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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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WMDs: "Dead Wrong"
    #3997114 - 03/31/05 09:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4904776,00.html

Quote:

Panel: Agencies 'Dead Wrong' on Iraq WMDs


Thursday March 31, 2005 6:31 PM

By KATHERINE SHRADER

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - America's spy agencies were ``dead wrong'' in most prewar assessments about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and know disturbingly little about current nuclear threats, a presidential commission said Thursday.

``Our collection agencies are often unable to gather intelligence on the very things we care the most about,'' the panel concluded in an unsparing report.

It recommended dozens of organizational changes, and said President Bush can implement most of them without congressional action. It also urged the president to back up John Negroponte, his choice to be the new director of national intelligence, in any bureaucratic turf battles ahead.

``The central conclusion is one which I share. America's intelligence community needs fundamental change,'' Bush said at the White House after receiving the critique from a commission he was at first reluctant to appoint.

He said he had directed Fran Townsend, his White House-based homeland security adviser, to ``review the commission's finding and to assure that concrete actions are taken.''

Bush read a prepared statement, flanked by retired Judge Laurence Silberman, a Republican, and former Democratic Sen. Charles Robb of Virginia, co-chairmen of the panel.

The president then strode from the room, leaving the two men behind to field questions on the report that criticized past performance - but didn't stop there.

``Across the board, the intelligence community knows disturbingly little about the nuclear programs of many of the world's most dangerous actors,'' the report said.

The commission also called for sweeping changes at the FBI to combine the bureau's counterterrorism and counterintelligence resources into a new office.

Robb and Silberman agreed they had found no evidence that senior administration officials had sought to change the prewar intelligence in Iraq, possibly for political gain.

Robb said investigators examined every allegation ``to see if there was any occasion where a member of the administration or anyone else had asked an analyst or anyone else associated with the intelligence community to change a position they were taking or whether they felt there was any undue influence. And we found absolutely no instance.''

In the months preceding the Iraq war, Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney repeatedly invoked Saddam Hussein's presumed possession of weapons of mass destruction as a reason to invade.

The report was the latest tabulation of intelligence shortfalls documented in a series of investigations since the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 against the United States. Numerous investigations have concluded that spy agencies had serious intelligence failures before the attacks. Thursday's report concluded that the problem still has not been fixed, three years after al-Qaida struck America.

``The flaws we found in the intelligence community's Iraq performance are still all too common,'' it said.

At the news conference, Robb was particularly blunt when it came to turf wars within the intelligence bureaucracy. Negroponte ``needs the full and unequivocal backing'' of the president, he said, adding that there are ``very distinguished and proud agencies whose culture will work against change.''

The report said ``The daily intelligence briefings given to you (Bush) before the Iraq war were flawed. Through attention-grabbing headlines and repetition of questionable data, these briefings overstated the case that Iraq was rebuilding its WMD programs.''

In an implicit swipe at the Bush administration, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said the report did not review how federal policy-makers used the intelligence they were given.

``I believe it is essential that we hold both the intelligence agencies and senior policy-makers accountable for their actions,'' Reid said.

The unclassified version does not go into significant detail on the intelligence community's assessment of countries such as Iran, North Korea, China and Russia because commissioners did not want to tip the U.S. hand about what is known. Those details are included in the classified version.

Sen. Pat Roberts, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said he was pleased by the report and indicated that it concludes all inquiries into intelligence used to make the case for going to war with Iraq.

``I don't think there should be any doubt that we have now heard it all regarding prewar intelligence,'' the Kansas Republican said. ``I think that it would be a monumental waste of time to re-plow this ground any further.''

Rep. Ike Skelton of Missouri, the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, said the failures were widespread.

``I don't think you can blame any one person, although the buck does stop at the top of every one of these agencies,'' Skelton said. ``But quite honestly, the fault is spread out across all the agencies.''

Bush appointed the commission a year ago, signing on to the idea of an independent investigation only belatedly. The White House had said it wanted to give the weapons search in Iraq more time.

But pressure grew from Republicans and Democrats alike after the former chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay, resigned saying the prewar estimates of weapons in Iraq, which Bush used to justify war there, ``were almost all wrong.'' Even then, the White House insisted the commission's mandate be broadened to other nations, prompting criticism that the panel might be too overloaded to thoroughly examine its original subject, Iraq.

``We conclude that the intelligence community was dead wrong in almost all of its prewar judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction,'' the report said. ``This was a major intelligence failure.''

The main cause was the intelligence community's ``inability to collect good information about Iraq's WMD programs, it said, and serious errors in analyzing what information it could gather and a failure to make clear just how much of its analysis was based on assumptions rather than good evidence.

``On a matter of this importance, we simply cannot afford failures of this magnitude,'' the report said.

On al-Qaida, the commission found that the intelligence community was surprised by the terrorist network's advances in biological weapons, particularly a virulent strain of a disease that the report keeps secret, identifying it only as ``Agent X.''




well, there you go...


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Vvellum]
    #3997181 - 03/31/05 09:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

LOL I love the last line. "On al-Qaida, the commission found that the intelligence community was surprised by the terrorist network's advances in biological weapons, particularly a virulent strain of a disease that the report keeps secret, identifying it only as ``Agent X."

These fucknuts have officially showed that they have learned nothing about the benefits of transparency so this entire report is just an exercise in creating an intangible scape-goat. The real "intelligence community" is thousands of scientists who refuse to take the piss tests and lie detectors to get security clearance and who can prevent a tragedy from happening if they had information about this biological agent.


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InvisibleGijith
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Posts: 2,400
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Vvellum]
    #3997313 - 03/31/05 09:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I saw a great little thing on foxnews.com this morning

Headline: 'WMD Panel Blasts Intel'

Then they actually had the balls to run this as the sub headline: 'Iran May Have Nukes by 2007'

Now I didn't bother to read further, so maybe it's not as cute as I thought. Maybe it's totally unrelated. But did they even flinch when they ran that?


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Edited by Gijith (03/31/05 10:01 PM)


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Gijith]
    #3997388 - 03/31/05 10:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I hope that we actually find Iraq's WMDs in Syria.

I think it would be comical for them to admit they were wrong again.

We don't know what the fuck is going on. We aren't the only ones either, all the other elite intelligence agencies in the world got Iraq wrong as well.

I wonder how much money we all pay for such shitty intelligence. Might as well just fire everyone and pay me to read the fucking paper. Jesus Christ.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3997414 - 03/31/05 10:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:shrug: The majority of the population eats it up.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3998841 - 04/01/05 06:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

We don't know what the fuck is going on. We aren't the only ones either, all the other elite intelligence agencies in the world got Iraq wrong as well.




thats a nice excuse
and it's also completely false
there were plenty of doubts about Iraqi WMD within the US intelligence community as well as the UN and other foreign intelligence agencies. we didn't go to war on inaccurate intel, we went to war on cherrypicked intel.

Quote:

I hope that we actually find Iraq's WMDs in Syria.

I think it would be comical for them to admit they were wrong again.




lol. what's comical is the irony of that statement!


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Vvellum]
    #3998900 - 04/01/05 07:55 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This is the last time we go to war based on something some guy named "curveball" says.





--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Learyfan]
    #3999367 - 04/01/05 11:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

WMD's or no WMD's....... Saddam was a sorry mother-fucker that needed to go.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3999470 - 04/01/05 11:38 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
WMD's or no WMD's....... Saddam was a sorry mother-fucker that needed to go.




Yes, it's much better now that we've killed (conservatively) almost 20,000 Iraqi civilians, not to mention having lost over 1500 of our own troops in the process.

Of course there have been other detailed reports showing that Iraqi civilian deaths may be as high as 40,000 or even more, possibly well past the 100,000 mark. Considering even the lowest amount of 20,000 civilian deaths, that's almost 7 times the amount of people who died in the world trade center attack. Which of course is completely irrelevant to Iraq, though 70% of Americans still believed Iraq was involved in 9/11 according to a poll taken two years after the WTC attack.

The death, the fear, the ignorance and how quickly the bush administration capitalized on all of it... it's just sickening.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3999479 - 04/01/05 11:39 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

where in the US constitution does it say the role of the government is to invade non-threatening countries and nation-build? Why is that the responsibility of the US? Why is the US the world police now?


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Vvellum]
    #4006865 - 04/03/05 12:19 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

*garbage taken out by Rono*


Edited by Rono (04/03/05 11:26 AM)


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Great_Satan]
    #4012722 - 04/04/05 03:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

> >Where Bush Got His Marching Orders.............






> >"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity
> to
> >develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
> >That
> >is our bottom line."
> > - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
> >
> >"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
> >We
> >want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass
> >destruction program."
> >- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
> >
> >"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great
> >deal here . For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use
> >nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the
> >greatest security threat we face."
> > - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
> >
> >"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times
> >since 1983."
> >- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
> >
> >"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the
> >U.S.
> >Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if
> >appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond
> >effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of
> >mass destruction programs."
> >- Letter to Pre sident Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom
> >Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry ( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998
> >
> >"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass
> >destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and
> >he
> >has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
> >- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
> >
> >"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass
> >destruction and palaces for his cronies."
> > - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
> >
> >"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons
> >programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
> >continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition,
> >Saddam
> >continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover
> >of
> >a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will
> >threaten
> >the United States and our allies."
> >- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and
> >others,
> >December 5, 2001
> >
> >"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and
> >threat
> >to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of
> >the
> >United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means
> >of
> >delivering them."
> >- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
> >
> >"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and c hemical
> >weapons throughout his country."
> > - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
> >
> >
> >"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to
> >deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is
> >in power."
> >- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
> >
> >"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and
> >developing
> >weapons of mass destruction."
> >- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
> >
> >"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are
> >confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
> >biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to
> >build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence
> >reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
> > - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
> >
> >"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the
> >authority
> >to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe
> >that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a
> >real
> >and grave threat to our security."
> >- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
> >
> >"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working
> >aggressively
> >to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within
> >the
> >next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated
> >the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass
> >destruction."
> > - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
> >
> >"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years,
> >every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and
> >destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity.
> >This
> >he has refused to do."
> > - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
> >
> >"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show
> >that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological wea
> >pon stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He
> >has
> >also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda
> >members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked Saddam Hussein will
> >continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical
> >warfare,
> >and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapo ns."
> >- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
> >
> >"W e are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that
> >Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing
> >capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
> >- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
> >
> >"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal,
> >murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
> >particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
> >miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
> >continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass
> >destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass
> >destruction is real."
> >- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
> >
> >
> >SO NOW THESE SAME DEMOCRATS
SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED,
THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS
OF MASS DESTRUCTION,
AND THAT HE TOOK US TO WAR UNECESSARILY !


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4012745 - 04/04/05 03:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq...




Colin Powell, 24 Feb 2001

Quote:

But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.




Condoleezza Rice, 29 July 2001

Why did Bush listen to a whole host of Democrats as opposed to his Republican allies?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: GazzBut]
    #4012778 - 04/04/05 03:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

why did bush listen to the democrats? maybe they had a good point.


1998 : (BILL CLINTON ON IRAQ) Bill Clinton was firm, resolute and uncompromising in explaining to the nation why military action against Saddam Hussein had proved necessary:"This situation presents a clear and present danger to the stability of the Persian Gulf and the safety of people everywhere," he said. "This is a question of action. Iraq has abused its final chance." Indeed, he warned, "Overwhelming force remains an option." Delaying such action "for even a matter of days would [give] Saddam more time to disperse his forces and protect his weapons." Even with nations such as Russia, China and France disagreeing with the use of armed force, he said, "we remain ready to act." Bill Clinton issued those threats and later acted on them (albeit briefly and tentatively). Which explains why congressional Democrats weren't singing the chorus of angry anti-war slogans and charges of "Pearl Harbor in reverse" that now emanate from the port side of Capitol Hill. - "DEM DOUBLE-TAKE (or...Hypocrites On Parade), " by ERIC FETTMANN, New York Post October 10, 2002
DECEMBER 1998 : (KERRY, IRAQ) "Saddam Hussein's objective is to maintain a program of weapons of mass destruction," said Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) back then. (December 1998) "It is important to hold him accountable by force. No one will question that it is Mr. Hussein who has precipitated this confrontation and no one else."
Nearly four years later, though, Kerry has started asking questions. He warns ominously that the president has failed to answer "the question to Mom and Pop in America as to why their young child may come home in a body bag." In 1998, Kerry insisted "I would go beyond mere containment." But now that George W. Bush is commander-in-chief, Kerry (who'd dearly love to move into the White House himself) wants to know why America isn't pursuing a policy of containment. - "DEM DOUBLE-TAKE (or...Hypocrites On Parade), " by ERIC FETTMANN, New York Post October 10, 2002

OCTOBER 9, 1998 : (LIEBERMAN, FEINSTEIN, MILULSKI, DASCHLE, KERRY, ETC ON IRAQ) "We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

1998 : (ALBRIGHT) "Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

OCTOBER 2002 : (WV DEMOCRAT SENATOR "SHEETS" BYRD) "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

1998 : (CLINTON) "The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

OCTOBER 10, 2002 : (HILLARY CLINTON) "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

APRIL 2003 : (CLINTON ADMIN SECDEF COHEN) "I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

1998 : (TOM DASCHLE) "Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

SEPTEMBER 2002 : (SENATOR DICKIE GEBHARDT) "I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

2002 : (AL GORE) "Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

DECEMBER 2002 : (SNATOR BOB GRAHAM) "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

SEPTEMBER 27, 2002 : (TED KENNEDY) "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

DECEMBER 16, 1998 : (PELOSI) "As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

1998 : (UN ARMS INSPECTOR SCOTT RITTER) "Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

DECEMBER 2002 : (SENATOR BOB GRAHAM) Graham's exact quote: "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4012883 - 04/04/05 03:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

yes, they were all wrong. not just the democrats, not just the republicans. why cant you admit the error?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Vvellum]
    #4012929 - 04/04/05 04:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Presiden't of any form are designed to secure the national interest's of our country... despite whatever truth their is or isn't, beyond all the hearsay, and rhetoric, we're all on the same page, doing the same thing...

Sure, their may be financial incentive to the president via affiliated ties to corporations, but the federal government also sanctions the actions... corrupt or not, that's how the game is played.

We have a unified goal in the country... regardless of how it looks. The name-calling, the associated conjecture, is just used to take heat off of the true nature of the political framework.

Whether you support it or not... if you're living in this country you are no better then anyone else, despite your beliefs on the situation.

If you live in the USA, you reap the benefits; you enjoy cheap gas, and products as a result of our countries actions.

Bitch all you want, you're no better then the one's that concocted the plan... especially if you are aware of what is happening. It's funny, how often we bitch about all the USA's actions (myself included)... yet we don't bitch about the benefits of the actions.

If you're from another country and bitching about our actions... I apologize, we got their first, your country would get away with it if it could. (unless your country is the one that we're stomping on)

Whether we are justified in it or not... well, of course we aren't, but we can get away with a lot, and as a result, make an international consortium of countries seem like a joke (the UN). What's done is done, no changing it now, it was wrong, everyone admits to that... it's still wrong... most everyone can agree to that... Will it be justified in the end? All depends on whether or not the countries that we are puppetering are better off as a whole then they were prior to the action... It'll be known soon enough if it is.

We made Saddam, we broke Saddam... I suppose we're fair in our creation of enemies. We made Osama Bin Laden as well, we'll break him when he no longer serves his purpose.

Just my $0.02

Flame away.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: Vvellum]
    #4014039 - 04/04/05 09:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
yes, they were all wrong. not just the democrats, not just the republicans. why cant you admit the error?




i admit that i was wrong about spending billions of dollars of our tax money to liberate fucked up countries. Bush may have been right, and more than half the people of this country who re-elected him agree.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4015349 - 04/05/05 01:41 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

...right about what? he was "dead wrong" about WMD - primary reason for his invasion of Iraq.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4016028 - 04/05/05 07:52 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So why did he ignore Rice and Powell whose information was several years older than all the quotes you have given?

Why? Why? Why?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: WMDs: "Dead Wrong" [Re: GazzBut]
    #4016997 - 04/05/05 01:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I find it absolutely hypocritical how so many Republican's and such have changed their tune in a magical display of partisanship.

They brayed about WMD's being in Iraq and when they weren't found they switched to, "Well........Saddam was such a tyrant! How could anybody defend him!? The world is better off without him!". Has anybody else noticed this distraction and justification technique?

Why don't they just admit that:

1. The intelligence agencies were either dead wrong or heavily misinformed about WMD.

2. The U.S. gave Saddam money and support when he was running around doing all of this horrible shit. When he gassed his own people...who was giving him aid?? It was us, the U.S.

3. There were undeniable geopolitical reasons for invading Iraq that the politicians will not admit to. Such as getting troops on the borders of Syria and Iran (blatant supporters of Islamic extremism), being able to reduce our reliance on troublesome Saudi Arabia, salvaging the Iraqi oil fields (the longer they were not maintained...the less oil can be recovered from them), etc..etc.


I am a strange bird. I am very pro-American, but at the same time I am very honest and a non-interventionist. I am not afraid to admit when my own government does fucked up stuff. I think that my government should avoid becoming entangled in foreign problems because it does nothing but breed resentment and enemies. But at the same time, I am a firm believer in being able to use force and I think it is acceptable to engage in aggression if it is in our best interest.

If Bush had just come out and admitted the geopolitical reasons for taking out Saddam (to reshape the Middle East with freedom and prosperity, etc....) I might have supported him. But all I have seen with this whole Iraq adventure is backpedaling, excuse making, and mistakes.


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