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OfflineTwirling
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One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology...
    #4014587 - 04/04/05 11:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

God supposedly created human beings the way they are, therefore who we are is based on how He created us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that God even pre-determined our events in life, such as birth, death, and so forth.


So by this model, wouldn't God be responsible for human transgressions? On top of that, considering how much people are a product of their environment, doesn't a person's actions reflect more of the events in a person's life, as well as the society a person was raised in?

In other words, for human beings to be truly responsible for their sins, they would have to be entirely free from any biological, neurological impluses which motivate people to do these things? On top of which, not have their fate pre-determined?


I don't think Christainty needs to be debunked anymore than it has on this board, but this is something which really contradicts itself. I'm sure different Christain sects have different answers to this, I'm mainly wondering what they would be.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Twirling]
    #4014600 - 04/04/05 11:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

SHHHH, worry not about these things my child... have a cracker and some wine and stop asking dangerous questions like this...


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4014673 - 04/04/05 11:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If the church smoked marijuana as a sacrament instead of, or in addition to, drinking wine, I might attend!


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Twirling]
    #4014767 - 04/04/05 11:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

God didn't predetermine shit, or else he wouldn't care what we did.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Twirling]
    #4014782 - 04/04/05 11:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that God even pre-determined our events in life, such as birth, death, and so forth.

Christianity has thousands of sects so to state that as a universal is wrong. However what is more important is the idea that according to Christianity God created everything. If God created you, the universe you live in, the emotions you experience, the choices you have, the physics of this world and every possibility of this world then how can you do something against God? If he created not only the world you live in but also time and space then everything you do is only possible because he allows it. Thus nothing you can do can be wrong. It simply is.

Can God do wrong? If so who judges him? Since God is the absolute top nothing he does is right or wrong, it simply is. In the same vein nothing we do is right or wrong except as judged by him. And I would argue anything we do that is considered "wrong" is only possible be cause he created the possibility. If he created the possibility and allowed it then he can only be described as a sadist by selfishly describing it as wrong.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: cb9fl]
    #4014814 - 04/04/05 11:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I personally think he created evil and hell so that heaven could exist.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
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OfflineTwirling
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: cb9fl]
    #4014911 - 04/04/05 11:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that God even pre-determined our events in life, such as birth, death, and so forth.

Christianity has thousands of sects so to state that as a universal is wrong.




This is kind of what I was expecting. Different denominations have different ideas on this. Some more "modern" than others.



Quote:

cb9fl said:
However what is more important is the idea that according to Christianity God created everything. If God created you, the universe you live in, the emotions you experience, the choices you have, the physics of this world and every possibility of this world then how can you do something against God? If he created not only the world you live in but also time and space then everything you do is only possible because he allows it. Thus nothing you can do can be wrong. It simply is.

Can God do wrong? If so who judges him? Since God is the absolute top nothing he does is right or wrong, it simply is. In the same vein nothing we do is right or wrong except as judged by him. And I would argue anything we do that is considered "wrong" is only possible be cause he created the possibility. If he created the possibility and allowed it then he can only be described as a sadist by selfishly describing it as wrong.




Christains would consider good and evil to be opposites and that God doesn't create the possiblity for evil, but that evil is the abscence of good.


I personally just see good & evil as general descriptions to attempt to influence positive behavior in people, but truly doesn't exist.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4014915 - 04/04/05 11:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So he arbitrarily defined a possible action he made possible as bad simply.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: cb9fl]
    #4015125 - 04/05/05 12:41 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know what he did, that's why they call it "belief". I do surmise that passion could not exist without a polar opposite to define it.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4015171 - 04/05/05 12:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I do surmise that passion could not exist without a polar opposite to define it.

Really? Why? What emotional constant requires passion to have a polar opposite?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: cb9fl]
    #4015205 - 04/05/05 01:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

along the lines of:

what is light if there is no darkness to compare it to, so that it may be said "there is light"?


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Twirling]
    #4015211 - 04/05/05 01:01 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

-In response to your first post.

Christianity being debunked?

You're definetly going to hell for that one!  :hellfire:

God created man>> god created satan>> god allowed man the free will to damn him self eternally for he defied god, which leads me to believe that god has a very strong ego>> not a god I'd want to serve.

God created man, and man is flawed>> man wrote the bible>> man rewrites the bible, and translates it, keep in mind man is flawed as stated by the book of contradictions>> The bible has god's perfect word, but it was written by a flawed being, albeit through a perfect being>> Dunno about you, but to me it stands to reason that perhaps, the bible is flawed as a result of god's message being conveyed through such a flawed being.

God allows evil through satan which is his creation, yet mandates that we shouldn't follow evil which was what he allows by letting it persist through the devil's machinations. FFS god, lead me up to the control room, with the blinking red button, and tempt me not to push the damn thing just because you say not to, without giving me a rational reason why I shouldn't.

Anyway... why is it that we all must pay for something 2 fuckups did in the Garden of Eden? That's like African Americans bitching to all white men that they owe them something several generations after the fact of slavery... don't mean to be offensive or anything. Sure some white people fucked up in the past, nobody's denying that (some are, but that isn't the point)... but should we really all be held accountable for it? (Example purposes, I'm mutt in terms of ethnicity)

I dunno, I wouldn't question the Bible too much though, you need a "divine" form of logic or someone that posseses such to interpret the words for you.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4015226 - 04/05/05 01:07 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If you believe in God, who created light? Who created the possibility of light? Who created light as an opposite of darkness? It is only through our feeble human intellect that we require light to have darkness as its opposite. The pair were not required before the universe and all of it's physical constraints were built. If it were then God is not truly omnipotent and thus is not The God. If not then God created created every physical, emotional, social, metaphysical aspect of this universe and everything not listed or in between. Nothing "simply is" rather everything is a product of God and thus everything can be attributed to him.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: cb9fl]
    #4016281 - 04/05/05 10:24 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Personally I do not believe that God lacks limitatations, I just think that his limitations are so far beyond ours that we cannot even imagine what they are.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4016819 - 04/05/05 01:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

i hate so much when people use that argument.

there's an answer out there, but our feeble minds can't grasp it

well if your god really truly cared about me, he would make sure he did everything in his power to convince me of his reality and his power. So far, nothing.

fuck blind faith.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4016967 - 04/05/05 01:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

God lacks everything we don't choose to assign them.

The only limitations with any god/angel/diety are those that we give them. Zeus was limited in terms of what he could do, as were all the other gods of the pantheon. You might not choose to believe that the story was true, but a hell of a lot of people did, and provided many limitations in terms of the conduct of their gods. How is the Christian god any different beyond what is stated in one book? Neither Zeus, nor Jehova, nor Ra, nor Quetzalcoatl is any different.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Twirling]
    #4017170 - 04/05/05 02:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology...

If there is ONLY one thing you don't understand about CT, then you have mastered it far more than most.  :tongue2:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Swami]
    #4017255 - 04/05/05 02:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Twirling said:
God supposedly created human beings the way they are, therefore who we are is based on how He created us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that God even pre-determined our events in life, such as birth, death, and so forth.


So by this model, wouldn't God be responsible for human transgressions? On top of that, considering how much people are a product of their environment, doesn't a person's actions reflect more of the events in a person's life, as well as the society a person was raised in?

In other words, for human beings to be truly responsible for their sins, they would have to be entirely free from any biological, neurological impluses which motivate people to do these things? On top of which, not have their fate pre-determined?


I don't think Christainty needs to be debunked anymore than it has on this board, but this is something which really contradicts itself. I'm sure different Christain sects have different answers to this, I'm mainly wondering what they would be.




What if God 'supposedly' creates, human beings the way they are..?

:wink: :heart:


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4017589 - 04/05/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Blame Adam and Eve ....  :smirk: :wink:

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflinePeyoteZen
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Re: One thing that I don't understand about Christan Theology... [Re: MAIA]
    #4017981 - 04/05/05 05:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:smirk:

I always get a kick out of that archaic religion.


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