleArsey
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4058622 - 04/15/05 01:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JaguarWarrior101 said:
Ok so to organize what I'm still trying to find answers for the effects of:
1)peptone-s
2)Ammonium succinate-glycine
3)whey or casein protein powder




Based upon liquid culture analysis I'd venture to say "Ixnay on the glycine".

In one study the average psilocybin content of 7 day mycelium with glycine in the media was 0.62% with the glycine ommitted it was 0.71%.

When ammonium succinate was ommited the content dropped to 0.25% Interestingly an ammonium succinate level of 0.05 percent produce higher levels of psilocybine(0.58%) than both 0.1 & 0.2%(psilo of 0.56 & 0.46%)

Of course bear in mind these results are from 7day liquid cultures and extrapolating such data to the content of psilocybine in carpophores is just.... well an extrapolation. However, the by the same right increasing the glucose from .25 to 1.0 reflected an increase is psilocybine from 0.46 to 1.03%.

In my own opinion excessive nitrogen is not the way to go. The focus should lean more towards amping up the carbs and fine tuning the micro nutes...

Personally if i may add a few things...
I think calcium buffers may not be all that great of an idea. Sure they're commomnly employed and prove greatly beneficial for Agaricus and some other mushrooms but so does magnesium! I think that for psilocybine production a lower ph is more beneficial. I tend to believe the higher the ph the lower the psilocybine content with anything above 6.5 or so being potentially detrimental.. call me crazy but I'm leaning towards the ideal range falling around 4.2 to 4.5!

One benficial trace element you may want to take a closer look at is zinc. In general it is used by fungal metabolism pathways that produce primary indolic compounds which are necessary in ample amounts if you're after secondary metabolites that are derived from such.


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OfflineJaguarWarrior101
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: Arsey]
    #4059044 - 04/15/05 03:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Arsey,
Interesting info on the ammonium succinate-glycine, what is the source for that?

What makes you feel a more acidic substrate is better? Is there any experiments that test and compare PH vs alkaloid content?


--------------------
The above post is purely hypothetical, and should not be considered the true thoughts, opinions, or actions of a real life person.

We perceive. This is hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.
~Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleArsey
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Re: Vitamins, amino acids and/or supplements for our fungus ally? [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4059318 - 04/15/05 04:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There's a submerged culture study by Catalfomo & Tyler that was published in Llyodia... It's posted around here somewhere but I can't find it... At any rate, They grew mycelium in erlenmeyer flask and test it ever so many days for mass and psylo content. They changed up the media formula and charted the results.

As far a ph... it's kinda an anecdotal extrapolation of mine base don these... chemical and biological 'observations', for lack of a better term:

Chemically speaking...

Psilocin is obtained by dephosphorylation of psilocybin under strongly acidic or alkaline conditions. Psilocin is relatively unstable due to its phenolic OH group. Under alkaline conditions in the presence of oxygen it immediately forms bluish and dark black degradation products.


Quote:


The Mushroom Entheogen
The Measure of the Mushroom
C.B. Gold

Taken from PM&E Volume Five

I use an acetic acid-water extraction solution to help extract the psilocin and psilocybin more completely and also, to lower the pH so that the active tryptamines will be more stable. Without the acetic acid the solution will quickly react with atmospheric oxygen in the presence of endogenous enzymes to form a strong blue product and in the process destroy some of the psilocybin/psilocin.




Now this guy and a few others if I'm not mistaken, often write of psilos having an advanced rate of degradation in nuetral to alkaline ph ranges. Furthermore, the enzymes that influence the breakdown of tryptamines may be less active in this acidic state. For those two reasons, it seems a nuetral or higher ph shows some potential to lower the concentration by ehancing, or otherwise making conditions favorable for breakdown.

Likewise... it seems to have been demonstrated in the vegetative mycelium aswell:
Quote:


Lloydia Vol. 27 No.1 Catalfomo & Tyler

Maximum yields of both psilocybin and mycelium occurred in the acid pH range (4.0-4.6)
Catalfomo and Tyler



CULTIVATION AND ANALYSIS OF PSILOCYBE SPECIES AND AN INVESTIGATION OF GALERINA STEGLICHI.

Quote:


Jochen Gartz

Originally published in Annali Museo Civico di Rovereto, vol. 10, pp. 297-306, 1995
Recently, the qualitative detection of psilocybin, psilocin and baeocystin in extracts of Galerina Steglichii BESL has been described (BESL, 1993). this detection was the first evidence of the occurence of the alkaloids in the genus Galerina. these tiny blueing mushrooms were described as a new species from the botanical garden of Regensburg, Germany (BESL, 1993). In early 1993 they grew on an acidic substrate in a warm house there. The orgin of this species is unclear.




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