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Offlineradio879
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addition of DMT experiment - couple q's
    #4003973 - 04/02/05 07:41 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I have a friend of a friend of a friend who may be able to add any quantity of DMT he wants next time he grows. 

First, i'm assuming making the DMT into the Hcl salt first would be good so its more stable/etc.

So, would it be better to just add DMT Hcl to the water/substrate before sterilizing? (as the hcl salt it should handle this), or add it to the casing layer when they are going to fruit? Is too much DMT added going to be bad in any way? (like, 100mg good for a pint size jar, or would 2-300mg work possibly even better)

DMT supply isn't the problem so i'm not worried about wasting DMT if some extra was put in, but i'd like to see just how much more potent these mushrooms can get :smile:.

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/7936
^^
there's something saying he added some root bark and could barely handle 0.3g dried shrooms because the potency was so strong, this sounds good to me i'm soooo suprised ya'll haven't jumped on this a long time ago :smile:.

I've got enough DMT to wipe my ass with.. but i dont have access to cheap mounds of psilocin/cybin.  This sounds like the way to go.


Edited by radio879 (04/02/05 08:49 AM)


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Offlineo0brandnewcolony
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: radio879]
    #4004373 - 04/02/05 11:57 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You would need to add it to the substrate in my opinion, and give it a good while to colonize. At least a week after it appears fully colonized.

You would be wasting DMT IMO if you used it in the casing layer, since a proper casing wouldn't really colonize that layer all that much.


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Offlineradio879
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: o0brandnewcolony]
    #4032083 - 04/08/05 08:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Another thought..

There are species of plants like acacia maidenii that contain like 1/3 NMT and 2/3 DMT, if you used one of these with a lot of (or some) N-methyltryptamine you may be able to get some potent shrooms with a lot of baeocystin content. (if there is 4-PO-NMT would there be 4-hydroxy-NMT too?)


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: radio879]
    #4032198 - 04/08/05 09:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

DMT Crystals are in freebase form, they are non polar, and arent active orally, even with an MAOI.

you dont have DMT HCL because even shulgin can't get DMT into its pure HCL form. however a DMT HCL solution (tea) can be made from a few different plant sources, which is most commonly known as the ayahuasca tea.

Even if your mushrooms managed to have DMT in them, it wouldnt be active without an MAOI. I have no idea what infusing your substrate with either the freebase or the HCL tea will do to the chemical content of the mushroom.


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Offline4hodmt
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: Abermelin]
    #4032250 - 04/08/05 09:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ummm, you can get DMT into Hcl form, and i do believe shulgin did it. It makes spectacular large crystals. i believe you dissolve the freebase in chloroform, add Hcl and then add ether to the mix and the crystals spontaneously form in the ether. then u filter and wash.


the whole idea he is going for though is not to get DMT into the mushrooms themselves, but to have the fungus convert the surplus DMT into it's 4-hydroxy ester, which is that molecule we all know and love; psicolin. giving it these copious stores of DMT is what gives the shrooms the high potency.

I believe that you can add just tryptamine to the mix and get the same results however.

I think that the best way to do this though is add the powdered root bark of your choice to your brown rice flour. preferably mimosa hostilis root bark powder.



ahh, the ways we can live better through chemistry  :tongue: :grin:


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Offlineradio879
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: 4hodmt]
    #4032487 - 04/08/05 10:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I have made DMT Hcl once it was in fact a non crystal 'goo', in tihkal shulgin talks about it being difficult - anyway, yes you can just have a solution of dmt hcl in water.

I'm thinking the same thing, maybe just adding the ground up root bark to the substrate is plenty good enough - so then, no extraction necessary, mimosa root bark is CHEAP, by the way... :wink:.

I read somewhere i forget where at about someone adding the ground bark to the substrate and having mushrooms so potent 0.3g was enough for a full trip.  Damn, experiments should be done! :smile:

(mimosa hostilis root bark contains anywhere from around 0.6% - up to 2% DMT by weight, the stuff I get from one company is REAL good and seems to be around 1.2-1.5% which is incredible)


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: radio879]
    #4033917 - 04/09/05 12:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

its funny you should mention that radio, cause i made something similar when i took some freebase, threw it in some water, added a drop of HCL, and eneded up with a plate of gooey crystals that wouldnt dry under any conditions, in fact they acted as a desiccant. I never ingested it though cause i wasnt sure what i had made.

But yeah, if your going to use DMT in cakes, use the mimosa root bark as its the most potent you can easily get your hands on. using extracted or synth'd DMT is kind of a waste of rare and expensive material, unless of course you extract it yourself.

but theirs still an inkling of doubt in me that mycellium would react negatively to a non polar (and slightly caustic) molecule like DMT freebase.

Quote:

i believe you dissolve the freebase in chloroform, add Hcl and then add ether to the mix and the crystals spontaneously form in the ether. then u filter and wash.




So your saying you add DMT to choloroform instead of water, both of which being great polar solvents, add the HCL like mentioned before, then get the DMT in its now polar form to absorb back into the petr. ether, a non polar solvent? i dont think DMT HCL will dissolve in a NP solvent, thats why in the intial stages of a DMT extraction you can do Defattings with a NP solvent and not extract any of the goodies out.

i might need a second opinion on that. Im pretty sure DMT HCL crystals are water retaining, so theirs no way to actually get a clean dry crystal you speak of.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: radio879]
    #4039941 - 04/11/05 04:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think that the best way, to confirm, would be to make a small tray of compost/straw plus DMT crystals. The mixture would be pasteurized in the oven so that none of the DMT crystals would be leeched out in stove-top large amount of water pasteurization. I'd say 2-3 grams of DMT would be an overkill, and somewhat costly, but would DEFINATLY be enough, if some reaction did occur. If three times as much DMT existed in the substrate and was hydroxylated to 4-ho-dmt (psilocin), you'd still be faced with the question of whether or not the final fruitbody products would have more psilly juice. If a regular, known dose did not elicit a much stronger responce (a jump of at least 2 "levels", from an experienced tripped would be enough to convince me of some difference in the subjective quality of them), then I'd say it's bullshit. Good luck.


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Offlinestevo
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: SoopaX]
    #4050233 - 04/13/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I thought mushrooms didn't like salt? A friend of a friend has tried adding a fairly concentrated tea made from desmanthus root bark in place of the water normally mixed in with the jars before sterilizaiton and noted a definate increase in potency.


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: stevo]
    #4051206 - 04/13/05 05:48 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

this thread seems to go along the same lines of http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4038727/an/0/page/0

about vitamins and such. im sure you can add a bunch of shit to your substrate to make it more potent. i would still recommend using ayahuasca in place of pure DMT.


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Offlinecaptmueller
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: radio879]
    #4051505 - 04/13/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)


i would love to see some sources for that info on the mimosa/dmt percentage....cause the best info ive found was much much lower.....1%at the top..and around .57 is the average....show me the way to this very powerful mimosa

namaste,

captmueller


(mimosa hostilis root bark contains anywhere from around 0.6% - up to 2% DMT by weight, the stuff I get from one company is REAL good and seems to be around 1.2-1.5% which is incredible)




Edited by captmueller (04/13/05 06:59 PM)


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Offlineradio879
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: captmueller]
    #4052172 - 04/13/05 10:22 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

^^^
I will try and find the reference later as i dont have time (i shouldnt be on teh damn computer now anyway), i have read a couple places on teh net that it can be anywhere from .57% (or near that) up to 2% (probably very rare), but i know one thing - I used to get my mimosa from one company, and it was closer to the .5-.7% range, now i get it from a different company, and i'm getting over double the amount of DMT during each extraction, I just ordered more hopefully its the same stuff!

Oh, and I have been told (although I did not eat them myself but trust the source) that mushrooms were grown with added DIPT HCl in the substrate resulting in shrooms with an iprocin/psilo mix that did work, - and supposedly was liked (the trip) by people.  So I would think adding DMT (freebase or HCl? wouldnt the HCl since its more water soluble get more easily spread around also? i dunno) would have to also increase psilocin content. 

If i had the time/room/space, i'd do some experimenting with all of this, such as.. say.. 20 jars, use varying amounts of DMT in each, some extracted DMT made into its HCl salt, some with just ground up bark (left as freebase), etc etc and see if i could figure out some limit to how much DMT you can add to make it the most potent etc. and if the HCl salt would work better blah blah blah.  Very interesting to find out what 'works' best to get the most potent outcome.

Actually i'd love to add some DIPT maybe even AMT to a couple jars and see what happens (4-ho-amt?), fun fun fun shit :smile:.


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Offlinedumbsnake34
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: Abermelin]
    #4052935 - 04/14/05 02:19 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Abermelin said:
So your saying you add DMT to choloroform instead of water, both of which being great polar solvents, add the HCL like mentioned before, then get the DMT in its now polar form to absorb back into the petr. ether, a non polar solvent? i dont think DMT HCL will dissolve in a NP solvent, thats why in the intial stages of a DMT extraction you can do Defattings with a NP solvent and not extract any of the goodies out.





no dude, he is saying that when you add the petr. ether which is miscible with CHCl3, it will cause crystals to precipitate out because it will reduce the effective polarity of the solvent. This however isn't the ideal way to do it. It would be better to heat the mixture upadding petr ether. Keep everything hot and all the DMT dissolved then cool it down. This should cause crystals to form. This is standard recrystalization procedure that any chemist should know. The key is to use a combination of solvents. One solvates very well where the other doesn't. But adding the petroleum ether to the solution will cause the DMT to fall out forming crystals. They just won't be as pure as possible.


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OfflineAbermelin
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: dumbsnake34]
    #4054014 - 04/14/05 11:40 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

pet ether isnt entirely miscible with CHCL3 ( thats chloroform right? ). chloro is polar, pet ether is non polar. only a small amount is miscible since their polarities arent completely opposite.

but yeah, recystallization is much better. its not necessary to use chloroform for the process of DMT extraction.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: dumbsnake34]
    #4054784 - 04/14/05 02:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

In reference to most of the chemistry talk in this thread:

You're all totally lost and horribly confused. Everyone is talking about different things and none of them make sense. Unfortunately, I'm too tired to explain it to you so you'll just have to figure it out for your self.

DMT HCl is NOT easy to isolate and recrystallization has nothing (or very little) to do with its preparation. DMT easily forms other salts; this is not a big deal.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #4063444 - 04/16/05 10:11 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

DMT didn't form crystals that well for me, just a forced air evaporation of naptha. A/B, digital pH meter, separatory funnel.  I used HCl(aq) and it was very easy to isolate.  I pulled the DMT from the base solution with VM&P naptha, a few washes, combined the naptha, and evaporated it.  I then poured ice cold water over it to absorb anything non-product that could have been clinging to the process. Vacuum filtered and dried.  I didn't know what solvent or temps to recrystallize with and I really didn't care that much. Worked great :smile:


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OfflineJaguarWarrior101
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: SoopaX]
    #4066522 - 04/17/05 10:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Here's a list of some well known DMT containing plants:

1)Acacia spp. (Maiden's Wattle)
2)Anadenanthera spp. (Yopo)
3)Desmanthus illinoensis (Bundle Flower)
4)Phalaris grass (reed canary grass)
5)Psychotria viridis
6)Mimosa hostilis (Jurema)
7)Virola spp. (Epe?a)
8)Diplopterys cabrerana (Chagro-panga)
9)Arundo donax (Giant River Reed}

Now as to which contains the most DMT I don't know, but would love to find out if any of you know or has some information.
I think I read Phalaris Arundinacea (reed canary grass) has very high amounts, in which case would be great for me, as it grows not far from my house.


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Offlineradio879
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: JaguarWarrior101]
    #4066840 - 04/18/05 12:11 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well i can say that Mimosa hostilis contains a lot of DMT and its easy and cheap to get. There are many sites listing mimosa to contain 0.57% DMT, but in reality I think that this is on the low side, because it varies a LOT. I think good numbers to go by are anywhere from about 0.6-2% DMT by weight, but i've even read that mimosa containing 3% of DMT has been found.

This is what I use to extract DMT myself.. I used to get it from one supplier, and the yields per 100g bark were usually around 600-800mg. Well now I found a supplier just as cheap, and i'm getting almost twice as much! More like 1.2g-1.6g per 100g bark (it does vary a little), which is really great.

So it can vary a lot what company you get it from, and even from batch to batch, but this is a great source of DMT.

--
I have a q about the ph of the substrate water.. is it OK to have the water a little on the acetic side? I'm wondering because if one were to add ground up bark (or extracted DMT) to substrate, but wanted the DMT to be in its HCl salt form, it would be easy to add a few drops of HCl acid to the water then dump your DMT in (or ground up bark).


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Offlinecaptmueller
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: radio879]
    #4066976 - 04/18/05 12:57 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

dude, which extraction tek are you using ? those are wicked yeilds


namaste,

captmueller


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OfflineBladeLSD
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Re: addition of DMT experiment - couple q's [Re: radio879]
    #4067009 - 04/18/05 01:05 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I agree about their being lots of chemistry talk, and Im confused, and I shouldnt be... but anyways reed canary does has DMT some vary more than others it grows all over where i live, the only problem is it also contains 5-meo-DMT and what sucks is you think your smoking 50mg of dmt..., well you get the picture, stick with mimosa or desmathus, from most supplier mimosa has about the same as desmathus ive tried the extraction several times with both before and unless your using the high quality inner root bark of mimosa, then just go pull up the bundle weed if you can. I cant seem to find it anywhere anymore. As for putting DMT hcl into a jar, its been done, and works to increase potency, 50mg per jar is plenty anymore is waste and in afoaf experiments doesnt produce a significant enough increase to be worth the precious DMT instead of using 200mg of dmt hcl per jar just put 50 and snort the rest, if your talking about pure dmt that is... slightly acidic is fine for cakes my friend says


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