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InvisibleDoctorJ
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have you ever known someone so well...
    #4001915 - 04/01/05 08:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

have you ever known someone so well that you found yourself unable to judge them for their transgressions against you? If so, how did that make you feel? Is that what love is, or is that just being a sucker? At what point can you still trust someone if they have screwed you in the past?


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4001943 - 04/01/05 08:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This has little to do with knowing people, there usually is a correlation, but that's just because people need excuses for love and compassion.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4002043 - 04/01/05 08:58 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Nope, objectivity all the way.

Hold no grudges... just don't give them the trust that you previously gave them... In my book, trust is earned, and isn't given.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4002055 - 04/01/05 09:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I think it has everything to do with knowing them.


like say someone does something really terrible to you... but you know them well enough to realize that the events of their life pretty much predetermined that they were going to do it. Like say some psycho kills your brother, but you know his past and realized it was because he was beaten by his father or something.

If you really REALLY know someone, you know what it is like to BE them, and it becomes harder to judge their actions.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4002061 - 04/01/05 09:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

trust and love are two separate things..
you can love your pet crockodile, but you can't trust it enough to put your arm in his mouth because you are avareof its nature.
Same can be with humans, your mother might be even dangerous to you and society, and you can stay away from her, but still you can love her..

while watching Hannibal, I felt compassion for this guy, but I would never trust him and go near him


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4002064 - 04/01/05 09:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

hmmmm... interesting perspective


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4002079 - 04/01/05 09:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

But it's always like that, people always have some motivations, ilnesses, complexes, you can assume it and cut to the chase.

Words like "asshole" are words of washing your hand from responsibility of understanding. there is always something to know about troublemakers.

there is no difference between total strangers and your own brother exept the amount if information you know about your brother and total lack of it about the stranger.
If you become aware of this trick your mind is playing with you, you can transcend it and start treating people equally


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4002088 - 04/01/05 09:10 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

but wouldn't you still agree that some people are more trustworthy than others?


--------------------
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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4002095 - 04/01/05 09:12 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I think it has everything to do with knowing them.


like say someone does something really terrible to you... but you know them well enough to realize that the events of their life pretty much predetermined that they were going to do it. Like say some psycho kills your brother, but you know his past and realized it was because he was beaten by his father or something.

If you really REALLY know someone, you know what it is like to BE them, and it becomes harder to judge their actions.




I don't allow past events to predetermine my actions... think in the now... that's just a scapegoat for justification of ill treatment.

So is it ok for Michael Jackson to parade around with kids at the Never-Never land ranch and molest them due to knowing of his abuse as a child, and the subsequent inability to have a normal childhood due to his fame? A person must learn from the past, not allow it to consume them.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4002106 - 04/01/05 09:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

thats true. people should take responsibility for their actions. But what if reality really is just a ride and responsibility doesn't matter? Maybe I'm just a bigot for thinking that everyone has this duty to behave morally.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4002130 - 04/01/05 09:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Of course, that's why we have jails, you can rarely trust some people.
But I thought judging and love was the question here


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4002154 - 04/01/05 09:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Well we have sense of responsibility and honor in our society, those are some things people appretiate. It is our culture, and it is constructive and benefits us all.
these are just some things we take for granted, and they are reflections of the natural laws of giving and recieving.
Equality is in the nature of everything. A warm watter will cool down to the point where the temperature of watter and surrounding air is the same.
Just as a warm cup of watter can not resist it, we can't do something and expetct no feedback, no responsibility.
The natural state of things is balance. If there is no balance there is turbulation, and turbulation is pain


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4003325 - 04/02/05 02:06 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I think it has everything to do with knowing them.


like say someone does something really terrible to you... but you know them well enough to realize that the events of their life pretty much predetermined that they were going to do it. Like say some psycho kills your brother, but you know his past and realized it was because he was beaten by his father or something.

If you really REALLY know someone, you know what it is like to BE them, and it becomes harder to judge their actions.




Regardless of whether or not you can understand, or whether you think you can understand, the circumstances that may have led to a transgression such as that..

dude's still fucked up bad. who cares about the WHY? There's a reason for everything, and sure enough that reason rarely matters -- it's the action itself, not the history leading to it, that matters.

Shifting blame does not allow one to shift punishment. We are, after all, able to make our own decisions. It may be regrettable that some are unable to correctly decide that, say, theft or violence are unacceptable.. but that's not a Get Out Of Jail Free Card.

It simply does not matter. We are unable to reverse the mistakes of the past, and so we must deal with the problems of the present -- understanding how those mistakes may have been corrected does nothing to solve today's problems. Understanding the mistakes of the past only allows us to avoid them in the future -- as for the present? We cannot refuse to deal with the situation at present simply because we believe we now know how to correct a past mistake. Can't travel through time. Doesn't work.

If you come across a man on railroad tracks with no legs, and upon looking around find them on the other side of the tracks.. you can tell him that you believe a train rolled over him and cut his legs off, but he's not going to suddenly be fully-limbed just because you think you understand what led to the present situation. You must deal with the present situation -- getting the guy to a hospital -- and that does not change, whether you understand what led to the situation or not.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: have you ever known someone so well... [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4003862 - 04/02/05 06:09 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
dude's still fucked up bad.  who cares about the WHY?  There's a reason for everything, and sure enough that reason rarely matters -- it's the action itself, not the history leading to it, that matters.




So the cause doesn't matter, only the effect? We shouldn't concern ourselves with the cause because the effect is all that matters? That is quite the strange thing to say... every effect is a cause of another effect, and this creates a chain, actually more like a stream of water. Complete understanding is crucial, to not put the action itself into its proper context is very ignorant.

Quote:


Shifting blame does not allow one to shift punishment.  We are, after all, able to make our own decisions.  It may be regrettable that some are unable to correctly decide that, say, theft or violence are unacceptable..  but that's not a Get Out Of Jail Free Card. 




This is exactly the problem. People generally tend to think through the lens of punishment instead of rehabilitation. Its a grievous error in thinking that only makes the problem worse. If someone commits a short-sighted action such as theft or violence, it stems from a lack of understanding of the ramifications and the consequences of taking that action. It is an error in their thinking, and the error needs to be corrected, the person must not be condemned for it.

You cannot hold a person accountable for understanding that they do not have. If a person does not know what it means to fully consider the far-reaching effects of their actions, then they do not have that understanding. They are not capable of thinking a train of thought that has never been properly integrated into their way of life. To say to these people "Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't understand this, so now you are to be punished! :evil:"? I propose that reacting to a person and their action in such a manner, the entire concept of crime and punishment, actually results from our own fear of that person, based on their action. We fear them and in order to restore our sense of security, we make effort to seperate them from us. This mental seperation is harmful and is the result of a lot of the problems we humans have in our interactions with and treatment of others.

This doesn't mean that everyone is exempt from being responsible for their actions, but it does mean that one can't be responsbile for that which they are not capable of being responsible for. :grin: If someone poses a direct threat to our well-being, then ja, steps to prevent them from harming us need to be taken; however, steps also need to be taken to understand this person as well as possible so that one can respond, not react, to their problem so that the problem can be solved, so that gap of understanding can be bridged. This would come about quite naturally if we as a race were centered in love and not fear. :wink:

Quote:


We are unable to reverse the mistakes of the past, and so we must deal with the problems of the present -- understanding how those mistakes may have been corrected does nothing to solve today's problems.




I feel you are looking at it from the wrong perspective, we are unable to reverse the "mistakes" of the past, but understanding these "mistakes" does everything to enable us to be able to best respond to today's problems. The more understanding one has of how and why something is the way that it is, the more capable one is to act to solve those problems. I do not see any way that understanding in this manner does nothing to enable one to act right here and now.

Quote:


We cannot refuse to deal with the situation at present simply because we believe we now know how to correct a past mistake.  Can't travel through time.  Doesn't work.




The point isn't to try to figure out how to correct a past mistake, the point is to use the understanding of the past to better change the present. Understanding the mechanics of how these problems came to be in the past shows us what we can do to fix these problems in the present, not the past (which would be impossible, of course). :smirk:

Quote:


You must deal with the present situation -- getting the guy to a hospital -- and that does not change, whether you understand what led to the situation or not.




Ahh, but a lot of problems, especially mental ones, do not have such a readily apparent solution. In order to understand why someone acted in the manner that they did, one must fully understand what led to the action as much as possible in order to more accurately solve the problem. Observing the man's legs being seperated from his body does indeed suggest that he must be taken to the hospital, regardless of what caused his legs to seperate, but when a man kills another man, the solution is not to simply lock that man up, regardless of what caused this man to kill another. The solution is to identity the mental programming responsible for this action to ever be enacted and then treat it. Respond, don't react. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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