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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Autoclave, Dehydrator, Paul Stamets, Pressure Cooker, Rye Grain, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed

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Offlinedjsage420
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Whats up with rye?
    #4002081 - 04/01/05 09:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

My last batch of jars (12) only two jars colonized without contam, this time I made 8 jars and everyone has wetspot, my TiT setup reeks to high heaven, this time I was way more sterile I even built a glovebox does anyone else have thease problems? this is very frustrating because all I read is how rye is superior to other grains Im thinking of going back to rice, or maybe trying wbs or popcorn.


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InvisibleRoadkill
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: djsage420]
    #4002100 - 04/01/05 09:13 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

sounds like they got a bacterial contam.

your Rye tek needs tweeking.

which Rye tek did you follow?


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Invisiblepoboy
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Re: Whats up with rye? *DELETED* [Re: Roadkill]
    #4002114 - 04/01/05 09:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by poboy

Reason for deletion: d



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Offlinedjsage420
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: poboy]
    #4002196 - 04/01/05 09:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

No I dont soak and simmer, (roadkill) I dont use a tek found here all of the rye teks I found didnt have enough water so I carefully found the right levels, I use 100 ml rye and 120 ml water and a pinch of cal carb, should I try the soak and simmer tek?


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InvisibleBurke Dennings

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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: djsage420]
    #4002217 - 04/01/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

DEFINITELY. Soak it for 24 hours, then simmer for half an hour. Rinse and drain nicely, and then sterilize. It's the best way to use rye. I've NEVER had a contam or water issue using this method.


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: djsage420]
    #4002253 - 04/01/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Rye isn't really "superior to other grains". It's just the traditional grain medium that's been used for years. WBS is a bit easier if you're just looking to spawn to bulk. I use WBS for gourmet cultures as well and it's a heck of a lot easier than fussing with rye.

What are you looking to do anyways, fruit it straight or spawn to bulk?


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Offlinedjsage420
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4002272 - 04/01/05 10:07 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Since Im not a huge producer of shrooms nor need to be since I only trip maybe every 3 months I just case my jars in small trays, Im kinda new to casing and Im trying my hardest to produce from it, Ive had 2 casings with no success I figured out why, I wasnt adding enough water to my pearlite and it was getting too dry,I have premordia forming on my current casing and humidity is high just trying my hardest to be patient here
and diver that pic you have on your signature is fuckin awesome man,


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Offlinemushroommark
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4002276 - 04/01/05 10:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Diver, asked the key question. ^^^^^^ :thumbup:

It all depends on what you want to do with it.  If you're doing bulk, once you try WBS, soaked for 24 hours and drained WELL, you won't go back to rye, IME.

However, if casing you straight grains, then rye definately has superior yields and fruit size.  However, mixing in some soaked WBS with you simmered rye does all some of the "wetter" rye and "dryer" WBS to mingle, and it all evens out. :smile:

I've noticed as well with rye that sometimes I will get a whole batch that just contams for no apparent reason.  (I haven't used WBS enough to say it won't do the same occasionally)  But rye seems particularly suscepiticle (SP?) to getting wet spots and bacterial contams.

Just my 0.02 :wink:

mushymark


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: mushroommark]
    #4002306 - 04/01/05 10:16 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the comment, I took the pic this morning.  Definitely woke up to a nice suprise today, that's for sure  :mushroom2:

mushroommark made a good point that I was going to bring up:  Rye is better for straight fruiting.  Also, mushroommark, what you are noticing with rye contaminating is true in my experience also.  WBS is definitely more forgiving as far as contams go.

djsage420 try to get WBS under your belt, that's my suggestion.  It doesn't have the greatest moisture retention for several flushes in the world, but it definitely works straight.  Need a bottom casing layer of wet verm, as WBS cased dries out easily.


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Offlinedjsage420
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4002344 - 04/01/05 10:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

cool thx for the advise all I will try somthing different, Ill try soak and simmer and do my studying for wbs, if you look at TMC (stamets) he talks about rye like its the best thing to ever happen to cultivation, so I bought myself a shitload of rye and had to mail order it so I want to at least use it, seeing how I just got 20 syringes in the mail I have plenty to experiment with


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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: djsage420]
    #4002357 - 04/01/05 10:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Cool, then definitely use that rye up. Try a soak and simmer, it makes all the difference.


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OfflineFluxburn
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: Holydiver]
    #4003311 - 04/02/05 02:02 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I soak and simmer with wbs and it really helps to cut down bacteria infections. Just make sure not to cook them grains thou, then the grains expand much too large and break the shell.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: djsage420]
    #4003412 - 04/02/05 02:36 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I've used both rye and WBS. WBS is fine in jars, but if you want to pack huge spawn bags like I do, WBS does not work as well as rye. Rye breaths better than WBS. Rye is also drier on the outside than WBS which is probably why it is less prone to bacterial contamination in large bags.


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Offlineakpsyco
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4003535 - 04/02/05 03:10 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I just wanna say i like electrodes pic and Indiana Jones is fuckin tight


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: akpsyco]
    #4004192 - 04/02/05 10:38 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Heres what I do for grain prep. Its still being worked on though so if you see anything that?s wrong, unclear, or missing..feel free to let me know. It?ll probably take some editing but for now?

This is a combo of things I?ve taken from all over, but most of this I learned from Magash and then tweaked with some things from RodgerRabbit, myself, and others. Hope it helps

First thing for grain prep is deciding if you?re going to be spawning with it, or fruiting with it. If you?re fruiting with it, then I would suggest the soak/simmer method. Spawning works better when the grains are a bit drier though so a soak is enough. This write up is to deal with grain prep for fruiting. Skip to the notes if your spawning with it.

First thing to do is get the grains soaking. Rye/WBS combo is the best to use IMO. It gives the shrooms more nutes that they wouldn?t have had otherwise. Rye is also the better of the two grains when fruiting off of it IME, so this is why I do what I do. You can do as much or as little as you want, make the choice depending on how much you need and how much time you have. I have a scooper that I know, after time using it, that it makes about 2 quarts, and it holds slightly less then a pound of rye. My PC holds 10 quarts (and a pint) at a time, so I base my numbers off of this and how much time to do runs I?ll have. Generally I?ll figure 3 PC runs for 30 quarts from 15 scoops which is about 13 pounds of grain, total. This also needs to account for some verm added in later so I make it more like 13 scoops.

As I said before, I believe rye is a better grain to fruit from, which is why I use mostly rye. For 13 scoops, I?d put about 10 scoops rye into a pot that will hold 4 times the amount of dry grain as you put in (don?t put more grain in a pot than it takes to go ? way up). Then in a bowl throw in 3 scoops of WBS. Fill both with water and after 24 hours it should look something like this (these are different amounts so it will vary):


It will get pretty bubbly and pretty sour stinky smelling. That?s the whole reason for the soak, is to germinate the spores/endospores within the substrate to make them easier to kill when you PC them. You want to be careful that you don?t soak for to little, or to long. 12-24 hours is fine, I like 24 the best. In that time, the grain needs to stay FULLY submerged or it may germinate. It may anyways, and at that point you?ll need to cut back on soak time. Partially germinated grain can be used, but if it?s to much, it?s better to just toss it and take the loss then spend your time and spores.

I find that simmering my rye, and just leaving the WBS after the 24 hour soak is best. Simmering WBS can lead to too many burst kernels and after a 24 hour soak, its got a good amount of moisture in it. Don?t worry, there will be plenty of moisture in everything else! Rye will get a ton of moisture. It expands to about 3 times its dry size when it has fully absorbed all the water it can. I do not drain anything yet! At this point, I have not drained, or rinsed anything, I never bother. Add some more water to make sure the grains fully covered with an inch or two over it. You may need to add more as it cooks, absorbs, and swells. Throw it on high until it starts bubbling then turn it down to medium to keep it bubbling. Check on it every so often and keep it fully submerged, bubbling VERY lightly, until you start to see a couple burst kernels. As soon as you do, turn the water off and let it sit on the burner for about 10 minutes.

As soon as you start the rye simmering, dump the WBS into a strainer. I use 4 PVC pieces attached with corner pieces with metal screen stretched over it attached with zip ties and left with slack for stuff to sit and strain:


Strain well (small strainer multiple times into a bucket or bowl or something works, just takes way longer..large strainers are available cheap too that are smaller then mine at Wal-Mart) by spreading it out over the strainer (or if using a small one, strain for a good amount of time) and letting it drip while the rye simmers. I really suggest a large strainer if your going to be doing bulk fruiting of grain!

Now, once the rye has been simmered to perfection (see description above), dump it out, right on top of the WBS, on the strainer (again small strainer works, but sucks) and DO NOT RINSE! The steam is important! A lot of people have a hard time getting water content right and it needs to be full of moisture (which you know it is because its now 3 times its size) but look dry on the outside. If you rinse it you have to wait an hour for it to drain and people get impatient and start loading up wet kernels. So just let it steam.


Grab a spoon (it?ll be slimy and greasy and nasty) and start mixing it around or start tossing it around if you and your strainer can take the weight being tossed around. I mix it around letting it all steam off and mixing in the WBS and rye really well. It takes about 5-10 minutes to mix it all in well and all that time its straining and steaming getting rid of excess water. Try and keep it spread out as much as possible and don?t mix to quickly..mix then allow it to steam until it stops, then mix more..give it a chance to steam and drain.

Now after about 10 minutes of mixing and steaming to add in verm to make up the rest of the substrate. You only want to add about 1-2 (or 3 or 4 if you want) quarts of DRY verm. I don?t measure it, I just pour until the mix looks right. It should look kind of dry..but you don?t want a bunch of dry verm in there so pour and mix and add a little at a time..you can always add more but its hard to remove some. Once all mixed up (still steaming a bit and draining a bit):


You can load it into jars at this point and PC for at least 60 minutes at 15 PSI. I do 60 minutes but my PC is usually running about 17-18 PSI. Some people do 90 minutes though just to be sure. If you?re doing lots of this stuff, it would be beneficial to try 60 minutes on a batch and go with it if contams aren?t a problem, you?ll save yourself lots of time.

Jar lids are simple. Two small holes poked in the top. I just stab the tops of the jars with a Phillips head screwdriver. No need for huge swings, just get a pointy screw driver and drive it in quick, straight and firm. It does leave edges below the lid so if your concerned with that and want to take the time, you can pick up a punch set that will punch the holes or drill them. I never had a problem with edges since I just put the tyvek over the lid.


Going to walmart and finding the perfect spoon to fit into jars is a benefit (if you don?t already have one). I made sure it would fit regular mouthed jars too just because I bought my town out of wide mouth jars and so I have a number of regular mouthed quarts that I had to buy. You can see it in the picture with the steaming grain. Scoop and load the jars up with grain, leaving room to shake. The harder you think it is for you to shake things well, the more room you should leave yourself. I can shake the hell out of something so I load mine pretty close to the top, especially considering I usually do grain to grain transfers (adds a bit more to the jar, always take that into account if it applies to you). Then goes the lid with the two holes, a square piece of tyvek, the ring (band) and then screw on firm, but not to tight..it?ll help getting them off later if they aren?t tight when you PC them.


While the first run of jars is PCing you can continue loading up the jars for the next two runs. After you have PCed them for 60 minutes at 15 PSI (the 60 minutes only counts when the PC is at 15 PSI or over), turn off the stove and remove the PC from the burner. Don?t force cool it, just go sit and chill and smoke a bone or something. Once the pressure has dropped below 5 PSI you can open whatever valve you have and then open the PC..that usually takes about 30 minutes. Remove the jars and shake them up well USING MITS and tighten the band down (no need to prove how tight you can get it, just make sure its on good). They will look kind of slimey and a little wet, don?t worry about it unless you have standing water, which if you followed this, I don?t see how you could. Set the jars off to the side to cool till tomorrow. If you decide to force cool things at these steps, be warned that it may result in failure! Following directions exactly will get you more assured results. This doesn?t mean it doesn?t work, its just not good practices. In the long run doing huge runs like this, force cooling or not waiting long enough will hurt you more then help you.

Inoculate the next day. If you did everything right, the jars can be kept for weeks or months before use, though its best to use as quickly as possible. Then you incubate them until fully colonized and case them. You can fruit these as cakes (if made in ? pints or pints), but it doesn?t work SO hot.


NOTES
If you want to use straight WBS to fruit with, it will work fine. I suggest the 24 hour soak and strain the same way. After straining spread out well in the strainer, mix in verm until the kernels look dry-ish as described and shown above. You could also simmer it for about 10 minutes before straining and treat it as rye above.

If you are unsure of a contaminated syringe or if you get contaminations and you aren?t sure if it?s the way you make the jars, or something your doing after you PC them, keep a jar or few without putting anything in them. If its your jar preparation, these control jars will contaminate. If they don?t, then it was either your inoculation procedures, contaminated syringe (or whatever), or incubation practices (this is a rare one if the jars were made and sealed correctly during inoculation).

TYVEK is not a paper material. It is a plastic that will withstand the PC process. It will not allow contams to pass through it, but gases can. We use them to allow GAS exchange (not air exchange which is introducing fresh air during fruiting). Gas exchange is the release of excess gases that mycelium releases. No form of air flow is needed during incubation, other then these holes to be clear to allow gases to escape. Tyvek can be found free at your post office or here and they deliver for free too.

If you are just spawning to bulk, the process is much easier. I use straight WBS, soaked for 24 hours. Strain well and mix with verm if the outsides of the kernels still look a little wet. Then load into jars and PC as described above.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4004431 - 04/02/05 12:20 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I like scatmanrav write up! But I do disagree or have other comments about a few areas. First, I never think rye smells stinky in the soak. To me that smell is a wonderful smell. Of course, after you've been growing awhile, you think aged manure smells good too, so maybe you should ignore what I'm saying since I like the smell of aged manure too.

Secondly, the dry vermiculite is one way to balance the moisture. Another way is to mixed dehydrated manure. I use Buffalo Steve's sifted manure for that (look him up on Ebay), but you can use any dehydrated manure just as well. In any case, just use it like you would the vermiculite. It'll add a little nutrition where vermiculite won't and it gets the mycelium ready to eat manure if you're spawning bulk.

Third, I am a BIG advocate of spawn bags. For $60 you can get yourself set up for life. I know that's a lot of money, but how much money is it worth to save you hours of screwing up a batch? The sealer will run you about $30 on Ebay (get a 3-5mm seal width at 8" wide or more). It costs about $30 for 100 large spawn bags with breather patch. But what does it buy you? Those bags hold about 7 quarts or so of rye! You can literally DOUBLE the pack in your pressure cooker by using spawn bags over jars. They are easier to mix up (than shaking a jar). You don't have to worry about TYVEK material. Unlike popular belief, they do not require sterile conditions--just seal them deflated and they'll inflate in a few hours filtering the input air. Oh, and don't believe the myth that they melt touching the sides of the pressure cooker. Because I pack them up, mine always touch the sides and are separated from each other with some jar bands (don't let them touch each other or the steam will have trouble getting them hot enough). Pressure cook them for 3.5 hours and turn the cooker down so the weight isn't rocking or you'll excessively dry the inside of the bag. You need more pressure cook time because they are much larger than a jar and it takes time for the heat to make it to the center.

Lastly, I have not had luck with WBS straight in large bags. I think it packs too densely and tends to have bacterial problems in large spawn bags. It works great for jars, though. I also have not had luck with hard winter wheat. I tried it once and rye right next to it. The rye did fine but the wheat had bacterial problems. I did not soak, though, so maybe that caused it. I sometimes soak and sometimes not with rye but have never had any trouble either way. It's the best grain out there for large spawn bags in my opinion.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4004620 - 04/02/05 01:15 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

All great points.

Usually the verm...does get some nutes...since I mix it in dry...the water that it soaks up is rye/wbs water. Also I've been throwing about a cup of worm castings into the pots before I start the soak (h poo has to be shipped and isnt free or I'd use that and more of it. Interesting adding dried dung to the mix, hadnt thought of that. I tried some straw in the grain mix...caused water content problems and eventulally colonized, but took longer. I imagine dried poo would work, just not feasable for me, which is why I leave it out.

The smell thing, I add because some newbie always comes and posts "Why does my WBS/rye/whatever smell nasty"...trying to illiminate basic questions. Of course I'll probably end up starting new questions being asked like "My rye doesnt smell bad after a 24 hour soak, is it still good to use?"

Bags....I have had issues with. I have a sealer and tried some out and 10 of 10 bags contamed. I rarly get a jar contam. This was a while ago though, I made many mistakes, couldnt seal right..didnt use a double seal..didnt swab the bag or wipe it with alcohol before injecting..probably moved it while injecting too. I did some straw recently using a cap like this instead of selaing (also self healing injection "port") and it worked out fine...still bags have been a pain for me. That said...two days ago I recieved 100 (no filter) bags I ordered...because I am in need of trying them out..


Those are two liter bottle tops cut off (with lid, making two pcs)...bag in the threads and stuff hole that you cut in top with polyfil.

I've been wanting to order some buffalo shit from steve, talked to him a few weeks ago. Want to do some Pans on them instead of h poo since they're naturally found in buffalo feilds, but not horse feilds. Of course cubies will need to try some too...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4005183 - 04/02/05 04:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

scatmanrav, one thing about those spawn bags with grain are that they take a lot longer than jars to sterilize. I wouldn't go for less than 2 hours in a home pressure cooker and I recommend 3.5 hours to be safe, especially if you are packing the cooker like I do. Paul Stamets recommends 2 - 3 hours in _Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms_, but keep in mind that he's referring to time in a commercial autoclave and those often actively inject steam into the heap.

If you can stomach the price, I can't recommend Steve's shit enough. You can talk him down on shipping if you order a lot. The reason I like his manure is because it's totally free from rocks, sticks, etc., it's well shifted to be fairly even in particle size, it's well packaged 5 pounds per ziplock bag, and it's super dehydrated. I suppose it's so dry since he dehydrates it in Arizona where the RH is around 20% often, but I was really impressed with how super cracker dry it is. Since it's so dry that means you get the most of it per weight possible and it stores indefinitely, never losing its growing potential. I posted about his stuff here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post3865806


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Re: Whats up with rye? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4005192 - 04/02/05 04:10 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

PS - I got my 100 large spawn bags with filter patch for $30 from these guys (the mediums are the same price):

http://www.mycofactory.com/


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Autoclave, Dehydrator, Paul Stamets, Pressure Cooker, Rye Grain, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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MuShQuEsT 2,845 31 02/23/08 01:42 AM
by JeffP170
* problems with rye disturbed 713 7 11/10/04 12:42 PM
by call_me_kido

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