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OfflineLux
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Registered: 04/21/04
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Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Above words?
    #4033623 - 04/09/05 10:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

By proclaiming something beyond words, are we mearly giving up in developing a level of articulance adequate enough? I have a hard time expressing philosophical idea's in spanish because I am not as articulate in it as I am in english, does this mean to stop trying or to improve my spanish?

There is a belief that words cannot adequately express an experience, or even anything in reality if it were not for the experience with which we can relate to those words, most of the time anyhow. But what of articulate story tellers? What of written language? Reading a book or hearing a story one creates a dream-like projection of reality based on the descriptions, in effect creating an experience within the reader. So then is it truly impossible, or simply impossible at this point in our evolution of language and mental capabilities. Is this an evolution in the darwinism sense or something we can consciously within this life progress? If the latter, what is holding us back?


Edited by Lux (04/09/05 10:34 AM)


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OfflineShagshow
Sit on It

Registered: 12/23/04
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Re: Above words? [Re: Lux]
    #4033664 - 04/09/05 10:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Words often do a great job at capturing many experiences; yet most people who feel immense levels of emotions seem to feel no words can quite capture the essence of it all. Just as the word love may not justify the implication which arise from it; the four letters formed to make love are just a way of jerking your memory into a time when you experiences what we accept as love. It may incite horrible feelings, or ones of joy; the word is ambiguous in that sense. So in some ways, some articulate people posses the ability to paint a more vivid picture; its just that the picture for some really isn't paint-able (no idea if anyone will get what I'm saying with that.)..


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Above words? [Re: Lux]
    #4033666 - 04/09/05 10:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Lux, thank you for posting this, its a subject i have been thinking alot recently and i wanted to discuss about it here.


Its true that words cannot adequately express an experience, we can only use them to get as close to the real thing as possible, without really ever attaining it.

So you're talking about expression when you use it to describe a story or an experience, and although, like i said, this can never be fully perfectly expressed, it can try to get as close as possible and as long as it is understandable, that is what counts. Communication is never perfect but its always worth it.

But personally, i think that when we are talking about stuff that are "above words", the topic at hand is purely spiritual.
Like the shroom experience. You KNOW that the experience can only be described as "it"! Because its above words, its impossible for our limited human intellectuality to grasp.

Words are intellectual, they are only labels, but you cannot truely label what is above words!...

well, this is very hard for me to talk about because i'm not anything close to being a master of the english language. hopefully someone who is more articulate can try and take this subject a bit deeper. i'd be thankful for it.

Here's a nice starting point for all you contenders: are words an experience?


--------------------


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Above words? [Re: exclusive58]
    #4033787 - 04/09/05 11:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

here's an extract of something i posted before, concerning what makes the shroomery a "special" community:

"A trip is unlike any chess board round or 4x4 race, a trip is a consciousness altered experience, it is not bound to usual limitations of perception, it can bring new understanding, and often leaves you with a sense of having discovered something, of having something shown to you, and then suddenly when the trip ends the book closes, and you wonder if what you tried to read had any meaning, if it wasn't just a crazy illusion.

It is this experience that words cannot describe that we have in common. This is why i love this place, all the people i discuss with, well, they kinda "know", everyone here would tell you "ya man, i've been there, i know".

Its kinda like this; when people who have never tripped before try to read posts on S&P for example, most of the time they have no idea what is being said. That was how it was for me at least, i read here before i tripped, and i had no clue what were the topics about. Then i tripped and THEN i started to understand more and more stuff on here, I was like, "ahhhh, I get it".

This is because I actually experienced the ineffable experience, instead of trying to read about it.

So Shroomerites are "special" because they share something in common that is beyond words. We like to discuss about this alot, but all we could ever get to would only be different metaphors of the same thing, IT.


Good luck trying to find another community who's main topic of discussion is something that is undescribable
!"


--------------------


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Registered: 07/07/04
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Re: Above words? [Re: Lux]
    #4034088 - 04/09/05 01:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think there is definitely a limit to what words can express. The Ineffable is pure consciousness, pure experience. Perhaps everything can be explained in words, but there's a difference between explaining an experience and experiencing an experience. We can't take a static snap-shot of experience, we can't isolate one thing in particular because fundamentally everything's interconnected. Experience always leads somewhere. Description of an experience has trouble also conveying the lesson learnt from the more subjective and ineffable aspects of the experience. The person who undergoes the experience may not even him/herself fully consciously realize or understand the lesson.

When we explain things in words we chop things up. But we can explain their interconnectedness with words by describing the higher context the next level up. But ultimately we'll have to stop going up somewhere, we can't top the top context. If we describe every single level of things in words, then we have a massive amount of words. So perhaps we can describe the 'everything' side, but we cannot describe the 'nothing' side.

Or maybe we've already succeeded:

"Ineffable"


It's impossible to reach the root of symbolism when the means through which we embark on the pursuit in the first place are symbolic in nature. We must first move backwards, then forwards. That is, backwards *is* forwards.


Edited by the_phoenix (04/09/05 01:55 PM)


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: Above words? [Re: exclusive58]
    #4034337 - 04/09/05 03:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
here's an extract of something i posted before, concerning what makes the shroomery a "special" community:

"A trip is unlike any chess board round or 4x4 race, a trip is a consciousness altered experience, it is not bound to usual limitations of perception, it can bring new understanding, and often leaves you with a sense of having discovered something, of having something shown to you, and then suddenly when the trip ends the book closes, and you wonder if what you tried to read had any meaning, if it wasn't just a crazy illusion.

It is this experience that words cannot describe that we have in common. This is why i love this place, all the people i discuss with, well, they kinda "know", everyone here would tell you "ya man, i've been there, i know".

Its kinda like this; when people who have never tripped before try to read posts on S&P for example, most of the time they have no idea what is being said. That was how it was for me at least, i read here before i tripped, and i had no clue what were the topics about. Then i tripped and THEN i started to understand more and more stuff on here, I was like, "ahhhh, I get it".

This is because I actually experienced the ineffable experience, instead of trying to read about it.

So Shroomerites are "special" because they share something in common that is beyond words. We like to discuss about this alot, but all we could ever get to would only be different metaphors of the same thing, IT.


Good luck trying to find another community who's main topic of discussion is something that is undescribable
!"




:heart:

this kinda reminded me of the good old, "set it free" thread :wink:
thanks for sharing! ! !


edit, i just reread all of that thred its kinda relevant me think.. :smile:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3310768/page//fpart/5/vc/1


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (04/09/05 05:30 PM)


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Above words? [Re: Gomp]
    #4037488 - 04/10/05 04:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

bump


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
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Re: Above words? [Re: Lux]
    #4037502 - 04/10/05 05:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Above words? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4037563 - 04/10/05 05:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"for Chuang Tzu "all disputation starts from arbitrary acts of naming""
:thumbup:


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Offlineslaphappy
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Registered: 10/29/04
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Re: Above words? [Re: exclusive58]
    #4037983 - 04/10/05 07:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is it, mates...


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Above words? [Re: slaphappy]
    #4038147 - 04/10/05 08:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you think of words and language as the materials that we use to build a concept into something tangible,

then, ideally, any thought- or concept- or idea, can be 'built' using words.

Some concepts require less labor and material (i.e. language) to build, whereas other concepts can be extreamely costly to build, and therefore trying to explain them becomes an impractical undertaking.


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