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OfflineJon
Registered: 06/28/03
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The happy pill
    #3985968 - 03/29/05 05:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

It has been about 3 years since ive been in and out of psychiatrist offices dissatisfied with their conclusive methods. I didnt like the fact they gave me medications on the spot, I felt that all the mental health profession were a bunch weirded out bastards that put their weight of sympathy on these pills to keep a check comin. I walk into all these offices, loaded with free samples of all this ADD and anxiety crap. Like I paid a fuckin 200 dollar admission charge to get a bunch of pills. Ive been goin through the same routine with all these psychiatrists, and they keep givin me pills, they almost seem like they ignore me and play tic tac toe on their retarded writing boards. I have reasonabl suspicion over the sudden explosion of psychotropic substances introduced to the mental health world. People keep telling me that less than 10% of the nation are on these depression pills. I keep thinking that these pills are just images of an ideal american individual. Kind of like someone is behind all these drugs some how tilting the mentality of a nation towards a more seemingly happy resolution. I fear the pills, i dont like the fact that psychiatrists have to use pills to disect my mind in order to overspeculate a bullshit diagnosis where im just high on some shit. I have a number of issues, and my dissatisfaction with the nation is one of them. Then I have a trust issue, I cant really trust anyone to rely on walking me through an obstical. I have made a recent visit to a new psychiatrist, again concluding the same way "TAKE THE MEDICINE" Is this stuff really medicine? Is my skepticism keeping me from moving on with my life? Or are these pills just another narrow gate towards joining the desecration of individualism itself? Please tell me if im being retarded, I dont mind constructive criticism, but I have to know if this pill is really going to help me.


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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #3986031 - 03/29/05 05:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

well if u dont want your anti depresents u can ship them to me


--------------------


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OfflineViveka
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #3986087 - 03/29/05 06:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What's the pill supposed to do? Suppress the part of you that's no good? Or correct some sort of imbalance that's making you "no good" in some way. The West put the horse before Descartes a long ass time ago and these armchair "doctors" have been sitting there with their thumbs up their collective ass ever since.

If you walk into a "doctor's" office and the first thing he does is set you up with pills, before he takes the time required to become familiar with who you are, what your life is like, what sorts of stresses are in your life, how you react to them, then he is obviously full of shit. I think it gross malpractice that a person can be prescribed pills to modify brain chemistry, when no attempt has been made to get the individual to modulate their own lives and thought processes through inner work. This type of "medicine" is founded on the idea that the mind and body are two separate entities, a line of thinking spawned by Descarte and his ilk a long time ago that has become the basis of Western Medicine.

There is no external substitue for inner work.


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OfflineJon
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Viveka]
    #3986209 - 03/29/05 07:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I feel exactly the same way. I dont know how psychiatrists persist an intention of helping while they let the pills speak for themselves. It is highly suspicious that a majority of people seeking mental help are brought up to these drugs that are said to guaruntee (or somthin close) an improvement of the state of mind. I have always wanted to know what those lazy bastards write in their little boards. I wanna see how my psychiatrist reacts to my testimonies implying i did take the medication where as I really didnt. I seek to clarify the intentions of these soo called "doctors"


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #3986760 - 03/29/05 09:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #3987643 - 03/29/05 11:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I've been thinking about trying to get a prescription for adderall and/or modafinil.


They sound like fun.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3987677 - 03/29/05 11:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Mmmm....modafinil.

The adderall will be far easier to procure.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3987696 - 03/29/05 11:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm having trouble staying awake in class.


What do they prescribe for that?


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3987779 - 03/29/05 11:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Sleep. :laugh:


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3987886 - 03/30/05 12:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Seriously unless you have some liberally thinking doctor, they probably won't prescribe you anything for just saying you are fatigued.

I was actually diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome after a bout with Epstein-Barr virus. They gave me Zoloft at the time as some peoples fatigue seems to respond to this, but it didn't work for me. Then later they tried Wellbutrin for the same reason.

Narcolepsy is easy to diagnose and without it (or a open minded doctor) you probably won't be able to get Modafinil. I even had my buddy look in Mexico last time he was there and he couldn't get it.

Adderall will be you best bet. Good or bad, most people can usually fit the bill for ADD.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3989051 - 03/30/05 07:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I don't understand how an attention deficit due to induction of drowsyness is any different than any other form of attention deficit.


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Offlinestarptv23
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3994278 - 03/31/05 10:50 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i do feel that doctors love to cure things with a pill...But i know i have been having anxiety that leads into panic attacks...i do have drugs to help me out when i feel crazy.. and i have tried everything (meditating-yoga-going to a reki to get balanced- learning ti-chi..) before going the drug route ...it was my last straw I needed help to funchtion for my family and most of all for myself.....I do NOT PLAN ON TAKING THEM FOR MORE THEN I NEED TO..it just gives me breathing space for the moment so i can get through the day with out feeling like im going to go nuts ....I hope you find the path that works for you..everyone is so different...i do believe in all types of meds from--herbal- to energy balancing --to science medication..it is all here for a reason...good luck :heart: :tongue2:


--------------------
"Six words: drop out, turn on, then come back and tune it in -and then drop out again, and turn on, and tune it back in-it's a rhythm- most of us think God made this universe in nature-subject object-predicate sentences-turn on, tune in, drop out- period, end of paragraph. Turn the page- it's all a rhythm- it's all a beat. You turn on, you find it inside, and then you have to come back (since you can't stay high all the time) and you have to build a better model. But don't get caught - don't get hooked - don't get attracted by the thing you're building, cause... you gotta drop out again. It's a cycle. Turn on, tune in, drop out. Keep it going, keep it going- the nervous system works that way. gotta keep it flowing- keep it flowing.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3995263 - 03/31/05 02:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I don't understand how an attention deficit due to induction of drowsyness is any different than any other form of attention deficit.




I think you'd have to work at Pfeizer or one of the leading Pharmaceutical companies to understand that.  :grin:

~bullshit to sell prescriptions IMO... such that we make up disorders.

I read a few weeks back in my local newspaper of a 4 and 1/2 year old being diagnosed with Manic depressive disorder :whatever:

It's a good way to sell pills and keep the kids quiet in class... If they're acting like normal rambunxious shits (acting like kids) then they must have ADD/ADHD/DEPRESSION/Psychological Complexes/etc... I see it as an attempt to bring work to a fallacious science.

Edit:

In our societies attempts to enforce conformity... we have numerous organizations that seek to qualify, and quantify human behavior, and further to assert what is "normal".

The thing is... perhaps being in such a state is normal, hence why the individual reacts to stimuli the way they do... We shouldn't IMO attempt to enforce such a degree of conformity to psychological standards... 1984 comes to mind with the notion of "thought control" on the extremist end.

Think about how much we suggest we know about human behavior versus what we actually know... People are dieng all the time as a result of being misdiagnosed... Think of the terminology often asociated with such disorders, e.g. a chemical imbalance... Psychologists aren't chemists, nor do they have the actual qualifications to diagnose such disorders in way of the credentials associated with their degree, that would require advanced degrees in neurlogy, which they lack afaik.

Even then, the science is unproven beyond FDA contracts, that are proven through bunk experiments and manipulation of results.

http://www.2facts.com/ICOF/temp/53764tempi1000060.asp
Username: mpclib
Password: MPCLIB
(might not require it)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/31/05 02:57 PM)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #3999405 - 04/01/05 11:23 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yeah, I havent trusted psychiatrists since I first went to one when I was 16.

I tried to tell him what was going on in my life and he was just like 'yeah, yeah' and after about five minutes of not even paying attention to what I was saying he was like: "Here: take these. Shut up."

then I started taking a drug called Paxil, and I just didn't like the way it turned me into something I wasn't meant to be, so I stopped taking it and went back to pot.

but yeah, that whole experience led me to believe that psychiatrists are just licensed dope dealers, pushin pills for the man, sucking Satan's cock like a bunch of whack bitches.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The happy pill [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3999929 - 04/01/05 01:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The fact is, there simply aren't enough doctors to take care of everyone who is mentally unwell. Psychotherapy is usually a long and ardous process. It takes considerable time and resources to allow a person to become "well again".

Thats why medication is so frequently prescribed. It's simple, and cost effective. Additionally, in contrast to some of the testimonies on this site these drugs do work. No, I have never taken or been prescribed any of these drugs, however I've met many people whose lives have been changed by an antidepressant prescription.

Not everyone has a positive experience with these drugs, when considered in a larger context however, they are an achievement of modern medicine.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinestarptv23
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #3999956 - 04/01/05 01:33 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I take them and they work for me...I am the only one that can help myself and the drug lets me calm down to think things through...everyone is diffrent...


--------------------
"Six words: drop out, turn on, then come back and tune it in -and then drop out again, and turn on, and tune it back in-it's a rhythm- most of us think God made this universe in nature-subject object-predicate sentences-turn on, tune in, drop out- period, end of paragraph. Turn the page- it's all a rhythm- it's all a beat. You turn on, you find it inside, and then you have to come back (since you can't stay high all the time) and you have to build a better model. But don't get caught - don't get hooked - don't get attracted by the thing you're building, cause... you gotta drop out again. It's a cycle. Turn on, tune in, drop out. Keep it going, keep it going- the nervous system works that way. gotta keep it flowing- keep it flowing.


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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #4000045 - 04/01/05 01:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Hey Jon,

You are not wrong in your assertions. Most psychotherapists are glorified drug dealers. In modern times, people increasingly diagnose themselves based on television comercials put out by phamaceutical companies. Patients now increasingly tell the doctor what illness/disease/disorder they have, and the doctor pops out a script for whatever pill the commercial prescribed. The whole system is producing lazy ass doctors along with a dangerously misinformed public.

In the past when people had headaches, depression, or insomnia, they followed their instinct and got more rest, drank less booze, or ate better. Now, people don't have any need for instinct--afterall, they have Pf*zer now. Long story only shortly longer, I totally agree with you Jon. Keep keeping on brother.


--------------------
I grow legal edibles only. Fresh Shiitake are the bee's knees - like, straight from the fridge.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The happy pill [Re: 4bin]
    #4000140 - 04/01/05 02:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

4bin said:

You are not wrong in your assertions. Most psychotherapists are glorified drug dealers.




Or respected doctors. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Quote:

4bin said:In modern times, people increasingly diagnose themselves based on television comercials put out by phamaceutical companies. Patients now increasingly tell the doctor what illness/disease/disorder they have, and the doctor pops out a script for whatever pill the commercial prescribed.




I'm sure you're aware a patient cannot diagnose him/herslef. The diagnosis of mental disorders is made upon subjective criteria. If you met the criteria, you qualify. This is less than optimal, but in the absence of laboratory, or objective tests it's the best one can do.

Quote:

4bin said:The whole system is producing lazy ass doctors along with a dangerously misinformed public.




In general, "lazy" people don't usually fair well in medical school. It's a difficult thing to get through.

The fact is, if med school were easy there would be enough doctors to sit and perform psychotherapy upon patients. Look at how many people are depressed within this single thread. The resources simply aren't there to help everyone. In addition, psychotherapy by itself (or "Talking it out") hasn't been shown to alleviate depression to a greater extent than through the use of drugs (e.g. they produce almost identical results). Thus, since the chances of withdrawal of depression are equal between pharmacotherapy and psychotherapy, the sensible choice is the use of a drug, which is far cheaper.

Quote:

4bin said:In the past when people had headaches, depression, or insomnia, they followed their instinct and got more rest, drank less booze, or ate better. Now, people don't have any need for instinct--afterall, they have Pf*zer now. Long story only shortly longer, I totally agree with you Jon. Keep keeping on brother.




In the past people asked god to heal them and had a life expectancy far lower than we have now. It doesn't matter how much "instinct" you have, sleeping will not resolve a chemical imbalance in the brain.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4001031 - 04/01/05 04:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Your average witch doctor from Borneo has a comparable track record to that of a pill pushing psychotherapist.


They have not chosen the most effective path, merely the most profitable. It's not the only industry where this is true. Ask any salesman and they will tell you that their product will change your life.


Ask a sysco representative whether or not they have a computing system that will revolutionize your business, and they will say yes.


Usually this does not happen.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4001610 - 04/01/05 06:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Your average witch doctor from Borneo has a comparable track record to that of a pill pushing psychotherapist.




Actually no. I wouldn't necessarily compare medical school to becoming a witch doctor (you do realize that practicing psychiatry requires an MD degree, the same degree conferred to all medical doctors?). After 4 years of medical school there are other residencies which are equally and/or more profitable then becmong a psychiatrist.


Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:They have not chosen the most effective path, merely the most profitable. It's not the only industry where this is true.




Next time you visit the Dr. take a look at the bill. A psychiatrist stands to make MORE money, by repeatedly seeing you than he/she would by writing a prescription. This would especially be true of private practice where a pychiatrist is paid per session.

Contrary to what you may believe these doctors are not getting any "kick backs" from the pharm industry and have little incentive to prescribe specific drugs (for many a generic version is already available). Tell your doctor you don't like a particular drug and he'll quickly switch you because he doesn't profit either way.

In essence because psychotherapy and drugs have the same rates of alleviating depression, the doctor is saving you money.

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:Ask a sysco representative whether or not they have a computing system that will revolutionize your business, and they will say yes.


Usually this does not happen.




Although it's a matter of opinion this HAS happened. Prior to 1940's if you were depressed, guess what? Your diagnosis was; "Suck it up, too bad, quit crying". The antidepressants were developed which helped people deal with depression immensely, yet had severe side effects. In the early 90's SSRI's were developed which reduced the side effects. Now the first selective serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor has just been released (it's main effects won't be apparent for several years).

As with most aspects of mood disorders, you can claim the glass is "half empty" but in my opinion these drugs are revolutionizg the way we deal with depression. While they may not have helped you specifically, they are helping enormous amounts of people. To deny the benefits of these drugs, would be like saying antibiotics don't work the evidence simply doesn't support it.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4001707 - 04/01/05 07:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

"A psychiatrist stands to make MORE money, by repeatedly seeing you than he/she would by writing a prescription."


There are only so many hours in a day. They would much rather you just hand them the money and move along.


"the evidence simply doesn't support it. "


Whose evidence? My experience is that more people are harmed by these drugs than helped.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4007575 - 04/03/05 04:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sure you're aware a patient cannot diagnose him/herslef.



"diagnose" according to whose definition? The definition required to prescribe something, yes? To diagnose essentially means to analyze and determine the nature of a form of suffering. The suffering individual, who is familiar and intimate with all the details, influence and occurances in his life is clearly the best equipped to do this, especially since psychological diagnoses can only be determined subjectively, as you pointed out.

Quote:

This is less than optimal, but in the absence of laboratory, or objective tests it's the best one can do.



Yes, and you must also admit that it's bullshit that a generic panel of questions is usually what is used to determine if a patient should be prescribed something. Questions like:

Have you been sad a lot lately?

How does your future look?

Do you have difficulty making decisions?

Are you tired?

Do you feel guilty or like a failure?

The questions all beg simple answers and those answers weigh the decision to go on the drugs or not. But these questions do nothing to determine the nature of suffering and they oversimply the complexity of people's lives. It is such an obtuse way of treating someone. It is treating a person as if they are somehow seperate from their emotions and lives and, more importantly, the way they react to them and allow themselves to be affected.

Quote:

In general, "lazy" people don't usually fair well in medical school. It's a difficult thing to get through.




That means nothing. A person could go to school and study music theory intensely, which is at least as difficult, if not far more than studying medicine, but that doesn't mean that they will be capable of composing good music or that they will ever even attempt to once they graduate.

Quote:

In addition, psychotherapy by itself (or "Talking it out") hasn't been shown to alleviate depression to a greater extent than through the use of drugs (e.g. they produce almost identical results). Thus, since the chances of withdrawal of depression are equal between pharmacotherapy and psychotherapy, the sensible choice is the use of a drug, which is far cheaper.





The logic you are presenting here is that a person's only two choices are traditional psychotherapy or drugs. Once again, this attitude oversimplifies the complexity and potential of human life. The idea that there is a "sensible choice" implies that finding wellness and wholeness depends on such a choice. This is not logical. Finding wellness is a process that presents individuals with many choices on a daily basis, and many of the choices people make that cause them to suffer are very subtle. Every person must work on their outer and inner being and to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.


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Re: The happy pill [Re: Viveka]
    #4007827 - 04/03/05 07:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Most kids I see sell thier pills to other kids rather then take them themselves.


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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4007898 - 04/03/05 08:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Also, you're totally underestimating how hard it is to become a witch doctor. Most of them study at least as long as any medical doctor.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4008236 - 04/03/05 12:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
"A psychiatrist stands to make MORE money, by repeatedly seeing you than he/she would by writing a prescription."

There are only so many hours in a day. They would much rather you just hand them the money and move along.




I was referring to the fact that most psychiatrists are paid on a per visit basis. For instance, a psychiatrist may charge $100/per hour. If he sees you for an hour, writes a prescription for an antidepressant, and it works, he's made a $100. However, if he doesn't use a drug and sees you three times per week, he stands to make much more.

quote]Baby_Hitler said:"the evidence simply doesn't support it. "

Whose evidence? My experience is that more people are harmed by these drugs than helped.




The evidence presented in clinical trials. In order to get FDA approval, a drug must be shown to be better than placebo.

For example heres a trial of Venalafaxine:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...st_uids=1924660

This was a rather small study of only about 90 patients. If you perform a literature search the studies get much larger and contain literally thousands of patients. All showing an improvement greater then those receiving a "placebo".

In addition (and related to your initial post) look at the frequency with which these drugs are taken. I don't feel many people would continue to voluntarily take a drug they disliked.

Quote:

EvilEye? said:
"diagnose" according to whose definition?



The DSM-IV TR criteria. Which is a group of symptoms agreed upon which indicate various types of mood disorders. Yes, it is subjective, however these "diagnoses" were decided upon by trained professionals. Those with experience in the field, and far more familiar with mood disorders than the average person.

Quote:

EvilEye? said: The suffering individual, who is familiar and intimate with all the details, influence and occurances in his life is clearly the best equipped to do this




I would have to disagree. In my opinion someone whom has extensively studied mood disorders would be better equipped. A psychiatrist sees many patients, and is familiar with the symptoms (especially ones that aren't entirely overt). Psychiatrists have devoted a significant amount of time in medical school studying the causes, treatments and symptoms of psychological disorders. They are better able to recognize, diagnose and treat disroders then the lay person.

Quote:

EvilEye? said: Yes, and you must also admit that it's bullshit that a generic panel of questions is usually what is used to determine if a patient should be prescribed something.




My original argument still stands: It's the best we can do.

The questions are open ended, and allow a patient to expand. In response to a simple questions such as: "How do you feel" one can give a lengthy answer and go in many directions. They are designed to do this, and usually do not yield "simple answers".

Again, this illustrates the need of a highly trained psychiatrist, one whom is able to "interpret" these answers and determine the "nature of suffering" (e.g. unipolar depression, bipolar depression, schizophrenia, etc.). If you've ever read the DSM-IV it's much more than simply writing in a notebook: "Patient feels sad, writing a prescription"

Quote:

EvilEye? said:That means nothing. A person could go to school and study music theory intensely, which is at least as difficult, if not far more than studying medicine, but that doesn't mean that they will be capable of composing good music or that they will ever even attempt to once they graduate.




But what are the chances of this happening? How many great "music scholars" attend julliard and end up being horrible at what they do?

My only point is that "the vast majority" of doctors are not lazy. Ask any physician during their residency how "lazy" you have to be to work an 80 week. Most physicians are competent, ethical, and do what they do out of a desire to help people.

Quote:

EvilEye? said:The logic you are presenting here is that a person's only two choices are traditional psychotherapy or drugs




In western, "traditional medicine" (allopathic medicine) the choices are few. The debate of traditional "allopathic" medicine versus "non-traditional" medicine is neither here nor there.

In a modern, western culture a large amount of patients are not going to feel comfortable with "spiritual healing", or concentrating on their "chakra's", "inner energy levels" etc. to alleviate depression.

Quote:

EvilEye? said: to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.




Theres no evidence for this claim whatsoever.
A chemical imbalance is the leading theory of the cause of depression. There is no evidence that being "spiritually unwell" or having an "imbalance between someone's inner and outer being" is the cause of depression. There never will be. Which is why alternative forms of "self healing" will never be accepted by the majority in Western Societies.

In summary, prescription drugs are the most cost-effective and efficacious way of treating depression. Is the system perfect? Obviously not. I'd be interested to hear alternative solutions.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblemoog
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Posts: 1,296
Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4008757 - 04/03/05 04:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So... which pharmaceutical company do you work for?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: The happy pill [Re: moog]
    #4009246 - 04/03/05 07:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

moog said:
So... which pharmaceutical company do you work for?




LOL!
I don't work for a pharmaceutical company. I'm in the research field and all of my funding comes from government grants. These grants pay my salary along with a small amount of pocket change I get for teaching at two universities.

I'm well aware of the side effects of antidepressant drugs. Certainly they are not for everyone (and I've mostly been playing devil's advocate in this thread). However I do feel that for the majority of people they work quite well. Just as several in this thread loathe these drugs, I've met many whom have had there lives changed by antidepressants. I also feel the scientific data supports my claim of their generally positive effects.

Are they overprescribed and used too often? Probably. The fact is, with rising healthcare costs they are a good bet. Very often depressed individuals don't have access to healthcare, much less the luxury of seeing a pychiatrist on a regular basis. What are these people to do? Thats why I feel that using an antidepressant as a first line therapy is a good choice.

Additionally those whom have had adverse experiences are usually vocal about the use of these drugs. The public needs to understand that many of these drugs (and the study of depression in general) are in their infancies. SSRI's have only been intriduced in the early 90's. With time and continued research and development, they will only get better. People are quick to dismiss these compounds as inherently "bad" which hinders the development of what I feel are very important, and very useful tools. If a negative stigma is associated with them development will cease and we may potentially lose an interesting and therapeutic class of drugs.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4012972 - 04/04/05 04:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

chill out and munch some Prozac!!!

we're a nation of manic depressants, and who can blame us?


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP



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Invisiblemoog
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4013125 - 04/04/05 05:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The problem I have with prescribing anti-depressents is that it addresses the symptoms without addressing the root problem. OK, you're feeling depressed, take this pill and feel better. Don't worry about why you're depressed.

I thought the whole point of psychotherapy was to cure the problem rather than the symptoms. I think this is what people speak of here when they say "lazy." What if medical doctors did this? Suppose you had a cancerous tumor and were in terrible pain from it, and the doctor just kept giving you pain medication without doing anything about the tumor?! This is essentially what these psychiatrists are doing. A doctor should take the time to sit down with each patient and work out the root problem. Isn't that what they went to school for anyway? If they can't see all the patients that want to see them, those patients will just have to find another doctor. Hey, at least it would increase demand for jobs in psychiatry.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The happy pill [Re: moog]
    #4013170 - 04/04/05 05:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Most of all our medicine only treats the symptoms not the problem, I'll post a link if I find it...

But only a limited... a very limited amount of prescribed drugs deal with the issue versus the symptoms.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4013195 - 04/04/05 05:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Some of the best doctors are witch doctors.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4013196 - 04/04/05 05:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.prozac.com/common_pages/safety_information.jsp?reqNavId=undefined


"What are possible side effects of PROZAC?

Some people experience side effects like nausea, difficulty sleeping, drowsiness, anxiety, nervousness, weakness, loss of appetite, tremors, dry mouth, sweating, decreased sex drive, impotence, or yawning. Most of these tend to go away within a few weeks of starting treatment and, in most cases, aren't serious enough to cause people to stop taking PROZAC.

PROZAC can cause changes in sexual desire or satisfaction.

Do not drive a car or operate dangerous machinery until you know what effects PROZAC may have on you.

Contact your doctor or healthcare professional if you get a rash or hives, or other side effects that concern you while taking PROZAC."


No thank you... I'd rather be depressed  :smirk:

One wonders if the risks outweigh the benefits. People need to learn how to cope, and not to rely on a "magical pill" to drastically improve their life.

It's odd, whenever anyone suggest that an illegal drug has benefitted them, or if they are dependant on it to effect their mood, then shit hits the fan. The same doesn't apply to manufactured drugs that have negative consequences as a result of their use for some reason.

:shrug: Doctors employed by the research firms to promote their drug and please their shareholders know best I suppose.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: The happy pill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #4013203 - 04/04/05 05:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

:lol: I agree... selling the illusion of control of one's body, is nearly as good as curing a person.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: The happy pill [Re: badchad]
    #4020046 - 04/06/05 03:06 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psychiatrists have devoted a significant amount of time in medical school studying the causes, treatments and symptoms of psychological disorders. They are better able to recognize, diagnose and treat disroders then the lay person.




Yes, one reason this type is medicine is so incomplete is because it views people and their experiences as manifestations of well-researched, textbook disorders. Empirical science must of course largely ignore that even the "lay person" is a radically complex being whose physical and mental experience develops according to infinite potentials, possibilities and influences. I wouldn't expect all that to be covered in medical school.

Quote:

But what are the chances of this happening? How many great "music scholars" attend julliard and end up being horrible at what they do?





I'd say the percentage of music theory students who end up writing terrible music or none at all is the vast majority. Music and medicine both combine elements of high science and art. To execute either effectively is difficult.

Quote:

In a modern, western culture a large amount of patients are not going to feel comfortable with "spiritual healing", or concentrating on their "chakra's", "inner energy levels" etc. to alleviate depression.




Who are you quoting here? I'm not even talking about chakras or "spiritual healing", however silly you may find that notion to be. I'm talking about personal accountability. I'm talking about human beings embracing their potential. I'm talking about rejecting deply engrained patterns of seeking comfort and ease in light of the realization that life can be a lot bigger than that, even if it's hard and uncomfortable.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EvilEye? said: to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Theres no evidence for this claim whatsoever.


My actual complete statement was "Every person must work on their outer and inner being and to say that some are incapable of this because of chemical imbalance or any factor is false for the overwhelming majority of society.

Are you saying that there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate that the majority of people are capable of helping themselves? Man, what is this infallible body of evidence that you're accessing?

Quote:

There is no evidence that being "spiritually unwell" or having an "imbalance between someone's inner and outer being" is the cause of depression. There never will be.



Again, who are you quoting? And maybe you had better start at least defining your terms if you're going to speak in absolutes. Define "depression". Then define "spiritual". What about someone who is being dishonest with themselves about the way they are living their life. Hey, there's one simple and general example of how something other than a chemical imbalance could cause "depression". What about the person who feels that their life is without meaning because they never discovered a creative passion? How does your chemical imbalance theory translate there? What about the man who is miserable because western society has attempted to define him and he feels he is ultimately undefinable? Does that meet your qualification for evidence? There's three. Shall we examine this further?

Quote:

There is no evidence....which is why alternative forms of "self healing" will never be accepted by the majority in Western Societies.




Gee, it's too bad the majority in Western Societies is so hung up on clinical evidence to "prove" something that is a laughably inadaquate definition to begin with, isn't it? Or do you think that clinical terms are the ultimate in understanding the universe?

Quote:

In summary, prescription drugs are the most cost-effective and efficacious way of treating depression.



Again, define depression, or the statement means nothing.


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: The happy pill [Re: Viveka]
    #4020216 - 04/06/05 04:11 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Dont take any corprate prescritions, most of thems are copies of products available in nature, and most anti depresion medicine will make you nuts. for depresion take 2 tables spoons of powdered kratrom a day, its not a opiate but it will stimulate your opiate receptors and fix allot of depresion and anxiety problems

Plus depresion and most metal problems are all about internal chemical addictions, imbalances dont exist. when you feel anything relise its just a chemical in your brain, try not to take it in personaly and observe it instead, you will learn to feel better


Edited by AhronZombi (04/06/05 04:13 AM)


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Offlinestefan
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Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 8,932
Loc: The Netherlands
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Re: The happy pill [Re: Jon]
    #4020741 - 04/06/05 10:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I keep thinking that these pills are just images of an ideal american individual. Kind of like someone is behind all these drugs some how tilting the mentality of a nation towards a more seemingly happy resolution.



you sound paranoid

The pills are not making you a model citizen, they just change your brain chemistry a little so you can function better in daily life.


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