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ohmatic
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rez-effect revised
#4004451 - 04/02/05 10:25 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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ey!
first off, if you never heard about the 'rez-effect' before, check out Starter's thread here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1939583/page//fpart/1/vc/1
so basically, its about supplying additional water by using moist verm which is a great idea in the first place, but thats just the start, you could and can do so much more using that method.
what about putting additional nutes in the water u use for moistening the verm, wouldnt that be just even better?
well so i thought when i did my mono-tub project, i used boiled down alc free beer and it worked great, take a look:

here's the thread to the mono-tub project, read there for further information: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...e=0&fpart=1
so, the aim of this thread is to figure out how various nute additions do if you use the 'nuted' water for moistening the verm.
nute's to be used will be: boiled straw water boiled manure water boiled potatoe water alc free beer (already did and worked great)
so im going to do various casings using the exact same ammount of grains and verm, but using different additions for the verm.
i think this is going to turn out quite interesting, if you got additional ideas for what to use for verm 'nuting', let me know. ill keep you guys informed  peace ohm
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kilgore_trout
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4004871 - 04/02/05 12:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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use an isolated strain and try to give them equal env. conditions to non nuted counterparts or else your method will be flawed and scientifically unreliable.
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RogerRabbit
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I'm still in love with coffee hydration. Soak your verm in it and watch all the invitro fruits pop. RR
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ohmatic
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Quote:
kilgore_trout said: use an isolated strain and try to give them equal env. conditions to non nuted counterparts or else your method will be flawed and scientifically unreliable.
did you really think i didnt mind that?
rodger, no doubt on the invitropowers of coffee, but still invitro is not the aim of the test so i doubt ill use it. peace ohm
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scatmanrav
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4005448 - 04/02/05 03:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would suggest, as a side experiment...soaking verm in those waters in jars and sterilizing it alone...then knock it up with an agar wedge or something. It would be cool to see which colonizes faster, and to see if any of them would fruit with just nutrient water. I doubt that they would...but if you could even get small fruits (like off agar) off a particular verm casing..you'd have a better idea which would work better when applied to grains/substrate.
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ohmatic
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: scatmanrav]
#4005491 - 04/02/05 03:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
scatmanrav said: I would suggest, as a side experiment...soaking verm in those waters in jars and sterilizing it alone...then knock it up with an agar wedge or something. It would be cool to see which colonizes faster, and to see if any of them would fruit with just nutrient water. I doubt that they would...but if you could even get small fruits (like off agar) off a particular verm casing..you'd have a better idea which would work better when applied to grains/substrate.
actually that is a really nice idea and b/c of that ill take back what i said about the coffee rodger, ill try using its invitro power for the verm&nutewater experiment.
im going to prepare several very small jars with the nute'd verm (gotta love that term lol) and mix in a bit of coffee and see if ill get them to do some invitro action 
i doubt casing it if it manages to colonise fully (which is going to be interesting non the less) would be off any use, the invitro show should be enuf. peace ohm
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fresh313
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4005696 - 04/02/05 04:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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nice work ohm!
the rez-effect is definately an amazing technique, starter is the man, and adding nutes to the water is a great addition
i would think the manure water would provide the most nutes, i look forward to your results.
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agar
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4007776 - 04/03/05 04:47 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Don't mean to rain on the parade..... BUT...follow along, a moment.
Rez-effect with verm saturated in nutriant rich solution, will simply cause that verm to be colonized by myc & become part of the substrate.
What is a "cake' after all, but verm & water with minor amounts of BRF nutes mixed in the solution. Cakes certainly colonize.
I have soaked straight verm in various nutriant laden solutions. It will colonize, just fine - without anything else added.
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ohmatic
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: agar]
#4007817 - 04/03/05 05:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
agar said: Don't mean to rain on the parade..... BUT...follow along, a moment.
Rez-effect with verm saturated in nutriant rich solution, will simply cause that verm to be colonized by myc & become part of the substrate.
What is a "cake' after all, but verm & water with minor amounts of BRF nutes mixed in the solution. Cakes certainly colonize.
I have soaked straight verm in various nutriant laden solutions. It will colonize, just fine - without anything else added.
jeah agar it will be colonised but take a moment and think again. b/c of the high water content of the liquid nute solution, besides supplying additional nutes there will be water supplied along the way keeping the original rez effect idea up - but throwing in that extra nute power 
in my eyes, i repeat, it could proove to be really usefull  peace ohm
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fresh313
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4007927 - 04/03/05 07:24 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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agar, that IS the point of the rez-effect, is that the verm colonizes and supplies additional water and also extends the quantity of substrate
of course it will colonize just fine?? hes doin an experiment to see if it colonizes better.
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ohmatic
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: fresh313]
#4007939 - 04/03/05 07:46 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
fresh313 said: agar, that IS the point of the rez-effect, is that the verm colonizes and supplies additional water and also extends the quantity of substrate
of course it will colonize just fine?? hes doin an experiment to see if it colonizes better.
you misread agar's post in a minor detail, hes pointing out that originally the rez simply supplies water to the grains that can be pulled from the verm during fruiting and therefor promoting bigger and healthier fruits.
the deal is, ill try to not only give them water but jet some nutes aswell to maybe double the use of the verm, by making the mush be even happier 
anyway, i just did step one and simmered peels from 2 kg of potatoes yesterday on the stove for ~2 hours while watching a dvd and the resulting strained liquid is looking pretty yellow brownish but does not contain a lot of potatoe mush as one could expect from the 2hrs simmering
b/c the peels prooved to be way harder to mush up than potatoes and therefor were exposed to a longer "nute leeching".
itll be documented and photographed a bit later, too lazy atm  peace ohm
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agar
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: fresh313]
#4007982 - 04/03/05 08:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
fresh313 said: agar, that IS the point of the rez-effect, is that the verm colonizes and supplies additional water and also extends the quantity of substrate
of course it will colonize just fine?? hes doin an experiment to see if it colonizes better.
Are you familiar with why 100% fully colonized "cakes" are dunked (submerged) in water for hours at a time, even overnight. It is to rehydrate them. You cannot simply pour water on a "cake" to rehydrate it. Because the water will run off the cake, as fast as you pour it on.
The same holds true for colonized grain substrates. Since it is basically a SOLID BLOCK of grain & mycelium, which does not absorb moisture with any rapidity.
Casing mixtures (top / bottom, or both) are designed to be nonnutritive (intentionally) so they WILL NOT COLONIZE. Because, uncolonized they impart are sponge like, and serve as a reservoir from which the mycelium can draw from at a rate mycelium can absorb moisture naturally - without harming itself.
Are you familiar with OVERLAY, often caused by direct misting, or application of to much water. That is when mycelia die, and form a hide over a substrate protecting it from that excess moisture. There has to be a bridge - between the two that, will serve as a spongy nonnutritive reservoir from which mycelium can draw from at a rate that it can absorb naturally. Otherwise, it dies & overlays.
If a casing mixture (top / bottom, or both) is nutritive, and fully colonized, because it is covered with mycelium like a rain coat, it no longer has the same absorption capacity of uncolonized vermiculite, to hydrate almost instantly. In effect, the bridge doesn't exist.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4008102 - 04/03/05 09:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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My theory is you should dunk your cakes between flushes, and fill the reservoir with a thick liquid malt extract from a beer brewing store/website (no vermiculite).
Combining the water and nutes will just dilute it to the point that it will easily contaminate. A thick syrup will be much more difficult to contam, but should still be absorbable by the mycelium.
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scatmanrav
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"If a casing mixture (top / bottom, or both) is nutritive, and fully colonized, because it is covered with mycelium like a rain coat, it no longer has the same absorption capacity of uncolonized vermiculite, to hydrate almost instantly. In effect, the bridge doesn't exist. "
Agar...I believe you seem to think the point of the nutrient verm is to apply it to the top or bottom of the casing as a casing layer...the "rez effect" is taking 3 quarts of colonized millet, bird seed, whatever...and 3 quarts of sterile moist verm...then mixing the two all together. If that sterile moist verm, was moistened using nute water..it should help within the substrate..shouldnt it? It doesnt matter if this fully colonizes...it kind of mixes the cake and casing idea...just like a cake...the casing can now be dunked and rehydrated...unlike normal whole grains, if you just cased the 3 quarts of colonized grain, it wouldnt reabsorb moisture very easy.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: scatmanrav]
#4008173 - 04/03/05 10:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
scatmanrav said: "If a casing mixture (top / bottom, or both) is nutritive, and fully colonized, because it is covered with mycelium like a rain coat, it no longer has the same absorption capacity of uncolonized vermiculite, to hydrate almost instantly. In effect, the bridge doesn't exist. "
This has long since been proven not to be a problem, otherwise dunking and the drinking straw tek would not work.
Vermiculite in the rezervoir is pointless.
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scatmanrav
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Sorry, I disagree. I've dunked whole grains with no verm mixed in...and whole grains mixed half and half with verm when I cased. Dunking the whole grains with no verm in the substrate...does very little. It washes off the old casing, and spores and the substrate absorbs a little moisture...but when I dunk 3 quarts of rye that was mixed with 3 quarts of verm... First, second, and third flush was bigger in the substrate containing 3 quarts of rye and 3 quarts of verm, compared to the casing sitting next to it, with only 3 quarts of rye. There were no more nutes in the casing next to it, yet it still performed better to begin with and rehydrated better. I think had the verm been nutritious, it may have helped even more. It may not...it may cause the verm to colonize fully (instead of just coating it if soaked in plain water?), squeezing the moisture holding ability out of it as agar seems to feel it will...I'm not so sure though.
Sorry theres so much negative reaction to your experiment ohm, I still believe in it Hmmmm...I just had a though...IF the shrooms do fruit from the verm soaked in nute water...wouldnt they be hydroponic shrooms
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: scatmanrav]
#4008247 - 04/03/05 11:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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You might be right about mixing verm in with the grains, but I still hold that putting verm in the reservoir is pointless.
The mycelium would colonize the verm, but not a hole full of thick syrup.
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ohmatic
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its lovely to see the discussion evolving  ill weight the potatoe peels and make a pic of the nute water. peace ohm
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scatmanrav
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4008344 - 04/03/05 11:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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You might be right about mixing verm in with the grains, but I still hold that putting verm in the reservoir is pointless.
The mycelium would colonize the verm, but not a hole full of thick syrup. --------------------------------------
You seem to be under the assumption that agar might be...that the rez effect is either a bottom layer of verm, or a top layer of verm.
The link mentions a bottom layer, but the real point in the link and the rez effect is the verm being mixed with the substrate...expanding the water holding ability of something...often done in plant soil (mix soil, verm, and perlite in 1:1:1 ratio ect)...it is not putting a bottom layer, or creating an actual reservior of any sort, its not "creating a reservor" but the "rez effect"..theres a difference.
Edited by scatmanrav (04/03/05 12:26 PM)
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: scatmanrav]
#4008359 - 04/03/05 11:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh, you're right. I was thinking of the reservoir tek.
What I have done there is just float my casings instead of submerging them.
That way the top doesn't get wet, and the casing layer is unaffected.
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RogerRabbit
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Since anno hasn't noticed the dan quayle spelling error yet, allow me to correct it.
Incorrect: Potatoe Correct: Potato
Sorry ohm my friend, couldn't resist! RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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ohmatic
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Since anno hasn't noticed the dan quayle spelling error yet, allow me to correct it.
Incorrect: Potatoe Correct: Potato
Sorry ohm my friend, couldn't resist! RR

peace ohm
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fresh313
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: agar]
#4008640 - 04/03/05 01:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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cakes != casing
.. it is not a solid block, the colonized grains are mixed with field capacity verm.
not talking about the casing layers.
did you know what rez effect meant before you started posting?
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ohmatic
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: fresh313]
#4008806 - 04/03/05 02:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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well now i need help from the OMC.
in order to make this test really "valid" ill need various information on potatoes and the other to be used substances, so i can create equally "nutritious" mixes.
like say, i used these 400grams of potatoe peels for the potatoe water, how much honey do i have to stirr in say 500ml of water to get the same "ammount" worth of nutes i can expect to have in my potatoe broth.
allright omc, start rolling peace ohm
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agar
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: fresh313]
#4009584 - 04/03/05 06:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
fresh313 said: cakes != casing
not talking about the casing layers.
did you know what rez effect meant before you started posting?
I just got back online (after a late night).
First post in this thread:
"nute's to be used will be: boiled straw water boiled manure water boiled potatoe water alc free beer (already did and worked great)
so im going to do various casings using the exact same ammount of grains and verm, but using different additions for the verm."
CASING is not SUBSTRATENor is "substrate" "casing".
After my reply in this thread, ScatHERE Quote "Agar...I believe you seem to think the point of the nutrient verm is to apply it to the top or bottom of the casing as a casing layer...the "rez effect" is taking 3 quarts of colonized millet, bird seed, whatever...and 3 quarts of sterile moist verm...then mixing the two all together.If that sterile moist verm, was moistened using nute water..it should help within the substrate..shouldnt it? It doesnt matter if this fully colonizes...it kind of mixes the cake and casing idea...just like a cake...the casing can now be dunked and rehydrated...unlike normal whole grains, if you just cased the 3 quarts of colonized grain, it wouldnt reabsorb moisture very easy. " End QUOTE
Which tells me (even though Scat also refers to "Casing" & "Substrate" as the SAME THING
I was refering to CASING because the lead thread refers to "CASING".
Okay..... OKAY. I realize NOW. You all are refering to SUBSTRATE & using verm in it that, is fortified with nutriants.
HELL YES I have hydrated/fortified verm with all sorts of mini/micro/macro nutriant solutions (since day 1 of my bulk Op's). Then added that fortified verm to a bulk substrate. It CERTAINLY helps in adding more minin/micro/macro nutriants & moisture to a SUBSTRATE. Adding the same to a "CASING" would simply F/U the purpose of a "casing" cover. So, I was talking about CASING, when everyone else was about SUBSTRATE. Me bad , for not realizing that until I logged on today.
As for "CASING" covers. About the same time, I posted this in the newbie forum. Which may also be of interest here:
COFFIN CASING & HYDRO-PUMPING
By "coffin casing", I mean a layer of non-nutritive (pH adjusted vermiculite & peat) sterilized casing mixture covering the complete top, bottom, and sides of a substrate.
One first covers the bottom, and sides of a sanitized container tray with the casing mixture, then add the substrate (which should include optimal delayed release nutrients), then add spawn, and incubate it.
Once the substrate is 100% colonized, complete the coffin by first adding a single layer of sterilized, or boiled (and allowed to cool) polyester spun-bond landscape cloth directly over the top of the substrate.
Then cover that with the same thickness of pasteurized non-nutritive casing cover used on the sides, and underneath it. In effect, you create a contaminate barrier, and moisture reservoir that completely surrounds the substrate on all sides.
The purpose of laying a polyester spun-bond landscape cloth directly over the top of the substrate is as a strong porous barrier between the two, which rhizomorphic threads of mycelium can easily bridge/grow through to the surface, from the actual substrate mass beneath.
When harvesting fruit bodies, the landscape cloth will not allow you to dislodge pieces of the actual substrate from its main body, creating a possible contamination vector. After harvesting, you simply patch any area where the casing cover was dislodged, with more of the same.
Other benefits of "coffin casing" are this. As the substrate produces mushrooms, it shrinks, and pulls away from the sides of the tray. When this occurs, one simply fills those voids with more of the same casing mixture. So-as-to increase the total moisture retention, and distributing capacity of the whole coffin casing structure.
Coffin cased substrates are also amenable to "Hydro-Pumping" type hydration, with a capped small bore aseptic plastic tube with fine holes along its (covered) length laid intermixed in the bottom casing cover, with another capped end extending outside the substrate tray.
One simply alters a pump action type spray mist bottle to accept that tubing. As such, small incremental amounts of sterile water can be pumped directly into the bottom of the coffin casing mixture, as needed. As this hydration system is "closed", it minimizes airborne contamination vectors.
Cased substrate in optimal conditions lose very little moisture via evaporation. The primary moisture loss is due to the formation of fruit bodies, which consist of approximately 90% water by weight.
By immediately weighing harvested mushroom crops, It is simple to calculate how much water they contain. By the same methodology, it is as simple to determine the approximate amount of water that should be replaced.
Thoughts from agar, the idiot savant myco-farmer
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fresh313
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: agar]
#4010281 - 04/03/05 08:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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its all good in the hood
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ohmatic
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: agar]
#4011041 - 04/03/05 11:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
agar said: Thoughts from agar, the idiot savant myco-farmer
ahahahaha 
sorry bout the confusion mate, i was all about adding the nute'd verm to the grains ofcoz 
i wonder, b/c u already tried that, what u found to work best? peace ohm
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agar
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4011768 - 04/04/05 05:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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1. Compost tea, (2)cattle manure tea (NOT BAGGED OR STORE BOUGHT), (3)horse manure tea (or combo of all). If you can find kelp or seaweed meal - throw a bit in a blender - pulse a few times & add to any of the above & a tiny bit of bone meal, along with a very small amount (like 1 OZ) of vegatable oil.
You can also fine grind brown rice, rye, wbs, sunflower seeds or rape - canola seed(provides oils)& add that to any tea combo.
Another way is to soak ground corn cob (pet bedding about the size of unpopped pop corn)in a tea combo, then simmer the hell out of it in tea & add that to verm mix. It absorbs slow & releases slow.
If all else is optimal......Doing so with any of the above really adds to potency, size & overall harvest weights 

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Edited by agar (04/04/05 06:23 AM)
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ohmatic
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: agar]
#4011825 - 04/04/05 06:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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thx for the input. peace ohm
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AnOddLittlePlace
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4011997 - 04/04/05 08:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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ohm what grains will you be using? I believe in the rez effect thread he uses wbs, but I was curious about rye. I have a some quart jars full of rye colonizing so I was just curious for my grows sake if u knew about rye and the rez effects method.
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ohmatic
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Quote:
AnOddLittlePlace said: ohm what grains will you be using? I believe in the rez effect thread he uses wbs, but I was curious about rye. I have a some quart jars full of rye colonizing so I was just curious for my grows sake if u knew about rye and the rez effects method.
the type of grain to be mixed with the verm iteself is not the key role as the additional water in the verm will be drawn out regardless if u use rye or wbs or some other grain.
im going to use a mix of both, 2 parts rye and one part millet. peace ohm
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scatmanrav
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4012689 - 04/04/05 12:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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When I refer to "dunking the casing" I mean, the whole thing, after a flush..in water. I stop calling it substrate once the casing layer is applied..sorry bout that I'm still a newbie..gimmie a break
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!


Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: agar]
#4015962 - 04/05/05 05:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I like that coffin method agar! 
But what is a "polyester spun-bond landscape cloth "?
MF
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agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Quote:
MushroomFriend said: I like that coffin method agar! 
But what is a "polyester spun-bond landscape cloth "?
MF
It is polyfil (polyester) fiber that is made into a thin piece of nonwoven cloth. Sort of like Tyvek, except very porous to both air & water. It is used as a weed barrier in landscaping.
You can cover freshly turned soil with it, then cover the landscape cloth with mulch. Grass, plants & weeds cannot pass or grow though the landscape cloth. But, it allows air & moisture to pass through.
For instance, a long narrow row of fine flowering roses (or any ornimental plants) along a border area can be kept weed free by using this type landscape cloth over the soil & under a mulch.
Air, fertilizer & water can pass through the cloth & mulch to the plants you want to thrive & weeds are cannot invade or grow out. You simply make a hole through the cloth for any plant you want to grow.
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!


Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: ohmatic]
#4016024 - 04/05/05 05:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hmm thanks, will check the coffin method out in the future! 
MF
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AnOddLittlePlace
Novice Grower


Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 234
Loc: Tumble down shack in Bigf...
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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thanks ohmatic =)
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My mind was wandering like the wild geese in the West.
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agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Quote:
MushroomFriend said: Hmm thanks, will check the coffin method out in the future! 
MF
You can DO IT ----- without the landscape cloth, also.
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!


Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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Re: rez-effect revised [Re: agar]
#4017879 - 04/05/05 02:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, sure I can but I like its function. I had 2 tubs where some of the substrate (straw, little poo) came upp with the mushrooms whenharvesting. The only contam entering the 'bulk-castle' was in such a harmed casinglayer.
So I would like to use it, also without the casing coffin-style! 

MF
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