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Offlinestvip
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Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance?
    #4038401 - 04/10/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I am wondering - what would be the minimal dosing interval that would allow a non-addictive habit, which is to say, a regular use habit, but which doesn't incur any efficacy tolerance or other types of physical addiction.
My initial guesstimate would be once every three days, as IIRC morphine takes 36 hours to clear the system, and an additional ~36 hours are added to help ensure brain receptors re-regulate to normal levels after morphine is cleared. However, things might be complicated by more persistent metabolites, or I may be overly optimistic about re-regulation of opioid receptors. So - does anyone have a clearcut answer, one based either on solid medical data, or personal experience (not similar guesstimates)?


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: stvip]
    #4038432 - 04/10/05 09:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You can still become an addict at 3 day intervals, if you dont want to be an addict just dont do them.


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #4038597 - 04/10/05 10:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"You can still become an addict at 3 day intervals"

Ah, and the reason you believe this is... ?

"if you dont want to be an addict just dont do them"

Never implied that I personally would. However, there has to be some time interval that, once elapsed, one is returned to baseline biochemically. Hence, I disagree that physical addiction or tolerance is unavoidable. It is of informational interest to quantify this interval; literature can be useful on this matter, but astoundingly, even peer-reviewed published medical articles are often at variance with reality when it comes to recreational drug use. Hence I ask on this forum. If you have actual information to share, I'd like to hear it. Condescending advice is readily available from the DEA, so no need to share that.


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Offlineneuro
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: stvip]
    #4038880 - 04/10/05 11:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Addiction is a multifacetted condition that is a complex interaction between behavioral reinforcement and chemical reinforcement. You'll be hard pressed to find a good answer on this one. I'd bet that a fair amount of people will end up addicted after a good few weeks of every 3 day usage.


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Offlinethe man
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: neuro]
    #4039071 - 04/11/05 12:34 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

one thing to consider is a typical alchohol addiction. once a alkoholic always one. so not matter if they dotn consume or cosume a little or alot for that matter they are alkaholics.

i dont think he was being condecending, he was simply sayign there is no fool proof way nto to get addicted. everyoen is differnt(insert erowid manifesto)

peace


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OfflineCubieman420
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: the man]
    #4039474 - 04/11/05 02:02 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If you want to use opiates and enjoy them regulary (this is NOT for everyone) I would say once a week at most. I have noticed that after long intervals of taking oxycodone/hydrocodone/morphine once a week roughly that it is not as enjoyable. Even at 7+ days apart between doses a small tolerance did occur. Not really in the sense that I ever needed to up my dosage, but I did not find the later experiences were not as enjoyable as the others. I find that 1-2 times a month is a really good number to go by when it comes to opiates. Yes, it is nice to take them at work or school, etc, etc, but I find that actually waiting for longer periods of time makes opiates more enjoyable. Anytime is a good time for opies unlike say LSD or mushrooms. But if you treat opiates like these drugs your "experiences" will be much more enjoyable, and quite memorable. Sorry I didn't really say anything technical or give you any numbers, but maybe you can still use/relate to my post.


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OfflineAneglakya
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Cubieman420]
    #4040022 - 04/11/05 07:06 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Neuro, I remember when you told me that I was doomed to always be addicted.....it was bad... He was with me through the entire ordeal.. I remember when we both had that dream that we hung out in the woods and I gave you a little white pill that made you feel good for a long time, then the next day.. oh that sick look on your face is plastered in my memory.. you felt so terrible..You were like "why the hell do you do this all the time if it makes you feel so shitty".. ...I started thinking about it.. and now im clean..Thank you my friend..

like i said in the other post.. I started with pods, for nearly 4 years I drank tea daily. moved on to the needle, now im clean through the done switching to bupe..

If your going to drink tea, your in for a bumpy ride.. There is no stopping you from doing so as I too was lured in and did not heed peoples advice.. I thought I could control it, no I KNEW I could control it..then I graduated to the needle. Didn't think that would take control of me either. Started using once a month.. eventuall was 5-10 times a day (+$100-$200 a day) Hang on tight, its going to be a bumpy ride...


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Cubieman420]
    #4040831 - 04/11/05 01:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ah, I should've known discussing opiate addiction would lead to more emotional than informational responses. I apologize if my first reply was somewhat edgy, I actually have a lot of sympathy for those who have fallen into the tallons of addiction. Wanting to feel good is not a crime, it's a perverse quirk of nature that our innate biochemistry is built to resist tampering with hedonistic tone (actually, it seems built to resist raising, but not lowering, hedonistic tone).
But - it is possible to use opiates for long periods of time without becoming addicted. In the broader sense of that word, it is also possible to become addicted with an infinite dosing interval - that is, theoretically, a single partaking from the milk of paradise can leave one craving, with obsessive thoughts about retrying. This is why I restricted the discussion to the development of tolerance and/or physical dependence. I ignore for now the fact that when discussing reinforcing stimuli, the distinction of physical and psychological dependence can become blurred (as is most apparent in the case of cocaine). I believe that in the case of opiates, the distinction exists meaningfully.
Someone suggested the analogy with alcohol - once an alcoholic, always one. Yes, but while ethanol is probably the most devastating addictive drug of them all, with withdrawal effects which are far worse than those of opiates, it is very common to dose with ethanol regularly, as a habit, without being an addict (indeed, it is even part of the ceremony of a certain largeish religion). Even tobacco, the most addictive of them all (but with mild withdrawal symptoms) has its chippers.
Now then, I have found one study, conducted on rats, which bodes ill. In fact, it seems to me too bad to be true:

J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1976 Feb;196(2):280-7.
"Studies on tolerance. I. The role of the interval between doses on the development of tolerance to morphine."
Mushlin BE, Grell R, Cochin J.

I am at a loss to explain this biochemically. This doesn't seem explicable even by accumulation of morphine metabolites such as M3G or M6G. But then, I am not (yet?) an expert on this subject.

I can share my own personal experience, FWIW - 200 mg of codeine phosphate, twice weekly for three weeks. Diminished euphoria after the inital dose, but otherwise no discernible tolerance, and no withdrawal symptoms upon discontinuation. It also had a remarkable long-term positive effect on my mood (following discontinuation).
(I should note that in my country, 200 mg codeine p is available OTC, though the white-coats are averse to dispensing it)

Is there anyone here who has experienced withdrawal symptoms following discontinuation of a weekly *equidose* morphine or opium habit?


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Offlinewhatever123
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: stvip]
    #4042044 - 04/11/05 06:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I believe it is possible to avoid developing a PHYSICAL addiction if you stretch your use out over a period of a number of days, maybe 7-10, but then you have to deal with the psychological element, and that sucks too. If you DO attempt to use opium and not become addicted, I strongly suggest a failsafe of some sort, as to avoid taking opium before the time you must wait for your next does is up. After all, you may say NOW that you won't do it during the intervals, but if you start to use it and enjoy it, what will be stopping you from taking it when you shouldn't. Just something to consider.
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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: stvip]
    #4042259 - 04/11/05 07:51 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Once a year. If you think that's too far apart then the addiction process has already begun.


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Offlinebiglo
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Asante]
    #4042408 - 04/11/05 08:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know what to tell you as far as addiction goes. I've been able to use on and off again without any addiction, but know people that have personally. I'm not saying I feel all superior to everyone else, but I can put a list of reasons I think are some of the top reasons for opiate addiction:

1. A steady, reliable source of the drug
Cost usually isn't an issue, only that the above condition is met.

2. Boredom, or some reason, environment, or state one tries to escape from with
opiate use.

3. And the number one way not to become addicted:
Realize that opiates are only good without a tolerance. Once you become
addicted or have a high tolerance, opiates only keep you from getting sick
and feeling normal, not getting high. Opiates are not marijuana, you can't
keep using them every day and get high. And the dangers of addiction far
outweigh the effects one gets from a week of binging.

I guess the only reason I've been lucky is I've never gotten enough to get myself into any trouble with, and don't keep seeking out a new source. If I have the urge to do "more" I just use a different drug like mj, alcohol, or whatever else I can get a hold of, or just don't do any!

Anyways, stay safe, and make sure that yall space out anything you do. I treat almost all drugs as a special thing to do, instead of the thing to do. Glad to see Entheo back on the boards under one of his aliases.


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OfflineCubieman420
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: biglo]
    #4042434 - 04/11/05 08:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I have a steady supply on all the good opiates basically and I still realize what you just said. They are not fun with a tolerance, and addiction is just bad news. I guess I personally just have the willpower to say...."Hey, wait a month or so before your next dose".


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: biglo]
    #4042624 - 04/11/05 09:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well, this thread is straying off-topic, and my reply will exarcebate that, but anyhow:
I think, though I am rather inexperienced, that the moct important factor for staving off addiction is that the usage of opiates is a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. When used for a specific purpose - control postoperative pain, use as an anxiolytic for a predetermined stressful period of time, maximize relaxation during a weekend, reset a jetlagged biorhythm, etc., you aim to attain that goal, and overusing the opiate interferes with that. Of course, know thyself. People who set a physical exercise goal and then fail to keep-up with it midexercise, who cannot function while fasting due to obsessive thoughts about food, who are unable to resist sexual temptation when such would be harmful, who feel dependent on alcohol for whatever reason, etc., shouldn't attempt using opiates. Although well-meaning, I believe that the implication made by some posters that addiction is completely unavoidable when used more than very rarely (once a creamy-latex-white moon), to be incorrect. Opiates have a very long history of use (and misuse), they are still routinely employed meidcally these days (heroin is still used in the UK), and addiction is a relatively rare occurence. It happens, and is terrible, but it is the exception to the rule. (and no, at least according to animal trials, it is a myth that opiates are less addictive when used to control pain). I am certainly not suggesting that anyone try opiates themselves - the danger is always there. Perhaps it is especially important to emphasize the terrible danger of addiction in a forum such as the Shroomery, because readers might be led to believe opiates are as relatively innocuous as the various psychedelics, which of course is not the case. However, all I am seeking is accurate information.

I agree that avoiding tolerance is key - diminishing effects must be a signal to immediately taper down and then cease use for a while, rather than to increase dose in order to attain same effects.

So far one poster has responded that once-weekly dosing did eventually result in tolerance (btw, what was your ingestion route, and how long did it take to develop?). Also, to recap - an animal study found that after five dosings, all different dosing intervals tested(ranging from one day to 21 days) resulted in some tolerance (which is very surprising to me).

Ah well. At least I never develop tolerance to Beethoven and Bach (though I do need to switch), despite very heavy dosings. (My neighbours do seem to suffer from withdrawal though - how else to explain the shouts of 'yay!' when the stereo stops?)


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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: stvip]
    #4047972 - 04/12/05 11:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Addition is psychological and physical in most drugs. Smokes are one that is both, alcohol as well.

opium is more like nicotene, 3 day intervals will make you addicted unless you have hardcore willpower. Why would you do it every 3 days, why not once a week or twice a month. The fact that you want todo it every 3 days means you really want todo it everyday, or likely will.


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Offlinewhatever123
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Fluxburn]
    #4048116 - 04/13/05 12:43 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

goog point


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Fluxburn]
    #4049357 - 04/13/05 08:46 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Why would you do it every 3 days, why not once a week or twice a month. The fact that you want todo it every 3 days means you really want todo it everyday, or likely will.




Big fat arti on that  :thumbup:

I like to add to that something people tend to forget:

Quote:

3 day intervals will make you addicted unless you have hardcore willpower all the way through the upcoming 60 years of your life




Nobody can guarantee 60 years of willpower, and that makes Opium users into junkies. Thomas de Quincey used twice a month for YEARS before becoming a hardcore junkie. And his laudanum addiction basically comes down to drinking poppyhead tea.

If you want to sustain Opium use for a lifetime, over half a century, then you'd best use it accordingly. In my view this is once a year, not more. If you want to use more often you're too eager. If one Christmas a year is enough of that holiday, then one Opium day is too, IMO.

Using Opium is dancing with a Demon, nothing less.


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Fluxburn]
    #4050863 - 04/13/05 04:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"Addition is psychological and physical in most drugs. Smokes are one that is both, alcohol as well."

Right. I drink alcohol daily (usually 95% ethanol diluted in coke or cranberry juice), have never been intoxicated to the level drunkedness (don't believe I would enjoy it), and have never felt cravings for alcohol. I think most drinking people have similar habits (the southern French and Italians alone account for a significant percentage of the world's wine consumption, often consuming a bottle a day), yet alcoholism is the worst addiction of them all. Withdrawal by itself can cause irreversible physical damage. It is an epidemic with devastating individual and social impact, sometimes significantly impeding the development of entire countries (Belarus, for example).
Considering this, it's strange people don't advise drinking only once a year - say, once every Passover. The reason is probably acknowledgement of the fact that there are many factors, and their complex interaction, which are involved in addiction. Thus, no general advice is applicable to a single individual, and their changing environment. Once again, this is why I restricted the discussion to physical dependence and tolerance. Some people ask why would I, personally, want to imbibe on opium once every three days, unless I were already addicted. To which I reply - I don't, and in fact, can't (my little apartment-balcony garden can only support so many poppies, especially when they are grown alongside various other plants). That was simply my initial guesstimate for the forementioned question. It is probably wrong, and I'm beginning to think the question was somewhat misguided. It is perhaps best to make predetermined discontinuations during regular use. Perhaps (another wild guesstimate) once every week for two months, then a two-week break. It would probably be advisable to avoid exact habits - if your use is always on a given day of the week, one might develop anticipation towards that exact day, etc. Studies show that tolerance to opiates is related to habits of use, not only the dosing regimen. Taking a dose in a different setting can suddenly abolish tolerance (which is dangerous in addicts who have become accostumed to high doses). Also, it might be wise to switch the opiate substance if one intends to use for long periods of time. This is what is done in medical settings to avoid tolerance - switching opiate medications. This is probably why some people find kratom to be supposedly de-addicting, despite the fact that its active agents are just structually non-opiate, but potent, opioids.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: stvip]
    #4051535 - 04/13/05 07:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You can ofcourse believe what you want to, but please pay close attention:

Recreational use of opium is incomparable with recreational use of alcohol. It is unbelievably more addictive. I use "unbelievably" because the standard response of opium addicts is: "I don't believe this! How did this happen to me? When? How can this be?"

You've got a false sense of security right until you one day find out you're hooked, -bad- even from something as poppyhead tea.

The empire of China has been almost brought to it's knees by Opium and wars have been fought over it. Drug illegalisation was mostly based on  the social disaster of Opium addiction.

People greatly underestimate the powers of Opium, it seems so subtle but is so coercive. You cannot possibly compare it with alcohol or assume you are safe because alcohol did not addict you.

19/20 drugs in the US Schedule 1 are Opiates. That's not for nothing!

And.. switch opiates? to what? Opium stands apart from all Opiates. I doubt that a civilized nation like Israel would have opiates without prescription. Heroin? That isn't a switch, you must know that! Opium is incomparable to "opiates". That's a bigger difference than comparing a fine Pomerol wine with a bottle of distilled grain alcohol.

Morphine, Noscapine, Codeine, Thebaine, Papaverine and Meconate combined naturally will spoil you rotten with delight. There's nothing like Opium, and substituting it would mean taking something more addictive and less interesting. Smokers and swallowers choose fine opium over high grade heroin any day of the week!
..but you must prevent "any day of the week" .

Quote:

Taking a dose in a different setting can suddenly abolish tolerance (which is dangerous in addicts who have become accostumed to high doses).




I'm sorry but that's not quite true. If you don't take it for a long time, then tolerance diminishes, but not by any other way. Once you are addicted nothing but abstinence can make your tolerance diminish, and that means going through withdrawal.

Most people who don't set specific dates end up consuming increasingly often. Opium wants to be taken more and more often.

I say this not to lecture you, I say this because I care and want to spread information to keep as many as possible safe and truely high.
A green username means management by the way. I not just want to keep you high and safe but I was appointed the task.
Welcome to the Shroomery :heart:


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Edited by Asante (04/13/05 07:06 PM)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: Asante]
    #4060561 - 04/15/05 10:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"I say this not to lecture you, I say this because I care and want to spread information to keep as many as possible safe and truely high.
A green username means management by the way. I not just want to keep you high and safe but I was appointed the task.
Welcome to the Shroomery "

Thanks for the welcome!

However, I too believe disseminating accurate information is of paramount importance; I must reply to these points:

"Recreational use of opium is incomparable with recreational use of alcohol. It is unbelievably more addictive"

Yes. I think the important distinction is that people seem to almost intentionally become addicted to alcohol, they know what they're doing when they become dependent on drinking to drown their sorrows, whereas uncautious opiate use can cause an addiction to sneak upon its victim. I mentioned alcohol because the addiction it does cause is far more destructive physically, mentally, and socially, than opiates.

"The empire of China has been almost brought to it's knees by Opium"

Not really. It was just the first colossal failure of drug prohibition.

"and wars have been fought over it."

Not by addicted users - by British Empire's forces, which refused to accept China's trading ban. Similar wars have been fought over spices, and such, during incredibly bloody European world domination (which, of course, included the genocide of the native americans).

"Drug illegalisation was mostly based on the social disaster of Opium addiction."

No, the first drug to be outlawed was opium - but only in smoked form, and only in San Francisco. This specifity makes the purpose clear - to inconvenience the Chinese immigrants. Follow-up drug laws were based on similar premises.

"19/20 drugs in the US Schedule 1 are Opiates."

No, that's not even a proximate figure. Schedule I includes heroin and other opiates, as well as mescaline, peyote in general, psilocybin and psilocin, and even cannabis (as well as several other non-opiate substances).
Opium and morphine are in Schedule II. In fact, it's quite easy to make an opium preparation of full potency which would be in Schedule V (mix with another active agent and dilute to 10mg per 100 ml water).

"That's not for nothing!"

And even if it were true - are you really going to push the point of the US drug laws being logical and useful? Marijuana in Schedule I, the scourge of amphetamine in Schedule II, murderous tobacco and alcohol unrestricted to adults?

"And.. switch opiates? to what? Opium stands apart from all Opiates."

Not really. It's mostly morphine, with a few other alkaloids mostly responsible for non-opiate body effects. The codeine is negligible in amount, papaverine and thebaine are not opioids, noscapine's role is unknown, but doesn't seem to have much effect, meconate is irrelevant.

"I doubt that a civilized nation like Israel"

Israel? Civlized?

"would have opiates without prescription."

Well, codeine is. Tramadol isn't. So it is neither leniency nor careful planning that is responsible for this situation - like all countries' drug laws, they are subject to haphazardness and arbitrariness.

But do you really think it makes a difference? Prohibition is a total failure.
Other, better, countries have heroin perscriptions for addicts. The UK doesn't limit that to addicts. I suppose these are the Great Unwashed?
The US has a hard time believing civilized nations such as Peru would freely allow the cultivation and sale of coca leaves. That's why they civilly spray-dusted farmers' corps, along with nearby villages and people, with toxic herbicides.

Btw, real opiates are probably much harder to obtain around here. My dentist wouldn't dream of prescribing hydrocodone or oxycodone for something like wisdom teeth extraction. I understand that is standard practice in the US.

"Heroin? That isn't a switch, you must know that! Opium is incomparable to "opiates". That's a bigger difference than comparing a fine Pomerol wine with a bottle of distilled grain alcohol."

I believe the analogy is reversed - it's pure morphine which is like distilled alcohol from the mixture that is opium. But it doesn't really matter - it's all in the dose.

As for switching - this is what is done in medical settings when there is need for chronic opiate administrations.

"Smokers and swallowers choose fine opium over high grade heroin any day of the week!"

No. Tastes differ - I have heard of many that prefer hydrocodone to either, for example. I thought opium wasn't available on the US streets, anyhow? Occasionally black-tar heroin will be labeled as 'opium'.

"Most people who don't set specific dates end up consuming increasingly often. Opium wants to be taken more and more often"

I agree that setting strict limits is essential, and if one encounters tolerance despite that measure, immediately tapering down and discontinuing. However, I have recently learned of the extremely important role of "associative tolerance" in the development of opiate addiction. In fact, associative tolerance is the dominant factor in long dosing intervals, whereas nos-associative tolerance (the "regular" kind) in short intervals. Hence my suggestion to variegate use - if using only on weekends, switch between Friday and Saturday. Many other variations should be used. The point being - never make the use any kind of ritual with associated constants. By this reasoning, oral ingestion is much prefered to smoking (and of course, to intravenous or intramuscular injection), since significantly more time lapses until reinforcing effects.
The reasoning: read about associative learning. For a striking example, Siegel's trials on rats. Study the epidemiological data of heroin use among soldiers serving in Vietnam. Realize that the only explanation for that data is the change of setting. Likewise for hospital settings.
(the information is easily available through Pubmed and Google)

Just to make clear: I am not downplaying the dangers of opiate addiction, and do not suggest anyone rouse a slumbering dragon for a game of tag. But I do believe being informed is our duty, as individuals and as social beings.


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Re: Opium - dosing interval to ensure no tolerance? [Re: stvip]
    #4061768 - 04/16/05 07:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There are a lot of Opioids in Schedule 1:

Quote:

SCHEDULE 1 Opiates and opioids
.
(1) Acetyl-alpha-methylfentanyl (N-[1-(1-methyl-2-phenethyl)-4-piperidinyl]-N-phenylacetamide) 9815
(2) Acetylmethadol 9601
(3) Allylprodine 9602
(4) Alphacetylmethadol (except levo-alphacetylmethadol also known as levo-alpha-acetylmethadol, levomethadyl acetate, or LAAM) 9603
(5) Alphameprodine 9604
(6) Alphamethadol 9605
(7) Alpha-methylfentanyl (N-[1-(alpha-methyl-beta-phenyl)ethyl-4-piperidyl] propionanilide; 1-(1-methyl-2-phenylethyl)-4-(N-propanilido) piperidine) 9814
(8) Alpha-methylthiofentanyl (N-[1-methyl-2-(2-thienyl)ethyl-4-piperidinyl]-N-phenylpropanamide) 9832
(9) Benzethidine 9606
(10) Betacetylmethadol 9607
(11) Beta-hydroxyfentanyl (N-[1-(2-hydroxy-2-phenethyl)-4-piperidinyl]-N-phenylpropanamide) 9830
(12) Beta-hydroxy-3-methylfentanyl (other name: N-[1-(2-hydroxy-2-phenethyl)-3-methyl-4-piperidinyl]-N-phenylpropanamide 9831
(13) Betameprodine 9608
(14) Betamethadol 9609
(15) Betaprodine 9611
(16) Clonitazene 9612
(17) Dextromoramide 9613
(18) Diampromide 9615
(19) Diethylthiambutene 9616
(20) Difenoxin 9168
(21) Dimenoxadol 9617
(22) Dimepheptanol 9618
(23) Dimethylthiambutene 9619
(24) Dioxaphetyl butyrate 9621
(25) Dipipanone 9622
(26) Ethylmethylthiambutene 9623
(27) Etonitazene 9624
(28) Etoxeridine 9625
(29) Furethidine 9626
(30) Hydroxypethidine 9627
(31) Ketobemidone 9628
(32) Levomoramide 9629
(33) Levophenacylmorphan 9631
(34) 3-Methylfentanyl (N-[3-methyl-1-(2-phenylethyl)-4-piperidyl]-N-phenylpropanamide) 9813
(35) 3-methylthiofentanyl (N-[(3-methyl-1-(2-thienyl)ethyl-4-piperidinyl]-N-phenylpropanamide) 9833
(36) Morpheridine 9632
(37) MPPP (1-methyl-4-phenyl-4-propionoxypiperidine) 9661
(38) Noracymethadol 9633
(39) Norlevorphanol 9634
(40) Normethadone 9635
(41) Norpipanone 9636
(42) Para-fluorofentanyl (N-(4-fluorophenyl)-N-[1-(2-phenethyl)-4-piperidinyl] propanamide 9812
(43) PEPAP (1-(-2-phenethyl)-4-phenyl-4-acetoxypiperidine 9663
(44) Phenadoxone 9637
(45) Phenampromide 9638
(46) Phenomorphan 9647
(47) Phenoperidine 9641
(48) Piritramide 9642
(49) Proheptazine 9643
(50) Properidine 9644
(51) Propiram 9649
(52) Racemoramide 9645
(53) Thiofentanyl (N-phenyl-N-[1-(2-thienyl)ethyl-4-piperidinyl]-propanamide 9835
(54) Tilidine 9750
(55) Trimeperidine 9646

(1) Acetorphine 9319
(2) Acetyldihydrocodeine 9051
(3) Benzylmorphine 9052
(4) Codeine methylbromide 9070
(5) Codeine-N-Oxide 9053
(6) Cyprenorphine 9054
(7) Desomorphine 9055
(8) Dihydromorphine 9145
(9) Drotebanol 9335
(10) Etorphine (except hydrochloride salt) 9056
(11) Heroin 9200
(12) Hydromorphinol 9301
(13) Methyldesorphine 9302
(14) Methyldihydromorphine 9304
(15) Morphine methylbromide 9305
(16) Morphine methylsulfonate 9306
(17) Morphine-N-Oxide 9307
(18) Myrophine 9308
(19) Nicocodeine 9309
(20) Nicomorphine 9312
(21) Normorphine 9313
(22) Pholcodine 9314
(23) Thebacon 9315





That's a swarm. Nearly all of these were invented in one of the greatest quests of Pharmacology: To invent an opioid that is less addictive and less restricvted by tolerance than Morphine. And they failed, and every one of these is highly addictive.

Quote:

"The empire of China has been almost brought to it's knees by Opium"
.
Not really. It was just the first colossal failure of drug prohibition.
.
"and wars have been fought over it."
.
Not by addicted users - by British Empire's forces, which refused to accept China's trading ban. Similar wars have been fought over spices, and such, during incredibly bloody European world domination (which, of course, included the genocide of the native americans).




Can you imagine the horror of the Emperor of China to see over 10% of his empire addicted to opium? He saw the same menace in Opium as the Americans and Europeans did. If Opium were mere nutmeg he would've laid off of persecution once it was produced domestically and required no more imports.

Quote:

And even if it were true - are you really going to push the point of the US drug laws being logical and useful? Marijuana in Schedule I, the scourge of amphetamine in Schedule II, murderous tobacco and alcohol unrestricted to adults?




I'm not at all saying that US laws are logical and useful. Please read more of my stuff to see where I'm coming from. The US drug laws are a cramped and detrimental legal construction in response to a very real problem, mostly opioid addiction, that was meant to protect the people but now has become as great an evil as the addiction it was supposed to fight. I do agree however that Opium balls should not be sold in vending machines, which would be done if no control was put on it.
Hippies in the 1960s even advocated selling LSD in vending machines.

Amphetamines and Morphine are Schedule II because of their widespread use in medicine and hospitals. Since Morphine (and all true opiates) derive from Opium it had to be schedule II too. Following the logic of the schedules they should be Schedule I.
Cannabis is hysterically misclassified, I think anyone sane and informed agrees to that.

Quote:

"And.. switch opiates? to what? Opium stands apart from all Opiates."
.
Not really. It's mostly morphine, with a few other alkaloids mostly responsible for non-opiate body effects. The codeine is negligible in amount, papaverine and thebaine are not opioids, noscapine's role is unknown, but doesn't seem to have much effect, meconate is irrelevant.




Yes, really. If you go through old pharmacopeias you see that internationally oral Opium was dosed half as high as Morphine and that it was considered to be double as potent as the Morphine it derives from. A long-standing popular medicine was Pantopon, which contained the salts of the major opium alkaloids in "opium-like" percentages because *the consensus was that Opium was superior to Morphine*. Another such medicine was Narcophine. It was the Meconate salt of one molecule of Morphine and one of Noscapine. It was more potent than the Morphine it contained. Meconic acid was known to enhance Morphine action (beyond salt formation) and Opium heated above 70'C was considered inferior, partly because the Meconate had decomposed which altered the Opium's properties. All these preparations disappeared in the "single pure drug" craze of the 20th century. Nowadays combination pills are being made for the medical cocktails used to combat conditions as unrelated as cardiac disorders and AIDS.

Quote:

"Heroin? That isn't a switch, you must know that! Opium is incomparable to "opiates". That's a bigger difference than comparing a fine Pomerol wine with a bottle of distilled grain alcohol."
.
I believe the analogy is reversed - it's pure morphine which is like distilled alcohol from the mixture that is opium



That's precisely what I said, actually.

You seem to assume I'm an American who defends US drug laws.
On the contrary I'm from Holland and very much opposed to the WoD.
If I were a prohibitionist I wouldn't pour so many hours into this community by performing moderator duties.

I am however of the conviction that the unrealistic attitude of the antidrug people is matched by the unrealistic attitude of the drug people.

I consider the War on Drugs to be one of the greatest worldwide tragedies ongoing today but I am in favor of some degree of control, like I believe you are.

If you felt assaulted by my direct style then accept my apologies even when I bore no antagonistic feelings.

We have our overdosers here and our addicts. We have our dead. At the moment the management is faced by another possible medical situation. So there's theory and practice.

Quote:

Just to make clear: I am not downplaying the dangers of opiate addiction, and do not suggest anyone rouse a slumbering dragon for a game of tag. But I do believe being informed is our duty, as individuals and as social beings.




I know you are all for getting informed and spreading the knowledge. This is a good thing and one of the reasons the Shroomery exists: to prevent the spread of dangerous misinformation.
I can see we differ of opinion on some points (though perhaps less than we think) but be aware that if you post inmformedly people will look to you for guidance even if you don't want that.
Therefore I say "First Do No Harm" and so it's good you also voiced concern about the dangers of Opioids.


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