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Invisiblehongo
Hmmm

Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 32
The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces
    #4027443 - 04/07/05 06:55 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

.."However, involved with all your actions, there will be the spell of maya or illusion which will frustrate your efforts to reach your divine goal. There are two powerful forces which make up maya; these are the veiling power and the projecting power. There is no particular form or shape to these two. First, consider the veiling or covering power. How does it cover? With what does it cover? How can you uncover this thing which it has covered? If it does not have form itself, by what means does it cover? How can it be removed? These are all questions that cannot be answered.

Maya is mysterious and inexplicable. Delusion and confusion are its very nature. Consider a rope lying on the road. In the darkness you are deluded into believing that this rope is a snake. What is it that has covered the rope? Try to understand what happened. You were suddenly filled with a feeling of fear because you imagined a snake lying on the road before you. So, it was in your mind that the rope got converted into a snake and you got frightened. Is the snake really there? No, there is no snake there. Then how can the rope be converted into a thing which does not exist and never has existed? This is the delusion.

Under what circumstances does this delusion exert its influence on you? It is during twilight or in the dark that you imagine you see the snake when there is only a rope there. It is through darkness that the delusion comes and envelops you. In truth, no snake has replaced the rope, but the delusion beclouds the minds of human beings and obscures their clear perception. This delusion is maya. When you shine your light on the area, you find no snake there; there is only a rope lying there. Thus, in the light, delusion disappears and the real object is seen.

That which exists will always exist; it will never cease to exist. It remains unchanged forever. There cannot be even the slightest variation in its existence. It is only the delusion affecting it which comes and goes. The form that this delusion takes in the mind is the second powerful force of maya, the projecting power, which superimposes imaginary creations and objects on the unchanging basis. In this case the projection was the snake. Another time it will be something else.

Moods, pains, pleasures, all come and go. They are something like relatives that come to visit you but do not stay permanently. In the same way, this maya comes and goes as a delusion for human beings. The delusion in your mind which covers the rope and hides it from view is the veiling power. The illusion which has been projected by your mind onto the rope is the projecting power. With the help of the light you see the rope as rope, and the snake vanishes. So these two aspects of maya have come in the darkness and have disappeared in the light."

I hope this helps some people finding light.

Hongo


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces [Re: hongo]
    #4027749 - 04/07/05 08:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Nice.
Would this be your own quote? It looks like it is from somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it.


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
DivineeMotive....

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 759
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Re: The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces [Re: mecreateme]
    #4033510 - 04/09/05 08:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mecreateme said:
It looks like it is from somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it.



.
(Ya~ don't wanna put yer~ finger on it, it will burn yer~ finger....)  :wink:

:sun::heart::sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4076466 - 04/20/05 12:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It looks like people are scared of this thread.


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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Offlinewjames
Phenomenologist

Registered: 02/16/05
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Re: The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces [Re: mecreateme]
    #4080026 - 04/21/05 05:20 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mecreateme said:
It looks like people are scared of this thread.




I don't know if I'd conclude that. Maybe there's just not much you can add to the original post--at least not without perpetuating maya.

But I'll ask the obvious question: how to you get to the light that dispels maya?


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces [Re: wjames]
    #4080283 - 04/21/05 10:04 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

There is no how to get there.
You do not try to get there.


edit: Way to take what is said to literally. Obviously my bump was successful in getting someone else to post.


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


Edited by mecreateme (04/21/05 10:07 AM)


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OfflineSoulwax
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Re: The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces [Re: mecreateme]
    #4080773 - 04/21/05 12:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think this is always true, how you tell it doesn't matter. If you believe that or not. Very nice post, came to this conclusion by my own but it might help some people.


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OfflineGreenOsiris
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Re: The Spell of Illusion and its two Powerful Forces [Re: Soulwax]
    #4082702 - 04/21/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Through self-imposed suggestion you can project things onto other things, creating an illusion of something that is not real. But what about this is inherantly a law? I have never seen a shape-shifter and don't know if I believe there are such things, but I can't definitively rule them out as well. How is one to be certain that the rope was never a snake? Solipsism died out long ago, but philosophy is often revived. Our mind cautions us against the unknown and while it is usually the product of an over-active imagination, perhaps there is sometimes a grain of truth in illusion. Your mind tells you it is a rope and therefore always has been, becuase usually nature doesn't behave in such a dynamic fashion, but there are those who would disagree from their own experience that the illusion is not always necessarily an illusion, and rather your rational mind tells you it was indeed an illusion.

Devil's Advocate


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Invisiblehongo
Hmmm

Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 32
The Power of Maya to Delude can be Permanently Dispelled [Re: mecreateme]
    #4117889 - 05/01/05 08:39 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The Power of Maya to Delude can be Permanently Dispelled

Do these two powers of illusion always come at the same time, or can they come at different times? The veiling power and projecting power may appear and disappear at the same time, but, as happens in deep sleep when there is only the veiling power, they may appear and disappear at different times, also. Maya is inexplicable. It has no beginning. But it can permanently come to an end. When the light of wisdom shines on it, maya will finally disappear. Then the one unchanging reality will stand revealed. By teaching this great wisdom to Arjuna, Krishna was able to free him from delusion and helped him shine with the inner light.

Then as now, you are developing only superficial understanding and outer vision. But it is the inner vision that is important; it alone is true and sacred. You lose sight of the one reality, of your own truth, because you pay attention only to the impermanent outer vision and completely forget the permanent inner vision. God's mission is to restore this sacred inner vision. This is what he does when he comes as avatar.

Krishna said, "Dear one, whatever actions you perform during the time you are on this earth, know that they are all impermanent. In time, you will discover that everything in this world is temporary. Your relationships, your attachments, your accomplishments, the sense of individuality you have developed, are all going to disappear. Everything gets washed away in the flow of time. If you try to catch hold of things and cling to things which are themselves being carried away by this flow of time, what chance is there for you to be saved? What chance is there for you to reach that perfection which is forever unaffected by this flow, and which not only is never subject to it, but is always its master?

"Arjuna, the things you are holding on to are all being washed away. Develop the firm conviction that in attaching yourself to temporary things you are wasting your life, that you are wasting the sacred opportunity that has been given to you to reach the permanent state that is your true reality. Surrender yourself to the divinity, hold on to that permanent entity always established in your heart, and you will surely gain the eternal joy, the bliss divine."


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Invisiblehongo
Hmmm

Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 32
The origin of the text [Re: mecreateme]
    #4117892 - 05/01/05 08:44 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Hello, the text comes from "Sai Baba Gita", i really find it interesting to share, it explains many things we "see" while tripping that we cannot explain. How about removing maya permanently to see the truth beyound yourself?
hongo


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: The origin of the text [Re: hongo]
    #4118572 - 05/01/05 02:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ahhh, I thought it was somthing along those lines.

It is not hard to do anything permanently when time does not exist.
When we no longer pattern, when we see the patter for what it is.
Perhaps the true permanence lies in the circle and how it always comes back around again, and you can be anything you want this time around...


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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OfflineJB201
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Re: The origin of the text [Re: mecreateme]
    #4120308 - 05/01/05 08:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The veil is caused by your own duality, your percieved seperatness from reality. your conciousness divides your experiences, emotions, etc... Destroy your conciousness, and you are left with pure awareness. That is the essence of ego death. Pure awareness underlies all of reality, it is you who seperates yourself from pure awareness. In reality you are not seperate from anything, you only think you are, when the veil of conciousness is lifted you realize this.


--------------------


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Offlinewjames
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Satori and samadhi [Re: JB201]
    #4122547 - 05/02/05 11:04 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JB201 said:
The veil is caused by your own duality, your percieved seperatness from reality. your conciousness divides your experiences, emotions, etc... Destroy your conciousness, and you are left with pure awareness. That is the essence of ego death. Pure awareness underlies all of reality, it is you who seperates yourself from pure awareness. In reality you are not seperate from anything, you only think you are, when the veil of conciousness is lifted you realize this.



Two questions:

1. In my current ignorance, it seems to me that Yoga and Zen Buddhism describe somewhat different forms of enlightenment, samadhi and satori, respectively.

After satori, as described by Alan Watts or D. T. Suzuki, one experiences the world without intervening self-conscoiusness. So an enlightened Zen master "chops wood and carries water," but with total involvement and participation in the tasks. He or she *is* the task. The feelings and sensations, all completely enjoyable.

In contrast, the image of the advanced yogi is more that of renunciant. He or she, after enlightenment, sees the world as mere illusion. One might play at chopping wood and carrying water, since that is more or less Krishna's advice to Arjuna, but there would also be a sense that it really doesn't' matter.

I'm sure one can try to reconcile this apparent difference--I can almost do that myself. But my question is whether one should--that is, whether these really are two different kinds of experiences.

2. Perhaps more to the point, how can one use mushrooms to facilitate such an experience. A single large dose? How large? Many large doses? Should one take them while meditating? While outside in nature?


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali


Edited by wjames (05/12/05 09:47 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Satori and samadhi [Re: wjames]
    #4122592 - 05/02/05 11:23 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

there is a kind of light (a cleansing and vitalizing of spirit) or energy from a samadhi experience. It can be deeply moving and very helpful, even visionary, but it is not the same as 'enlightenment'.

on a different tack,

there is a kind of light (wisdom and intelligence) and personality re-ordering from a satori experience.

The new order, after satori, can easily be shuffelled again, so satori is considered less than "enlightenment" in that one would have to keep re-ordering in order to be wise.

both have some crossover with absorption types of experiences such as when entheogenized and ecstatic vision (frame stacking) moves into a very relaxed resonance.


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: Satori and samadhi [Re: wjames]
    #4122653 - 05/02/05 11:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I obtained the cosmic mind from a single large dose, in the nine plus dried gram range. However, I am inclined to believe it is also dependent on the person to be ready for such an experience. It is so powerful and amazing that I still ascribe to it more than just the psilocybin containing mushrooms I ingested. It is both and neither of the experiences you are describing and it is beyond the ability to concieve because it lies in experience. It is hard to reconcile limited experiences with learned conditioning over time. They both present different changes in consciousness. One happens in the blink of an eye, one happens slowly over many, many years.

People still debate on whether the psychedlic experience is different from natural mystical experience. All my personal studying leads me to believe they are the same, but in the end it all comes down to a personal choice. There is no way to tell, unless you yourself are the devoted monk.


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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OfflineJB201
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Re: Satori and samadhi [Re: mecreateme]
    #4124663 - 05/02/05 08:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

renunciation is not the answer.A state of pure awareness is not a renunciation from reality, It is more like becoming phenomenal reality itself, becoming all of reality, a state of oneness from seperateness. Most cannot stay in this state for long, which is why it is important to bring back what you have learned from this state and apply it to your daily life. Servitude to others becomes servitude to yourself, because you have realized there is no seperateness from others. All is one.


--------------------


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OfflineJB201
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Re: Satori and samadhi [Re: JB201]
    #4124695 - 05/02/05 08:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I used to have mystical experiences when using dexadrine and MJ. Feelings of pressure in the head flashes of what people were thinking etc..., One time while doing these "experiments" I saw a flash of white light enter my head, and a feeling of being ripped from my body. I was quite afraid and barely able to bring myself out of this state. Now that I think about it I should have just let go.


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OfflineGreenOsiris
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Re: Satori and samadhi [Re: JB201]
    #4125253 - 05/02/05 10:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The hardest part is letting go


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Offlinewjames
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Re: Satori and samadhi [Re: mecreateme]
    #4165584 - 05/12/05 09:58 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mecreateme said:
I obtained the cosmic mind from a single large dose, in the nine plus dried gram range.



Did you build up to thatlarge dose slowly over time?"

With so large a dose, did you just take it and lie down, or what?

Any other practices or special preparations worth mentioning?

So that I contribute something new in this post, let me mention an excellent book called "Cosmic Consciousness" by R. M. Bucke. It describes the classic "attainment of the cosmic mind" experience taking examples from famous religious figures and artists. The book was written over 100 years ago and is in the public domain. I wish there were a version online, but I can't find one.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali


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Offlinewjames
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Re: Satori and samadhi [Re: JB201]
    #4165645 - 05/12/05 10:26 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JB201 said:
A state of pure awareness is not a renunciation from reality, It is more like becoming phenomenal reality itself



I agree that this is a basic issue, perhaps *the* basic issue here.
Logically, it seems like a genuine state of pure awareness is, by definition, higher or more fundamental than any phenomenal reality. Maybe the trouble is states that merely *seem* like pure awareness, but which are our own phenomenal constructions. But this is just going by the logic of a certain pheneomonal reality...

Quote:

Servitude to others becomes servitude to yourself, because you have realized there is no seperateness from others. All is one.


I would be careful with the word "servitude" so as to avoid constructing a phenomenal reality which defines other people as suffering and having those kinds of needs--the problem being that the construction might *make* this happen when it otherwise wouldn't.

I like the word 'love' better.' In a state of love perhaps enjoyment and service, giving and receiving love, merge into one thing.


--------------------
"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali


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