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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Materialism
    #4037608 - 04/10/05 05:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I constantly see posts geared towards extreme non-materialsm. I will agree that materialism that has been allowed to go too far is misguided, gross and aesthetically unpleasing. It can also lead to bad places as far as morality is concerned. I also propose that rampant non-materialism is just as horrible. It is gross materialism's sick, little, twisted brother. Just as ego-loss is merely the expression of egotism, non-materialism is just another form of materialism ...obsession with material objects...except in this case it is obsessing about the lack of material objects. I am promoting the idea that materialsm is natural. The physical is the base upon which our whole reality rests. One should never let materialism distract us from our sense of moral rightness, but neither is it healthy to totally reject it.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Materialism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4037663 - 04/10/05 05:45 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The third quote in my sig seems relevant here.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Materialism [Re: cb9fl]
    #4037742 - 04/10/05 06:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, what type of materialism you are referring to should be stated. By principal of charity, I gather you are referring to the social theory of materialism. Whether or not it is a social theory, I do not know. But I do think that it has little to do with the philosophical theory of materialism.

I think that the social theory of materialism can be attributed to capitalism. Capitalism results in an overflow of human "stuff." Most of this stuff is junk; completely useless outside of hedonistic tendencies. It is because there is so much stuff that we begin to "worship" it. We become more concerned with owning an item for the sake of owning the matter, and not concerned with owning an item for what it represents, and basically the ideas. Capitalism encourages social materialism: if we are not obsessed over little items, then who is going to buy the items and fund our nation?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Materialism [Re: Darcho]
    #4037769 - 04/10/05 06:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I was not refering to the political aspects...but the spiritual. I should have clarified.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Materialism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4037829 - 04/10/05 06:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, so in that case you are referring to the philosophical concept of materialism.

But what is truely material?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Materialism [Re: Darcho]
    #4037858 - 04/10/05 06:40 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

occupies space
:confused: :thumbup:


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Materialism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4037930 - 04/10/05 07:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)



These photos illustrate our house. Real estate. 
Materialism > Material > Matter > Mater [Mother, as in Mother Earth or the Great Mother] > Matrix [of space-time].
I am rooted to this real estate by choice. I received it [Earth, Water, Air, Fire] by prayer [Spirit]. It is the Sphere of Malkuth - Kingdom, on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. The Physical Plane.

On the next Sphere up, Yesod, lies the Astral Plane. My astral colors are (1) green and (2) brown, evident in the photos, and also our bedroom is in these colors. Yesod - Foundation, the genitals on the cosmic human. Together, these two Spheres comprise The First World. The Second World is separated by the Veil called Paroketh. It is the World of Soul, and is not visible in itself, but it is known by the Love expressed by the inhabitants of this physical-astral domain (not the little shadowy astral creatures that we sometimes see scurry on the floor, but the human ones :heart:).

I work hard to maintain this house and property. It is modest by Miami standards, but we like this space very much. The inside of the house, like the 'inside' of ourselves is perhaps more interesting than our outsides. We are modest, it is modest. It manifests on the Physical Plane some realities from the higher Planes. Its materiality, like our bodies, is subject to physical entropy, but its materiality does not hinder or impede our spirituality. Being homeless would not enhance our spirituality but would cloak us in the denser survival-based Physical Plane. Therefore, the materiality of our Physical abode is commensurate with our ability to maintain it and transcend it. In other words, we are not slaves to the First World. We know many people who work as slaves to maintain a level of material existence that virtually worships the First World. It is a slavery to social status, to expensive isolation from people of lesser social-economic status, to a false identity based on appearances where more and bigger is always better, even if the lifestyle is hollow, mundane and meaningless. Our house is also our home (how did 'om' get into our word home anyway?:)). It is the Root Center. It is Malkuth the Kingdom. It is the physical abode of our physical bodies. It is invested with pure meaning and Spirit, which flows into us and through us into it. We are materialistic inasmuch as we are embodied beings, but we are not materialistic inasmuch as we Know that our embodiedness is just the external manifestation of our true being.

Peace.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Materialism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4037997 - 04/10/05 07:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting post. But does it even mean anything? It seems as if you need to justify your material belongings, and to do so, you poetically express yourself in such a way that may be spiritual, but not rational.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Materialism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4038018 - 04/10/05 07:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Nice house. How's Miami real estate now? Sarasota/Bradenton had the highest increase of the state last year, 41%. The median home is now $289,000. The cost of living is ridiculous.

Everyone has their own opinion and I would find it hard to believe that there is some inherent sense of morality or right and wrong. However my rational for opposing materialism is simple. The only thing I can rely on and consistently exsert authority over is myself including my thoughts and ideas, until I lose consciousness and die. Thus I find the only thing worth exserting energy into is myself. I could easily lose an object and is crying about it really worthwhile? If I spend time increasing my knowledge, working on enlightenment and generally enhancing myself then I am working on something that will be with me as long as I'm alive.

What constitutes materialism to me is the idea that material objects bring happiness. Logically that is an exercises in futility. If a person believes that more objects will make them happier they will be continually unhappy. No matter what they have they will believe that more will make them happier thus they will be unhappy with what they currently have.

Having an object and enjoying it, at least to me, doesn't make a person materialistic. Rather the idea that more material objects make a person happier is what I consider materialism. And that as I explained above is an exercise in futility.

Quote:

2 entries found for materialistic.
ma?te?ri?al?ism Audio pronunciation of "materialistic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-t?r--lzm)
n.

1. Philosophy. The theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena.
2. The theory or attitude that physical well-being and worldly possessions constitute the greatest good and highest value in life.
3. A great or excessive regard for worldly concerns.







Edit: The sentence, "Thus I find the only thing worth exserting energy into is myself." doesn't propertly express my thoughts. I'm willing to exsert energy cleaning my house or washing clothes but I will not become emotionally attached to material objects.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Edited by cb9fl (04/10/05 07:43 PM)


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Materialism [Re: cb9fl]
    #4038062 - 04/10/05 07:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Whenever I lose myself, I start fingering on small objects with no meaning.

Wham! Back again.


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Materialism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4038076 - 04/10/05 07:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That is the point that I was more or less trying to make, but with much less eloquence. Nice job on the house. I aspire to have such a dwelling myself. I think your spiritual condition is to some extent determined by the things you surround yourself with....your input if you will.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Materialism [Re: Darcho]
    #4038200 - 04/10/05 08:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yes...you are quite right, an 'apologia' as such justifications were called in early theological debates, and succinct I might add. It is, however, completely rational. Materiality has long been set against spirituality. It seems to me that Kabbalistic thought has an edge over its cousin Gnosticism in that it seeks to incorporate the physical world, while at the same time transcending it, unike the Gnostic seeks to flee the world.

So, the meaning is multiple. Like the body-house relationship, the ego-egoless relationship is such that one requires a healthy, intact ego in order to transcend the ego. Both require a stable, solid foundation upon which to construct a 'launch-pad' to higher worlds. A solid material base, like the cubic first level of a Tibetan Buddhist stupa, is part of a logic system that is both rational and transrational, since it is a system based on a transcendental model. There is btw, a great difference between the incorporation of necessary materialism and 'conspicuous consumerism' of which I am not in favor of.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Materialism [Re: cb9fl]
    #4038268 - 04/10/05 08:47 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

We both know that objects themselves and their possession is not causative of happiness in any real sense (Buddhist, Stoic, etc.). It constitutes a real addiction for many people - short-lived childish rushes. I am a Moonchild, born under the sign of Cancer (I hate that word). I am like the crab, who becomes too attached to people, places and things via the symbolic pinchers. I work on the severance of attachment continually, yet, I have become too detached at times in my past. Still, I am introverted, and I am more like the Hermit Crab now, with much smaller pinchers and inordinate attachments. Being a Westerner however, allows me controlled attachments rather than the annihilation of all attachments in an Eastern sense of renunciation and poverty. Renunciation, or the failure even to acquire things, and poverty all by themselves do not constitute a spiritual condition. They tend to exaggerate desires and needs - just the opposite effect.

The 'things' which bring childlike glee rather than childish rushes are usually inexpensive objects of art, or a new book. My last car lasted 14 years. I've only had 5 cars since 1972. This is my first and only house. I wear blue jeans and cotton shirts. I have one pair of decent shoes - brown Clarks. The interior of the house is appreciated only by seekers such as those who spend time on the Shroomery S&P - a magickal bedroom, an Eastern meditation room, a Gothic living room, a library of books that worldly folk ignore. It's like a collection of various worthless shards of colored glass. Arrange them with consciousness and you have a wonderful stained glass window. Without the consciousness, you have nothing.

Peace.

BTW, The house was purchased for 130K in 1996. GOD answered my prayer for something an educator could afford. It is now worth 350-400K, but that means nothing. In Florida I would have to spend upwards of 500K to find something comparable. It's insane and absurd. My mortgage minus property taxes was $5.75/month more than the one bedroom apartment I rented for 4 years! I work 3.2 miles from home. I'm not going anywhere.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Materialism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4038282 - 04/10/05 08:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

its not how much something is worth that matters, its how much it costs to replace!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Materialism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4038350 - 04/10/05 09:13 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I learned from Yoga philosophy that 'the inner projects the outer.' This can mean different things simultaneously, like the 'soul' constellates a type of body - much perhaps like Sheldon's Constitutional Psychology. The pure Mesomorph, Endomorph or Ectomorph have purely corresponding temperaments. Of course there are many combinations, but the temperament still corresponds in measure to the type of body type. Intensely contemplative intellectuals are more likely to be of linear, slender build than a Dom Deluise or an Arnold Swartzeneggar - Endomorph and Mesomorph respectively.

Some metaphysically-minded individuals assert that we all choose our parents from 'the Bardo' because we have insight as to what we need to work on in the next birth, and our choice of parents may determine that (unless we are liberated and free of further instruction in existence).

I have believed in such spiritual principles as 'Seek first the Kingdom of GOD and its righteousness and all things will be added unto you,' which I interpreted as working on the 'inner man' and whether through a karmic mechanism through which GOD operates, or by a more personal Divine intervention, one actually is given what one needs. Or again, as Solomon asked for Wisdom and he was given Wisdom but also hundreds of wives, concubines, wealth, etc. I did not ask for hundreds of concubines (well, maybe the Barbi Twins :smile:), but the midrashic colorful story certainly does illustrate the principle.

Does any of this come close to answering your question?

Anyway, material objects that we are fortunate enough to be 'given' are projections of our psyches that serve to mirror or remind us of the most important spiritual themes in our lives. It is not all serious of course: the illuminated fresco of Dionysus giving wine to Eros shows (tongue-in-cheek) drugs and sex in our home - like we don't drink wine [as I type!!!] and later tumble into bed with m'Lady! A statue of Hestia sits next to the stove (Hearth) while Aphrodite stands on my Lady's vanity table.  There are more sacred mysteries represented of course, but you get the point I trust.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Materialism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4038367 - 04/10/05 09:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Anyway, I believe material objects that we are fortunate enough to be 'given' are projections of our psyches that serve to mirror or remind us of the most important spiritual themes in our lives.[/i']


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Materialism [Re: fresh313]
    #4038450 - 04/10/05 09:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You had to remind me that I have to increase coverage on my home-owner's insurance?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Materialism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4038483 - 04/10/05 09:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

They must rape you on hurricane insurance.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Materialism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4038528 - 04/10/05 10:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, when I said "your input" I was refering to your physical surroundings being your input...like the input to a computer.(I'm a computer nerd) I see how you read it as asking your input, which I did not, BUT I enjoyed your reply nevertheless. I will word myself better in the future, but I did enjoy your post. I do take issue with one point you make:

" Intensely contemplative intellectuals are more likely to be of linear, slender build than a Dom Deluise or an Arnold Swartzeneggar"

I am so introverted as to be nearly autistic (diagnosed with Asperger's) in my behavior, I can lose myself in coding as one who drowns in the sea, and I consider myself to be overly contemplative, but I am a large (not really fat though...anymore) man 6'4" and 240 lbs. I have always thought of slender people as being less contemplative and more outgoing. I think there are many factors to consider. Just had to comment on that one.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Materialism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4038588 - 04/10/05 10:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have unfortunately(fortunately??) with some differences come to an agreement on this possible course of action.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3866828/page//fpart/1/vc/1

Quote:

You own the building. You are proprietor of land which was not created by human labor, and thus does not rightfully belong to anyone. And if you were paying a true land value tax, instead of property tax, you would only be paying the income generated by the land value. Since you have nothing to do with the earning this income, it is not rightfully yours. I understand why it might not make complete sense that it should go to the government, but if the government is going to tax, it would be best to tax unearned income.




--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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