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OfflineSneezingPenis
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dog poo, and the external creation of your universe
    #4024903 - 04/07/05 05:02 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Imagine a puppy, which has yet to see a human in its life. It eats when it needs to, it struggles to survive... its world is survival, all actions and thoughts are based solely on staying alive. Now lets say you find this dog, and take it home with you. First thing the dog does, is crap all over your floor. So you spank it, and say "Bad Dog!", or "No!" or whatever you do. Eventually after a few more poo-ings, and some more verbal/physical abuse, you instill in the dog a sense of wrong and right. The dog now knows that crapping on the floor is "bad". Your dog now has morals, and ethics (somewhat).
Our reality and universe is created the exact same way by external forces the second we are born. our eyes cant even focus, all we see are blobs and we keep hearing this word repeated over and over again which we come to realize has something to do with us, which is our name. They condition you into yourself...you are Bob. Bob is you. Now that they have you conditioned to identify yourself as Bob, they can start working on shaping your reality. Dont stick your finger in the light socket, dont shit on the floor, dont hit your sister, this is wrong, that is wrong...this is right, that is right. WOOF


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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4025154 - 04/07/05 09:20 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

yeah...and your point?

this is already known.


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need that cash to feed them jones.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: Teragon]
    #4025283 - 04/07/05 10:23 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think you just showed us..? :wink:
:heartpump:


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Disclaimer!?


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: Gomp]
    #4025810 - 04/07/05 01:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

very good analogy.

Unfortunately people will agree with such ideas and then say "But there are SOME things are DEFINITELY right and wrong!" Otherwise they might have to let go of their self constructed realities and be lost...


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OfflineShagshow
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: dr0mni]
    #4026273 - 04/07/05 02:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What you are referring to is something having Intrinsic Value. Look it up. I personally, think killing for no reason is wrong, and not helping someone in need who is that way beyond reasons of their own, also qualifies as being wrong.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4026278 - 04/07/05 03:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What are you getting at?

That we should do pavlovian training on society to the extent that we bring about this "good"?


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineShagshow
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4026373 - 04/07/05 03:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The point is not clear to any of us....


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4026386 - 04/07/05 03:22 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
What are you getting at?

That we should do pavlovian training on society to the extent that we bring about this "good"?




That training has already been done. From the moment we'er born we are trained to respond to certain stimuli and ignore other. Nature does it also. I think that's what he's saying. He didn't quite make a value judgement as to good or bad, though it does sound like a rant is beginning to form. I wish we could get some more info as to intent of all this. :confused:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: Icelander]
    #4026406 - 04/07/05 03:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

aye! :lol:

But anyone can break such training.

Tell me something is industructible... I'll find a way to break it.

Can we get a little more elaboration on this psilocyberin?


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4026509 - 04/07/05 03:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

He is raising awareness on examining that the person you believe yourself to be and the reality you believe to be inhabiting is all the product of social conditioning.

Maybe, you are really somebody else and maybe, the reality around you is vastly different then what you were told it is. Who said we can't challenge all of the conditioning we have been reared by?

Look at Ozzie. He is a rebel of social conditioning and raised dogs to be the same way. They shit all over his house. They are living in a lot more freedom then house broken dogs are.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinehobgoblin
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4026688 - 04/07/05 04:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Now lets say you find this dog, and take it home with you. First thing the dog does, is crap all over your floor. So you spank it, and say "Bad Dog!", or "No!" or whatever you do. Eventually after a few more poo-ings, and some more verbal/physical abuse, you instill in the dog a sense of wrong and right. The dog now knows that crapping on the floor is "bad". Your dog now has morals, and ethics (somewhat).




If you put newspaper down and restrict the puppy's access to your home while you are away and keep a close eye on him or her while you are home and simply clean up after the puppy if he or she makes a boo boo on the carpet, take the poop outside with the puppy and show the puppy that outside is the place where the excrement belongs, the puppy will understand over time that outside is the place to go.

Also praise the puppy exuberantly when he or she goes to the bathroom outside and follow that up with play and treats. Show the animal good stuff and he or she will respond.

Dogs are only as bright as the people who are entrusted with their care.

We are exactly the same.


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Seek not to rationalize hobgoblins. ~ Yeats


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4026781 - 04/07/05 04:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)




Look at Ozzie. He is a rebel of social conditioning and raised dogs to be the same way. They shit all over his house. They are living in a lot more freedom then house broken dogs are.

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I would really take alot to break through most of the programming that we have received. We may let the dog shit in the middle of the living room, but in many ways Ozzie is just like any American citizen. I wouldn't know where to begin. Except of course- :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: Icelander]
    #4026906 - 04/07/05 05:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, I got to thinking how much it would take to break from a lot of it. Where does one begin? Whats even worth breaking from in exchange for some more natural freedom? There is a lot about civilized society I appreciate.

I am glad people are conditioned to use toilets, deodorant and eating utensils.

Whose got some examples of what sort of conditioning we should break away from?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4027485 - 04/07/05 07:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

sorry for the lapse.. I made this thread as a very stoned psilo at about 3 am or so.

I guess my intent was just to show the analogy. I was talking to someone in a chat room who was all about right and wrong, so after conversing, it came down to this same analogy about her dog shitting on the floor. I didnt really have any intent beyond that... I (as well as most other people on this thread) kind of just put it out there and if you already knew it, cool.

...I do like what gettingjiggywithit is talking about. I also appreciate people shitting in designated porcelain areas, dental hygeine and eating utensils....but once again we are conditioned to appreciate this. What we even find aesthetically pleasing has been conditioned... take female underarm hair or leg hair (ladies just imagine back hair) for example, most of us have been conditioned to find a lack of underarm hair on a female aesthetically pleasing... sure you might think that you created you aesthetic affinity, but you havent in anyway.
But im not sure if we should really break away from this agreed upon reality, it is what keeps the illusion of society rolling which has helped us coexist long enough peacefully to think about such things as the illusion of society. The second you come into awareness of another consciousness (person) there must be an overlapping of illusory "rules" and reality for this meeting to occur. If you smell bad and have bad breath, you will feel embarrassed or ashamed (or whatever you have been conditioned to feel in that situation), while that person feels disgusted or shocked (or conditioned however). These rules existed for that time and you just broke them.

Now, you and your dog are much the same way, but you have a different set of overlapping rules and realities. You can stink, and be naked, pick your nose and rip a huge fart; the dog doesnt care, there were no rules you broke, but dont feed it or pet it, then you are breaking some rules of this overlapped reality....
so i guess in conclusion, be aware of the rules/morals/ethics of society yet try to make it become folly (to use something from Don Juan). Try to detach yourself from all of your conditionings, while acting and playing in the game of society, unless you are ready to do away with and leave society, then dont play the game.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4027710 - 04/07/05 08:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


Whose got some examples of what sort of conditioning we should break away from?
-------------------------------------------------------------------

How about, My country, right or wrong. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: Icelander]
    #4027986 - 04/07/05 09:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Break on through to the other side!


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: dog poo, and the external creation of your universe [Re: slaphappy]
    #4029024 - 04/08/05 12:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well, it's obvious that killing for no reason will have a negative effect on your psyche, and will probably cause you much pain. But the killing is only wrong in relation to the context and the consequences.

There are plenty of times when killing for certain reasons (food, mercy, etc) is a GOOD thing. So it's not neccesarily the killing that's bad, but it's the intentions, context, and consequences behind the killing that determine whether it is "right" or "wrong"

Essentially, all phenomena are inherently empty of meaning until WE project meaning, emotions, and value onto them. Thus, there is no TRUE, ABSOLUTE good or bad.


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