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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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question on buddhism and death
    #4027617 - 04/07/05 07:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i'm trying to understand exactly what buddhism teaches about how one's death affects the next incarnation of their consciousness. my aunt had a friend who was a serious buddhist but he died of adisease (cancer i think it was) that altered his mind. apparently before dying he lost his focus and became delerious. doesn't buddhism teach that the state you die in is very important? if someone achieves a higher consciousness during some point of their life but then they lose it later on would they have been better off dying during the stage of higher consciousness? can enlightenment be lost if something is done to the brain of the person while they are alive or does it transcend all?


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OfflineKungFu_Shaman
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: Deviate]
    #4028317 - 04/07/05 10:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There has been much debate in both the Buddhist and secular world about that very subject. Is enlightenment permanent? Can it be lost? Can you get small flashes of enlightenment?

I have personally got different answers from different Buddhists. Certain Tibetan monks I have talked with say that enlightenment is permanent and unchanging while other Tibetan monks claim that enlightenment can be experienced, but one must continue to work hard to maintain that state of bliss.

Now onto the question of Karma and reincarnation. Since your aunt's friend became delerious or even may have suffered from dementia, that brings about different answers in different Buddhist cultures. Some Buddhists would argue that it was his own Karma which led to his disease and thus led to his delerious state of mind. Others may argue that even though he may have become delerious, he still may have maintained a higher state of consciousness (though not enlightenment imparticular).

Other than that, I can't really answer much more according to what information you've provided. Peace out, I'll try to answer any other questions you have about all this if you post them...


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Feel the wrath of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: KungFu_Shaman]
    #4029339 - 04/08/05 02:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

well karma is another thing that confuses me. are theyre specifc things which produce good and bad karma or is karma simply what happens? for example a friend told me selling drugs was bad karma but lets you say you sell someone some LSD and it changes their life for the better but you sell another person some LSD and he has a horrible trip and it turns him into a paranoid wreck for a long time. do you get different karma based on those 2 situations? what about if the guy who had the good effect from the LSD then decides to give LSD to 10 other people and they have bad effects, do you get their karma because you are what initially lead him to take that action? could murdering someone ever result in good karma?


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OfflinePowerTrip
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: Deviate]
    #4029404 - 04/08/05 03:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Your karma is the result of your intentions and not the outcome of your actions. I think some people just say that selling drugs is bad karma just because there are laws against it. Breaking the law is not necessarily bad karma.


--------------------
I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn
and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice
cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life


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OfflinePed
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: PowerTrip]
    #4030066 - 04/08/05 10:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>> Certain Tibetan monks I have talked with say that enlightenment is permanent and unchanging while other Tibetan monks claim that enlightenment can be experienced, but one must continue to work hard to maintain that state of bliss.

Full enlightenment is an irreversible state, but experiences of enlightenment can be achieved during practices of highest yoga tantra. The primary obstacle to enlightenment are the two obstructions: delusion obstructions, which are actual potentials in the mind for wrong views, and obstructions to omniscience, which are the impressions left on the mind by those potentials. In the final stages of the path, our karma is very pure, it is easy to attain an experience of enlightenment whilst in the vajra posture free from distractions. However, when we arise from meditation, many distractions appear and the remaining obstructions within our mental continuum will manifest again. With time and with repeated effort, those obstructions can be purified and full enlightenment can be obtained.


>> my aunt had a friend who was a serious buddhist but he died of adisease (cancer i think it was) that altered his mind. apparently before dying he lost his focus and became delerious. doesn't buddhism teach that the state you die in is very important?

The state in which we die is very important, however it is our final intentions which are the real contributing factor. For example, if we have very positive intentions at the moment our conciousness gathers inward at the time of death, we will have a very positive rebirth. However, if we become delerious and ill prior to our time of death, we are experiencing the karma created from actions much previous to this unfortunate circumstance and are therefore not creating causes which will impact our future lives.

It would not be different if a war broke out shortly before the time of your Aunt's friend's death. Although he was surrounded by violence and chaos, if his heart was virtuous then he'll have taken a fortunate rebirth when he perished.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: Ped]
    #4499049 - 08/05/05 09:50 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Bardo teachings describe how the elements dissolve into each other prior to death.

It could be that at a certain stage of the process the element that had to do with the mind lost their supports and the person then became delerious, however that doesn't mean that they will be delerious after death.

What supposedly happens is that immediately upon death one experiences the sensations of falling through space, being crushed by a mountain, and trapped within darkness.

What has happened is that since the elemental supports of the mind have disappeared one who is used to being identified with some place, or another, now feels like they are falling through space. But one is that entire spacious nature.

Ones mind, prior to death, was used to being identified with the body, so reuniting with the spacious self-nature feels like it is crushing one. Prior to death one is used to identifying with the senses, but after death, lacking objects one feels trapped within darkness.

These are the very first feelings upon death.

Then after one has relaxed, the clear light of pure awareness dawns for as long as one was previously able to hold it through practice. If one knew themselves previously as the clear light awareness then they can at that very moment become universally identified with that and be liberated.

However if the person is not cognizant of that self awareness then they go through the rest of the bardo stages.


The very last thought is important, but not all determining. It's just a matter of how karmic that thought is, in the sense of how much push and energy it has. If one dies with the thought, say, of wanting ice cream really really badly, then that attachment will have more power in the bardo where physical reality has ended and mental reality has begun. Thoughts have more power in the bardo.

In many religions one is weighted after death and judged.

You are everything that you encounter in the bardo however and you judge yourself upon the basic thought that clear light awareness which is your basic essence is like a mirror. Whatever you bring in front of it is exactly your judgement.

If you can understand that all these objects are merely your own mind and karmas arising and keep with the clarity of your awareness nature then you can be liberated through any signs which occur in the bardo.

This is why practice while one is alive is very important.


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...or something







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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: eve69]
    #4499105 - 08/05/05 10:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

in buddhism only the term "nirvana" refers to an irreversible state
all other states are reversible, temporary - they rise and pass away.

that is the allegory of life and death, the bardos, rebirth, the arising and falling away of things. all the secret teachings are poetry and metaphor - they scare the credulous into compliance.

buddhism requires no beliefs in what is not seen, and respects no dogmas against what can't be seen either, instead attention is put on what is arising and what is passing.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4499216 - 08/05/05 11:08 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Nice. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLuke
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: Deviate]
    #4499478 - 08/05/05 12:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
i'm trying to understand exactly what buddhism teaches about how one's death affects the next incarnation of their consciousness. my aunt had a friend who was a serious buddhist but he died of adisease (cancer i think it was) that altered his mind. apparently before dying he lost his focus and became delerious. doesn't buddhism teach that the state you die in is very important? if someone achieves a higher consciousness during some point of their life but then they lose it later on would they have been better off dying during the stage of higher consciousness? can enlightenment be lost if something is done to the brain of the person while they are alive or does it transcend all?




While on psychedelics someone on can transcend to the first Bardo. It is a NDE (near death experience), it usually only will only happen on high doses.

The first Bardo is a concept of Tibetan Buddhism. It is the place we go before we die or when on a high enough dose of a drug.

http://www.bardo.org/


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: Luke]
    #4499505 - 08/05/05 01:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

How can anyone possibly know these things?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: dorkus]
    #4499514 - 08/05/05 01:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: Pure speculation.

Hey is that the Sombrero galaxy in your avatar?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OnlineMighty Bop
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: dorkus]
    #4499702 - 08/05/05 01:48 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
How can anyone possibly know these things?




We have all been there before. Don't you remember?


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"One attaineth whatever state of being one thinketh about at the last when relinquishing the body, being ever absorbed in the thought thereof." - Sri Krishna to Arjuna, Bhagavad Gita, viii, 6


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Offlinemikeytwice
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: Icelander]
    #4499712 - 08/05/05 01:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Karma is interesting and can be looked at in any number of ways; I've heard different things from Buddhists.

The way that makes the most logical sense to me is that karma results from not only intention but action on the part of an individual (opposed to what somone said above). Certain memes live on beyond the individual, and that seems to me to be an example of karma. The sage is able to act without acting - that is, act without generating any more karma in the world. Karma is a persistent tendency, so even positive karma can lead to your "rebirth."

I may have really twisted this whole thing, though...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4500076 - 08/05/05 03:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

nice twist
the lack of definition gives it more punch
hold that thought


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: question on buddhism and death [Re: Mighty Bop]
    #4500336 - 08/05/05 04:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

No. Do you?


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