Home | Community | Message Board


Phytoextractum
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Hemp

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
The Politics of Churlishness
    #4037420 - 04/10/05 04:36 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

This article was written by Martin Peretz, editor-in-chief and chairman of the leftist publication "The New Republic". It is an interesting take on the left, from the left.

The Politics of Churlishness
By Martin Peretz

George W. Bush's single-minded devotion to democracy in the Middle East is actually paying dividends. So why won't liberals admit it?

If George W. Bush were to discover a cure for cancer, his critics would denounce him for having done it unilaterally, without adequate consultation, with a crude disregard for the sensibilities of others. He pursued his goal obstinately, they would say, without filtering his thoughts through the medical research establishment. And he didn't share his research with competing labs and thus caused resentment among other scientists who didn't have the resources or the bold ? perhaps even somewhat reckless ? instincts to pursue the task as he did. And he completely ignored the World Health Organization, showing his contempt for international institutions. Anyway, a cure for cancer is all fine and nice, but what about aids?

No, the president has not discovered a cure for cancer. But there is a pathology, a historical pathology, that he has attacked with unprecedented vigor and with unprecedented success. I refer, of course, to the political culture of the Middle East, which the president may actually have changed. And he has accomplished this genuinely momentous transformation in ways that virtually the entire foreign affairs clerisy ? the cold-blooded Brent Scowcroft realist Republicans and almost all the Democrats ? never thought possible. Or, perhaps, in ways some of them thought positively undesirable. Bush, it now seems safe to say, is one of the great surprises in modern U.S. history. Nothing about his past suggested that he harbored these ideals nor the qualities of character required for their realization. Right up to the moment Bush became president, I was convinced that his mind, at least on matters Levantine, belonged to his father and to James Baker III, whose worldview seemed to be defined by the pecuniary prejudice of oil and Texas: Keep the ruling Arabs happy. But I was wrong, and, in light of what has already been achieved in the Middle East, I am glad to say so. Most American liberals, alas, enjoy no similar gladness. They are not exactly pleased by the positive results of Bush's campaign in the Middle East. They deny and resent and begrudge and snipe. They are trapped in the politics of churlishness.

The achievements of Bush's foreign policy abroad represent a revolution in the foreign policy culture at home. The traditional Republican mentality that was so perfectly and meanly represented by Bush p?re and Baker precluded the United States from pressing the Arabs about reform ? about anything ? for decades. Not Iraq about its tyranny and its record of genocide, not Syria about its military occupation of Lebanon and its own brutal Baathist dictatorship, not Egypt about loosening the crippling bonds of a statist economy and an authoritarian political system, not Saudi Arabia about its championing of the Wahhabi extremism that made its own country so desiccated and the world so dangerous, and certainly not the Palestinians about the fantasy that they had won all the wars that they had actually lost and were therefore entitled to the full rewards due them from their victories. This was the state of U.S.-Arab relations in 2001: The United States was actually more frightened of the Arabs than they were of us. The extraordinary report of the 9/11 Commission about the delinquent reactions to the decade-long lead-up to the catastrophe of September 11 only confirms this impression of official U.S. pusillanimity.

The Clinton administration seized on every possible excuse ? from the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, right through the atrocities in Kenya and Tanzania, to the attack on the USS Cole ? not to respond meaningfully to Osama bin Laden. This aggressively dilatory approach was set early on, when Bill Clinton's first secretary of state, dead-man-walking Warren Christopher, proposed that a special bureau be set up to deal with drugs, crime, and terrorism in a single office, as if terrorism is a problem for policemen and not for strategists. The 9/11 Commission Report records that only congressional opposition aborted Christopher's concoction. Attorney General Janet Reno always worried about retaliation against any moves by the United States; Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, preoccupied with her "push for a peace agreement between the Palestinians and Israelis," was concerned that military strikes against the bin Laden operations in Afghanistan would strengthen the Taliban; National Security Adviser Sandy Berger fretted that a shoot-out might be seen as an assassination, and, always the trade lawyer, he consistently held out hope that some sort of carrot would turn the Taliban against bin Laden; General Anthony Zinni was more concerned about human rights abuses by the Taliban than by its hospitality to Al Qaeda and worried also that a mosque might be damaged in the course of bombing operations; Pentagon officials warned that a missile aimed at bin Laden might kill a visiting Emirati prince instead (but why was a UAE prince hanging out with bin Laden anyway?); and CIA Director George Tenet had so many objections to decisive action that it would be nearly impossible to enumerate them.

Clinton, it is true, resolved to eliminate bin Laden, but soon he eliminated his desire to eliminate him. The Clinton administration's true desire was to arrest bin Laden, to indict him, and to put him on trial ? to "bring him to justice," as these men and women pompously exhorted each other. Except Berger also feared that bin Laden would be acquitted in a U.S. court of law. CIA personnel trying to cut a deal with the Northern Alliance to capture bin Laden warned that, if the Afghan "tribals" ? that's the orientalism of liberals ? did not bring him in alive but, heaven forbid, actually killed him, they would not be paid for their labors. The charismatic leader of the Afghan opposition and our best contact with it, Ahmed Shah Massoud, who was assassinated two days before September 11, thought he was dealing with madmen.

The new Bush presidency also found it hard to wrap its hands around the Al Qaeda phenomenon and preferred to focus instead on Star Wars redivivus ? until, of course, a catastrophe in Lower Manhattan concentrated its mind. What the Bush administration gradually came to realize was that fighting the Muslim terrorist international could not be done in a vacuum. If the Islamic and Arab orbits were to continue to revolve around sanguinary tyrannies, there would be no popular basis in civil society to rob the cult of suicidal murder of its prestige. So, rather than being a distraction from the struggle against the armed rage suffusing these at once taut and eruptive polities, confronting their governments was actually intrinsic to that struggle. The Bush administration recognized that removing the effect means removing the cause. The 9/11 Commission seems to have grasped this, too, at least in its citations of Richard Clarke's assertion that bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, Al Qaeda and the Iraqi Baath could be natural allies.



istory has never traveled in the Middle East as fast as it has during the last two years. In this place where time seems to have stopped, time has suddenly accelerated. It may be true (more likely, it is not) that a deep yearning for democracy has been latent throughout the region for a long time. There certainly was a basis in reality for skepticism about the Arabs' hospitability to the opening of their societies. Whatever the proper historical and cultural analysis of the past, however, the fact is that democracy did not begin even to breathe until the small coalition of Western nations led by the United States destroyed the most ruthless dictatorship in the area.

Democracy in Mesopotamia? A fantasy, surely. But not quite. Iraq was, despite its unbelievably bloody history, a rather sophisticated place. During the nineteenth century, many Baghdadis went abroad to study. Modern nationalism sank some roots. Baghdad itself had a plurality of Jews, learned and mercantile, until they fled to the new state of Israel. An ancient minority of Christians survived into the age of Sunni pogroms and survives ? though in lesser numbers ? still. The Kurds grew relatively tolerant in the areas they dominated. And the majority Shia, though viciously persecuted from the founding of the Iraqi state after World War I ? with the not-so-passive consent of the British colonials ? and condemned to near-genocide by Saddam's revolutionary republic, have generally maintained the restraint that piety sometimes allows. After a year and a half of nearly daily Sunni bloodletting among them, the Shia have not wreaked the vengeance they surely could and, equally as surely, some of them long to take.

The U.S. liberation-occupation has now tried to cobble together these diverging Iraqis into the beginnings of a democratic regime. Wonder of wonders, these estranged cousins have shown some talent in the art of compromise; and trying to make this polity work is hardly an effort undertaken without courage. The judge who was killed with his son outside his home on his way to work at the tribunal that will try Saddam knew that danger stalked him, and so did the rest of the victims of Sunni bloodlust. This bloodlust evokes an unmistakable but macabre schadenfreude among many critics of the war, who want nothing of history except to be proved right. It is as if suicide bombings and other sorts of helter-skelter murder were a just judgment on the wrongdoings ? yes, there have been wrongdoings, some of them really disgusting ? of the Bush administration. And, even if ridding western Asia of Saddam is reluctantly accepted as justified, what blogger couldn't have accomplished what came after more deftly?

In any case, this churlish orthodoxy tells us that the Sunnis need to be enticed into the political game lest it be deemed illegitimate. In this scenario, it is the murderers who withhold or bestow moral authority. John F. Burns, the defiantly honest New York Times journalist in Baghdad, who has consistently reported the ambiguous and truly tangled realities of the war, now sees the Baathist and Sunni warriors in retreat, if not actually beaten. What will probably happen in Iraq is a version of what endured for decades in Lebanon: a representative government rooted in sect ? argumentative, perhaps even corrupt, but functioning. Lebanon was never perfect, but it worked reasonably well, until the aggressive Palestinian guests took to commanding Shia turf to establish a "state within a state." (This was a phenomenon that the nimble Thomas L. Friedman did not much report on in the first leg of his journey From Beirut to Jerusalem, confiding that fear for his life and livelihood kept him from deviating too far from the Palestinian story as they wanted it told. Eason Jordan avant la lettre.)

The fine fruits of the Bush administration's indifference to international opinion may be seen now in Lebanon, too. What is happening there is the most concrete intra-Arab consequence of the Iraq war. Nothing could be done in Lebanon without Syria's sanction, no government decision without the approval of Damascus, no business without a hefty Damascene percentage. Syrian troops and spies were everywhere. Lebanese of all sects and clans have been restive for years. But they lived in the fearful memory of their mad civil war, the civil war of the daily car bombs in the marketplace. Suddenly, the elections in Iraq, Bush's main achievement there, exhilarating and inspiring, sprung loose the psychological impediments that shackled the Lebanese to Syria. Even if the outcomes will not be exactly the same, this was Prague and Berlin at the end of the long subjugation to their neighbor to the east. More immediately, this was Kiev only a few months ago. The first mass protest against the Syrians and their satrap prime minister drew tens of thousands. Then there was the much larger crowd of pro-Syria Shia from the south, a disconcerting moment. But, after that, a multitude so huge that it defied counting, and so diverse. This was the true cedar revolution, a revolution of the young, for independence, for freedom from the failing but always brutal Damascus regime next door. Will Vladimir Putin be so stupid as to invest credit and arms in the stiff and callow son of Hafez Al Assad?



one of this happened by spontaneous generation. Yes, there were lucky breaks: Yasir Arafat died, Syria conspired somehow to have former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri assassinated. And yes, the new directions are young, and the autocratic-theocratic political culture of the Middle East is old, and it is once again too early to proclaim that the mission has been accomplished. As the ancient Israelite king observed, let he who girds his harness not boast as he who takes it off. But the mission is nonetheless real, and far along, and it is showing thrilling accomplishments. It is simply stupid, empirically and philosophically, to deny that all or any of this would have happened without the deeply unpopular but historically grand initiative of Bush. The hundreds of thousands of young people in Martyrs' Square knew that they had Bush's backing. The president seems even to have enticed Jacques Chirac into a more active policy toward Lebanon: For him, too, Syria had to go. If this satisfies Chirac's yearning for la gloire, so be it. (But it will not be so easy to maintain such alliances: Already, Security Council members are said to be working up plans to put the future of Lebanon under the protective care of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, when nothing in unifil's past ? nothing ? should provide confidence that it is able, or even disposed, to act decisively against Arab brutality.)

What is occurring in Saudi Arabia and Egypt is also heartening, if more than a bit tentative. Under pressure from the Bush administration, the Saudis have allowed the first local elections in the country's history: an election to bodies that cannot make big decisions, and an election limited to male voters, naturally. But infidels (that is, Shia) may also vote. By Saudi standards, this is the revolution of 1848. In Egypt, responding to the insistence of the Bush people, President Hosni Mubarak has allowed that he will permit opponents to run in the presidential elections against him. Mubarak has no chance of losing ... this time. Maybe, however, the son will not be the father's inevitable successor, and maybe the Arab custom of turning dictatorships into dynasties will also come to an end, at least in Cairo. And, in the brave figure of Ayman Nour, the world now has a hero of the anti-Mubarak forces to celebrate and to support. In both countries, to be sure, what we are seeing are the bare beginnings of a democratic process, the very bare beginnings. It will be years, maybe decades, before these become democratic polities. And there is always the chance ? as was the case in Algeria, once the jewel in the shabby crown of the "nonaligned" ? that the vox populi will vote wrong. In the Algerian instance, it had to vote wrong: The choice was between national fascists and pious fascists. Take your pick.



o the situation is certainly complex. But complexity is not a warrant for despair. The significant fact is that Bush's obsession with the democratization of the region is working. Have Democrats begun to wonder how it came to pass that this noble cause became the work of Republicans? They should wonder if they care to regain power. They should recall that Clinton (and the sanctimonious Jimmy Carter even more so) had absolutely no interest in trying to modify the harsh political character of the Arab world. What they aspired to do was to mollify the dictators ? to prefer the furthering of the peace process to the furthering of the conditions that make peace possible. The Democrats were the ones who were always elevating Arafat. He was at the very center of their road map. After he stalked out of a meeting room in Paris during cease-fire talks in late 2000, Albright actually ran in breathless pursuit to lure him back. It was the Democrats who perpetuated Arafat's demonic sway over the Palestinians, and it was the Democrats who sustained him among the other Arabs. And so the cause of Arab democracy was left for the Republicans to pursue. After September 11, the cause became a matter also of U.S. national security.

The great diversion from the real politics of the Arab countries, and from the prospect of political reform, was the Palestinian grievance against Israel. In the early years of their conflict with the Zionists, the Palestinians thought that these countries would fight their battles for them, at the negotiating table and on the battlefield, which they did. But what happened in reality was that the various Arabs exploited the Palestinians as pawns in their own ambitions to pick off pieces of Palestine for themselves. That is why there was no Palestinian state in the West Bank or Gaza after the armistice of 1949, as one might have expected from the Partition Plan of 1947. The West Bank was annexed to Jordan. Gaza was not annexed but administratively attached to Egypt. Syria's armies won no decisive battles against the Jews; otherwise, they also would have taken a piece of Palestine. In any event, until the Six Days War, the Palestinian groan against the Jews was focused on the very existence of Israel within narrow and perilous borders, without strategic depth, without old Jerusalem, without the West Bank, without Gaza.

And Arab governments deflected the ample internal plaints of their own peoples with mobilized hysteria against the Jews. Every domestic grievance was dispersed with rousing rhetoric against Israel. The sun of Gamal Abdel Nasser rose and set with Cairo's failures in its wars with Israel. Hatred of the Zionists levitated the Baath dictatorships of both Iraq and Syria. In the end, after five wars and two intifadas, the Palestinians still seethed. But it had all come to nothing. And, finally, the angel of death unilaterally attacked Arafat. Bush had had the good sense to pay no attention to him, despite the urgent imprecations of the usual apologists: the European Union, the United Nations, France, Russia, and the editorial page of the Times. Had Bush made even a single accommodation to Arafat, Arafat's way in the world would have been enshrined in Palestinian lore for yet another generation as the only way.

But Bush didn't, and Ariel Sharon didn't, either. Now that there is some real hope among both Israelis and Palestinians about the future, let us examine the reasons for it. The first is that Bush made no gestures to the hyperbolic fantasies of Palestinian politics. He gave them one dose of reality after another. The second is that he gave Israel the confidence that he would not trade its security for anything ? which means that Israel is now willing to cede much on its own. (Israeli dovishness for American hawkishness: This was always the only way.) The third is that Bush is holding Sharon to his commitments, and everyone who is at all rational on these issues now sees the Israeli prime minister as a man of his word and a man of history. After all, Sharon has broken with much of his own political party. Not for nothing is he now the designated assassination target of the Israeli hard right. Still, holding Sharon to his word also means holding Mahmoud Abbas to his. So far, the record is mixed. The serious shutting down of the terrorist militias has not yet begun, but the Palestinian Authority did run reasonably free local elections, and they were not accompanied by killing. It is true that Hamas won more of these races than makes either Sharon or Abbas comfortable, and its strength may even increase in the coming parliamentary voting. But this, too, is a part of the gamble of democracy; and, to the extent that the Palestinians are taking this gamble and following the newest fashion among the other Arabs, it is a tribute to the inked purple fingers of Iraq, which is to say, a tribute to Bush and his simplistic but effective trust in the polling place.

It has been heartening, in recent months, to watch some Democratic senators searching for ways out of the politics of churlishness. Some liberals appear to have understood that history is moving swiftly and in a good direction, and that history has no time for their old and mistaken suspicion of American power in the service of American values. One does not have to admire a lot about George W. Bush to admire what he has so far wrought. One need only be a thoughtful American with an interest in proliferating liberalism around the world. And, if liberals are unwilling to proliferate liberalism, then conservatives will. Rarely has there been a sweeter irony.

http://jewishworldreview.com/0405/peretz_2005_04_07.php3


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4037474 - 04/10/05 04:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

interesting interpretation of events to say the least...


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 22 days, 23 hours
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4040067 - 04/11/05 08:18 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

> If George W. Bush were to discover a cure for cancer, his critics would ...

Sorry, I have a hard time reading something that starts out with such a moronic statement. That is like saying, "If Seuss turned into God, ..." It is 100% out of the realm of posibilities. The thesis of the paper is building upon an assumption that will never happen... so why bother wasting time with it...

(... and before somebody chalks me up as a liberal, think again.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRetired
Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 635
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Seuss]
    #4040072 - 04/11/05 08:21 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i would read it but i cant focus on the screen for that long.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Seuss]
    #4040086 - 04/11/05 08:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> If George W. Bush were to discover a cure for cancer, his critics would ...

Sorry, I have a hard time reading something that starts out with such a moronic statement. That is like saying, "If Seuss turned into God, ..." It is 100% out of the realm of posibilities. The thesis of the paper is building upon an assumption that will never happen... so why bother wasting time with it...

(... and before somebody chalks me up as a liberal, think again.)




Soon as I read that going on any further seemed pointless......


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,376
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4040141 - 04/11/05 09:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If George W. Bush were to discover a cure for cancer

:lol:

If GW found a cure for cancer...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 10 months, 6 days
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Seuss]
    #4040221 - 04/11/05 10:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)


Sorry, I have a hard time reading something that starts out with such a moronic statement. That is like saying, "If Seuss turned into God, ..." It is 100% out of the realm of posibilities. The thesis of the paper is building upon an assumption that will never happen... so why bother wasting time with it...


No offense, but I think you completely missed the intent of that statement.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Seuss]
    #4040226 - 04/11/05 10:30 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> If George W. Bush were to discover a cure for cancer, his critics would ...

Sorry, I have a hard time reading something that starts out with such a moronic statement. That is like saying, "If Seuss turned into God, ..." It is 100% out of the realm of possibilities. The thesis of the paper is building upon an assumption that will never happen... so why bother wasting time with it...

(... and before somebody chalks me up as a liberal, think again.)





I don't think the thesis of the paper has anything to do with George Bush developing a cure for cancer. Its conclusions are not built on that assumption. I don't think that the writer thinks Bush's cancer cure is within the realm of possibility either. But alas, many people thought that democracy and freedom in the Middle East was "100% out of the realm of possibilities".

I think that he began with that little anecdote just to make a point that no matter what George Bush does it would be roundly denounced and criticized by a good number of his detractors.

I apologize for posting such a long article. One of the reasons that I found it interesting is that it came from the editor of The New Republic. They are hardly cheerleaders for George Bush over there.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,376
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4040234 - 04/11/05 10:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think that he began with that little anecdote just to make a point that no matter what George Bush does it would be roundly denounced and criticized by a good number of his detractors.

How is that ANY different than any other person in authority? If you're in the public spotlight, you are going to be critisized by someone for just about everything you do.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 22 days, 23 hours
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: trendal]
    #4040337 - 04/11/05 11:19 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I think that he began with that little anecdote just to make a point that no matter what George Bush does it would be roundly denounced and criticized by a good number of his detractors.




Then start out with something a little more apropos, such as: "Even if Bush were able to broker peace between Isread and the Arab world, people still ..."

That would be something highly unlikely, but still something that I could entertain as a possibility and would continue reading. The "cure for cancer" thing immediately made me think of stem cell research and how Bush has pushed his own religious and moral values upon the lives (and deaths) of almost every person on this planet. I am fairly certain this is the opposite of what the author intended with the statement.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4040370 - 04/11/05 11:28 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

George W. Bush's single-minded devotion to democracy in the Middle East is actually paying dividends. So why won't liberals admit it?





This is quite a bold statement to make without any qualification. Many would say it will be some time yet before we will know if this is actually true.

As for me, I said all along that it was likely that there may eventaully be benefits to the Iraqi people. What I didnt like was the fact that this was blatantly not the motivation for the invasion and this sort of lying which is almost a reflex action in the Bush and Blair governments could become very dangerous if left unchecked.

Its also amusing how this writer has forgotten that George actually had a single minded devotion to ridding Iraq of WMDs and any notions of democracy in Iraq were lucky by products of this. So how anyone can support a govenrment that have been proven to be so spectacularly wrong is beyond me.

Furthermore, with a simple analysis of the state of Geo-politics and GW's own business interests it is clear to see that the WMD arguement was just another layer of lies which covers up the main reasons for the invasion: control of oil and a means to enforce US policy over the rest of the middle east.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Seuss]
    #4040411 - 04/11/05 11:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Those who stopped reading two sentences into the essay because they didn't appreciate the point the author was making re churlishness have done themselves a disservice.

Despite it having been written by a Leftie, and an uber-Leftie at that (there are few publications out there more Leftist than the New Republic, I can assure you) I found the essay to be well worth reading. There are some pretty sharp observations in there. Having read some of Peretz's past rants against the Right and the American way in general, I can only imagine the gritting of teeth he went through while composing this piece. Must have hurt.

While I disagree with just about everything The New Republic prints, I do reluctantly have to give Peretz kudos for this particular effort. He won't keep it up, of course. His next essay will almost certainly be back to the standard America-slamming.


Phred


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4040442 - 04/11/05 11:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I wouldn't open the bottle of champagne just yet. We're still facing a lot of resistance in Iraq, and practically seem to have forgotten about Afghanistan(and Osama bin what's-his-name). It's far too early in the game to draw any conclusions about the long term impact of these foreign policy decisions, and anyone who does is just speculating.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Silversoul]
    #4040515 - 04/11/05 12:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think any of the regular posters here believe this is a done deal. There are still plenty of opportunities for derailment along the way.

But this is the biggest upset in the status quo of the Middle East in just about forever. I think it unlikely that with everything they've been through the Iraqis will allow themselves to be subjugated by totalitarians ever again. The eventual form of the state they design for themselves may not be perfect and may differ in significant ways from what you or I would choose given the opportunity, but the point is that they -- not some murderous thug who seized power through assassinating his way to the top -- will be the designers.

And you can bet your bottom dollar the totalitarians running Syria and Iran (to name but two) see the writing on the wall. They are not happy campers at the moment.



Phred


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4040616 - 04/11/05 12:41 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
interesting interpretation of events to say the least...




not considering the source...coming from a pro-israeli activist..its like thomas chong pontificating about industrial hemp...what makes it even more laughable is how it completely ignores the oil issues.. the loopy logic of "removing the cause by removing the effect".. and its pathetic attempt at sarcasm in trying conflate liberalism with the neocon agenda...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4041017 - 04/11/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"One does not have to admire a lot about George W. Bush to admire what he has so far wrought. One need only be a thoughtful American with an interest in proliferating liberalism around the world. And, if liberals are unwilling to proliferate liberalism, then conservatives will. Rarely has there been a sweeter irony."

liberals promote liberalism? hahahaha
they promote socialism.

and what the fuck does CHURLISHNESS mean?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemps

Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 21
Re: The Politics of Churlishness *DELETED* [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4041052 - 04/11/05 02:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by mps

Reason for deletion: old



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: mps]
    #4041894 - 04/11/05 06:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

^ that whole article sounds a bit churlish if you ask me...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 11 hours
Re: The Politics of Churlishness [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4042520 - 04/11/05 09:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If GW cured cancer he'd be blamed for overpopulation


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Amazon Shop for: Hemp

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Islam’s Torture of Lebanon Luddite 543 0 07/23/06 10:31 AM
by Luddite
* Lebanon bait and switch for Iraq? Alex213 664 4 07/24/06 04:04 AM
by RosettaStoned
* SFCHRON ..lebanon invasion planned a year before the fact...
( 1 2 all )
Annapurna1
2,076 25 07/25/06 03:01 PM
by lonestar2004
* Saudi Arabia calls on its nationals to leave Lebanon immediately lonestar2004 318 2 03/01/08 09:38 PM
by afoaf
* Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon
( 1 2 all )
Basilides 2,549 36 07/29/06 09:33 PM
by Vvellum
* War in Lebanon by July 15th (syria gives citizens in lebanon deadline) The_Red_Crayon 585 2 07/08/07 01:30 PM
by John Smith
* NATO belongs in Lebanon lonestar2004 1,276 9 07/26/06 06:53 PM
by lonestar2004
* Lebanon won't let Palestinians buy land wingnutx 509 5 10/16/03 07:15 AM
by Baby_Hitler

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,383 topic views. 2 members, 2 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Sporeworks
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.153 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 14 queries.