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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4001707 - 04/01/05 07:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

"A psychiatrist stands to make MORE money, by repeatedly seeing you than he/she would by writing a prescription."


There are only so many hours in a day. They would much rather you just hand them the money and move along.


"the evidence simply doesn't support it. "


Whose evidence? My experience is that more people are harmed by these drugs than helped.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4007575 - 04/03/05 04:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sure you're aware a patient cannot diagnose him/herslef.



"diagnose" according to whose definition? The definition required to prescribe something, yes? To diagnose essentially means to analyze and determine the nature of a form of suffering. The suffering individual, who is familiar and intimate with all the details, influence and occurances in his life is clearly the best equipped to do this, especially since psychological diagnoses can only be determined subjectively, as you pointed out.

Quote:

This is less than optimal, but in the absence of laboratory, or objective tests it's the best one can do.



Yes, and you must also admit that it's bullshit that a generic panel of questions is usually what is used to determine if a patient should be prescribed something. Questions like:

Have you been sad a lot lately?

How does your future look?

Do you have difficulty making decisions?

Are you tired?

Do you feel guilty or like a failure?

The questions all beg simple answers and those answers weigh the decision to go on the drugs or not. But these questions do nothing to determine the nature of suffering and they oversimply the complexity of people's lives. It is such an obtuse way of treating someone. It is treating a person as if they are somehow seperate from their emotions and lives and, more importantly, the way they react to them and allow themselves to be affected.

Quote:

In general, "lazy" people don't usually fair well in medical school. It's a difficult thing to get through.




That means nothing. A person could go to school and study music theory intensely, which is at least as difficult, if not far more than studying medicine, but that doesn't mean that they will be capable of composing good music or that they will ever even attempt to once they graduate.

Quote:

In addition, psychotherapy by itself (or "Talking it out") hasn't been shown to alleviate depression to a greater extent than through the use of drugs (e.g. they produce almost identical results). Thus, since the chances of withdrawal of depression are equal between pharmacotherapy and psychotherapy, the sensible choice is the use of a drug, which is far cheaper.





The logic you are presenting here is that a person's only two choices are traditional psychotherapy or drugs. Once again, this attitude oversimplifies the complexity and potential of human life. The idea that there is a "sensible choice" implies that finding wellness and wholeness depends on such a choice. This is not logical. Finding wellness is a process that presents individuals with many choices on a daily basis, and many of the choices people make that cause them to suffer are very subtle. Every person must work on their outer and inner being and to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.


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InvisibleCloud9
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Viveka]
    #4007827 - 04/03/05 07:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Most kids I see sell thier pills to other kids rather then take them themselves.


--------------------


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4007898 - 04/03/05 08:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Also, you're totally underestimating how hard it is to become a witch doctor. Most of them study at least as long as any medical doctor.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4008236 - 04/03/05 12:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
"A psychiatrist stands to make MORE money, by repeatedly seeing you than he/she would by writing a prescription."

There are only so many hours in a day. They would much rather you just hand them the money and move along.




I was referring to the fact that most psychiatrists are paid on a per visit basis. For instance, a psychiatrist may charge $100/per hour. If he sees you for an hour, writes a prescription for an antidepressant, and it works, he's made a $100. However, if he doesn't use a drug and sees you three times per week, he stands to make much more.

quote]Baby_Hitler said:"the evidence simply doesn't support it. "

Whose evidence? My experience is that more people are harmed by these drugs than helped.




The evidence presented in clinical trials. In order to get FDA approval, a drug must be shown to be better than placebo.

For example heres a trial of Venalafaxine:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...st_uids=1924660

This was a rather small study of only about 90 patients. If you perform a literature search the studies get much larger and contain literally thousands of patients. All showing an improvement greater then those receiving a "placebo".

In addition (and related to your initial post) look at the frequency with which these drugs are taken. I don't feel many people would continue to voluntarily take a drug they disliked.

Quote:

EvilEye? said:
"diagnose" according to whose definition?



The DSM-IV TR criteria. Which is a group of symptoms agreed upon which indicate various types of mood disorders. Yes, it is subjective, however these "diagnoses" were decided upon by trained professionals. Those with experience in the field, and far more familiar with mood disorders than the average person.

Quote:

EvilEye? said: The suffering individual, who is familiar and intimate with all the details, influence and occurances in his life is clearly the best equipped to do this




I would have to disagree. In my opinion someone whom has extensively studied mood disorders would be better equipped. A psychiatrist sees many patients, and is familiar with the symptoms (especially ones that aren't entirely overt). Psychiatrists have devoted a significant amount of time in medical school studying the causes, treatments and symptoms of psychological disorders. They are better able to recognize, diagnose and treat disroders then the lay person.

Quote:

EvilEye? said: Yes, and you must also admit that it's bullshit that a generic panel of questions is usually what is used to determine if a patient should be prescribed something.




My original argument still stands: It's the best we can do.

The questions are open ended, and allow a patient to expand. In response to a simple questions such as: "How do you feel" one can give a lengthy answer and go in many directions. They are designed to do this, and usually do not yield "simple answers".

Again, this illustrates the need of a highly trained psychiatrist, one whom is able to "interpret" these answers and determine the "nature of suffering" (e.g. unipolar depression, bipolar depression, schizophrenia, etc.). If you've ever read the DSM-IV it's much more than simply writing in a notebook: "Patient feels sad, writing a prescription"

Quote:

EvilEye? said:That means nothing. A person could go to school and study music theory intensely, which is at least as difficult, if not far more than studying medicine, but that doesn't mean that they will be capable of composing good music or that they will ever even attempt to once they graduate.




But what are the chances of this happening? How many great "music scholars" attend julliard and end up being horrible at what they do?

My only point is that "the vast majority" of doctors are not lazy. Ask any physician during their residency how "lazy" you have to be to work an 80 week. Most physicians are competent, ethical, and do what they do out of a desire to help people.

Quote:

EvilEye? said:The logic you are presenting here is that a person's only two choices are traditional psychotherapy or drugs




In western, "traditional medicine" (allopathic medicine) the choices are few. The debate of traditional "allopathic" medicine versus "non-traditional" medicine is neither here nor there.

In a modern, western culture a large amount of patients are not going to feel comfortable with "spiritual healing", or concentrating on their "chakra's", "inner energy levels" etc. to alleviate depression.

Quote:

EvilEye? said: to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.




Theres no evidence for this claim whatsoever.
A chemical imbalance is the leading theory of the cause of depression. There is no evidence that being "spiritually unwell" or having an "imbalance between someone's inner and outer being" is the cause of depression. There never will be. Which is why alternative forms of "self healing" will never be accepted by the majority in Western Societies.

In summary, prescription drugs are the most cost-effective and efficacious way of treating depression. Is the system perfect? Obviously not. I'd be interested to hear alternative solutions.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4008757 - 04/03/05 04:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So... which pharmaceutical company do you work for?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The happy pill [Re: moog]
    #4009246 - 04/03/05 07:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
So... which pharmaceutical company do you work for?




LOL!
I don't work for a pharmaceutical company. I'm in the research field and all of my funding comes from government grants. These grants pay my salary along with a small amount of pocket change I get for teaching at two universities.

I'm well aware of the side effects of antidepressant drugs. Certainly they are not for everyone (and I've mostly been playing devil's advocate in this thread). However I do feel that for the majority of people they work quite well. Just as several in this thread loathe these drugs, I've met many whom have had there lives changed by antidepressants. I also feel the scientific data supports my claim of their generally positive effects.

Are they overprescribed and used too often? Probably. The fact is, with rising healthcare costs they are a good bet. Very often depressed individuals don't have access to healthcare, much less the luxury of seeing a pychiatrist on a regular basis. What are these people to do? Thats why I feel that using an antidepressant as a first line therapy is a good choice.

Additionally those whom have had adverse experiences are usually vocal about the use of these drugs. The public needs to understand that many of these drugs (and the study of depression in general) are in their infancies. SSRI's have only been intriduced in the early 90's. With time and continued research and development, they will only get better. People are quick to dismiss these compounds as inherently "bad" which hinders the development of what I feel are very important, and very useful tools. If a negative stigma is associated with them development will cease and we may potentially lose an interesting and therapeutic class of drugs.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4012972 - 04/04/05 04:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

chill out and munch some Prozac!!!

we're a nation of manic depressants, and who can blame us?


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP



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Invisiblemoog
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4013125 - 04/04/05 05:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The problem I have with prescribing anti-depressents is that it addresses the symptoms without addressing the root problem. OK, you're feeling depressed, take this pill and feel better. Don't worry about why you're depressed.

I thought the whole point of psychotherapy was to cure the problem rather than the symptoms. I think this is what people speak of here when they say "lazy." What if medical doctors did this? Suppose you had a cancerous tumor and were in terrible pain from it, and the doctor just kept giving you pain medication without doing anything about the tumor?! This is essentially what these psychiatrists are doing. A doctor should take the time to sit down with each patient and work out the root problem. Isn't that what they went to school for anyway? If they can't see all the patients that want to see them, those patients will just have to find another doctor. Hey, at least it would increase demand for jobs in psychiatry.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The happy pill [Re: moog]
    #4013170 - 04/04/05 05:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Most of all our medicine only treats the symptoms not the problem, I'll post a link if I find it...

But only a limited... a very limited amount of prescribed drugs deal with the issue versus the symptoms.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4013195 - 04/04/05 05:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Some of the best doctors are witch doctors.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4013196 - 04/04/05 05:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.prozac.com/common_pages/safety_information.jsp?reqNavId=undefined


"What are possible side effects of PROZAC?

Some people experience side effects like nausea, difficulty sleeping, drowsiness, anxiety, nervousness, weakness, loss of appetite, tremors, dry mouth, sweating, decreased sex drive, impotence, or yawning. Most of these tend to go away within a few weeks of starting treatment and, in most cases, aren't serious enough to cause people to stop taking PROZAC.

PROZAC can cause changes in sexual desire or satisfaction.

Do not drive a car or operate dangerous machinery until you know what effects PROZAC may have on you.

Contact your doctor or healthcare professional if you get a rash or hives, or other side effects that concern you while taking PROZAC."


No thank you... I'd rather be depressed  :smirk:

One wonders if the risks outweigh the benefits. People need to learn how to cope, and not to rely on a "magical pill" to drastically improve their life.

It's odd, whenever anyone suggest that an illegal drug has benefitted them, or if they are dependant on it to effect their mood, then shit hits the fan. The same doesn't apply to manufactured drugs that have negative consequences as a result of their use for some reason.

:shrug: Doctors employed by the research firms to promote their drug and please their shareholders know best I suppose.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4013203 - 04/04/05 05:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

:lol: I agree... selling the illusion of control of one's body, is nearly as good as curing a person.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4020046 - 04/06/05 03:06 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psychiatrists have devoted a significant amount of time in medical school studying the causes, treatments and symptoms of psychological disorders. They are better able to recognize, diagnose and treat disroders then the lay person.




Yes, one reason this type is medicine is so incomplete is because it views people and their experiences as manifestations of well-researched, textbook disorders. Empirical science must of course largely ignore that even the "lay person" is a radically complex being whose physical and mental experience develops according to infinite potentials, possibilities and influences. I wouldn't expect all that to be covered in medical school.

Quote:

But what are the chances of this happening? How many great "music scholars" attend julliard and end up being horrible at what they do?





I'd say the percentage of music theory students who end up writing terrible music or none at all is the vast majority. Music and medicine both combine elements of high science and art. To execute either effectively is difficult.

Quote:

In a modern, western culture a large amount of patients are not going to feel comfortable with "spiritual healing", or concentrating on their "chakra's", "inner energy levels" etc. to alleviate depression.




Who are you quoting here? I'm not even talking about chakras or "spiritual healing", however silly you may find that notion to be. I'm talking about personal accountability. I'm talking about human beings embracing their potential. I'm talking about rejecting deply engrained patterns of seeking comfort and ease in light of the realization that life can be a lot bigger than that, even if it's hard and uncomfortable.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EvilEye? said: to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Theres no evidence for this claim whatsoever.


My actual complete statement was "Every person must work on their outer and inner being and to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.

Are you saying that there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate that the majority of people are capable of helping themselves? Man, what is this infallible body of evidence that you're accessing?

Quote:

There is no evidence that being "spiritually unwell" or having an "imbalance between someone's inner and outer being" is the cause of depression. There never will be.



Again, who are you quoting? And maybe you had better start at least defining your terms if you're going to speak in absolutes. Define "depression". Then define "spiritual". What about someone who is being dishonest with themselves about the way they are living their life. Hey, there's one simple and general example of how something other than a chemical imbalance could cause "depression". What about the person who feels that their life is without meaning because they never discovered a creative passion? How does your chemical imbalance theory translate there? What about the man who is miserable because western society has attempted to define him and he feels he is ultimately undefinable? Does that meet your qualification for evidence? There's three. Shall we examine this further?

Quote:

There is no evidence....which is why alternative forms of "self healing" will never be accepted by the majority in Western Societies.




Gee, it's too bad the majority in Western Societies is so hung up on clinical evidence to "prove" something that is a laughably inadaquate definition to begin with, isn't it? Or do you think that clinical terms are the ultimate in understanding the universe?

Quote:

In summary, prescription drugs are the most cost-effective and efficacious way of treating depression.



Again, define depression, or the statement means nothing.


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InvisibleAhronZombi
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Viveka]
    #4020216 - 04/06/05 04:11 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Dont take any corprate prescritions, most of thems are copies of products available in nature, and most anti depresion medicine will make you nuts. for depresion take 2 tables spoons of powdered kratrom a day, its not a opiate but it will stimulate your opiate receptors and fix allot of depresion and anxiety problems

Plus depresion and most metal problems are all about internal chemical addictions, imbalances dont exist. when you feel anything relise its just a chemical in your brain, try not to take it in personaly and observe it instead, you will learn to feel better


Edited by AhronZombi (04/06/05 04:13 AM)


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Offlinestefan
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #4020741 - 04/06/05 10:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I keep thinking that these pills are just images of an ideal american individual. Kind of like someone is behind all these drugs some how tilting the mentality of a nation towards a more seemingly happy resolution.



you sound paranoid

The pills are not making you a model citizen, they just change your brain chemistry a little so you can function better in daily life.


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