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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

Registered: 08/13/00
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Adam and Eve????
    #3981473 - 03/28/05 08:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I dont come here too often, so sorry if something like this has been posted before.

Does it seem to anybody else that from the very beginning, the Bible seems to try to discourage its religious followers from individual thought? It basically illustrates how Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, their eyes opened, and they were aware. But God was angry at them for seeking knowledge and punished them. It's as if this story is trying to convince readers not to try to learn. Not to seek, question, and continue expanding their boundaries, but accept what they are given and not to try to change it. In a distant way...it seems to me to imply not to question the bible and think for yourself because you will be punished for seeking knowledge. God wants us to be unaware and complacent (or maybe people in power want us to think he wants us to, so we are more easily controlled?).

Or is the story supposed to be more symbolic? To mean that we were originally animals in a state of ignorance (and ignorance is bliss, paradise, etc). Did we kick ourselves out of the garden of ignorance when we became human and aquired knowledge?

Even if that is the case, it still seems to imply that knowledge is a bad thing, and that it is better to not think/learn/search for answers yourself, rather just be content with what you are given/told.

i guess another point of view that could be taken from the story is that humans are greedy and God gave us a paradise, but naturally we wanted more, and that is our flaw. We are never content with what we have. But i dont understand why we would be punished for eating from the tree of knowledge. If this were the case, why not make it the tree of pleasure or something.

I just feel like, from the very beginning, the bible tries to give the impression that knowledge and seeking answers are a bad thing.
I mean the serpent wasn't lying...he told them that the apple would open their eyes and it did. If anybody was lying, it was God for telling them that they would die if they ate the apple. Why would God lie anyway, thats not very divine.

What do you guys think?
Slipknot


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:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3981553 - 03/28/05 09:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

but they did die?

anyways, i see it as God, being all knowing and powerful, has all the answers, and he wants us, or i should say he created us wanting us to seek him, and adam and eve, they thought by eating the fruit they would become wise themselves, and they did, but at the price of losing God,,,and the rest of the bible is man and God trying to get back together..

imo anyways..


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hello, your name is life on earth
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"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3981580 - 03/28/05 09:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think Eden is a state of mind, other than that I find the Bible to be just another account of historical events that have been talked up and corrupted through the ages.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3981584 - 03/28/05 09:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

we are spiritually dead, i could write on and on about this, but i recommend reading this teaser from amazon.

[Chapther 1- - Adam and Eve the story told from a different point of view]


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (03/28/05 09:25 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3981587 - 03/28/05 09:22 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I see Adam and Eve as a myth that concerns how mankind became concious and selfaware, and therefore became separate from the creation and distinguished from the animals. The trickster(serpent), as always, tricks us into accepting this knowledge and becoming responsible for ourselves.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3981626 - 03/28/05 09:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



The tree of knowledge &
The tree of life?  :grin:


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (03/28/05 09:52 PM)


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3981989 - 03/28/05 10:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, the flaw in your thinking here revloves around the idea that God punished Adam and Eve. But if you think about it there was no real punishment exacted upon them. God simply told them up front that they could stay in the Garden of Eden as long as they wanted on one condition...they could not partake of the Tree of Knowledge. If they partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge then they would die. (see Genesis 2:16-17)

When they succumbed to the temptation of Knowledge then they had to leave the Garden and live a mortal life, just as God had promised them. Although the language in Genesis chapter 3 seems somewhat harsh as God is casting them out, if you consider what he had promised them (death) its not suprising.

There are consequences for our actions. Adam and Eve knew it. That was why they hid from God after they had eaten the fruit. They knew what God had told them and they knew they were going to pay the price. Thats how I have always interpreted the story.


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You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Gomp]
    #3982073 - 03/28/05 11:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Miguel Ruiz is an excellant writer and thinker.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3982091 - 03/28/05 11:11 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

By my view Adam and Eve were not so much driven from the Garden as pushed from the nest.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 2,893
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3982162 - 03/28/05 11:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

yea...but as a result of breaking the rules, they were cast out

they broke the rules, they were cast out as punishment

if being forced out of paradise for breaking a rule isnt punishment, then what is?

Plus Adam didn't hide because he was scared of his consequence for breaking a rule, he hid because he was ashamed of his nudity


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 2,893
Loc: Another World
Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Gomp]
    #3982186 - 03/28/05 11:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

that teaser is an interesting point of view
i feel like it infers a lot that the bible doesnt really say though...


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3982196 - 03/28/05 11:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I just don't see that being cast out was punishment.  God told them they would die if they ate the fruit.  Leaving the Garden meant a mortal life....meaning eventual death.  There was no punishment, just a promise kept.

Thats just how I always saw it. :shrug:


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3982229 - 03/28/05 11:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

interesting
why do you think God was so insistant that they not aquire knowledge though?


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3982463 - 03/29/05 12:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think he insisted that they not aquire knowledge. It seems more like he gave them a choice between knowledge and immortality.


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


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Invisibledr_gonz
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #3982507 - 03/29/05 12:09 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Who taught God all the knowledge he knew?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3984321 - 03/29/05 07:53 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Read the first couple of chapters of Ego and Archetype: Individuation and the Religious Function of the Psyche by Edward Edinger for the best explication of the Biblical creation myth that I've ever read anywhere. Surely only a child or a simpleton would read this story and take it literally-historically. It is a very rich symbolic story that was psychospiritually 'decoded' by Edinger using the 'tool' of Jungian analysis.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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text: "evensong"/lester del rey [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3984332 - 03/29/05 08:16 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.palmdigitalmedia.com/product/book/excerpt/9933

read this story now!
no, seriously, right now...

i mean, whew...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3984348 - 03/29/05 08:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

the bible & the genesis stories of the garden...
yes, stories...
there are two creation tales embedded within the first book of moses, the book of beginning from the jewish torah called by english-speaking christians "genesis"... (& there may be at least 4 hands involved in the wrting of the 5 mosaic books of the "old testament")

& do know that there were (and probably still are) other less convential tellings of the genesis mythos --- from gnostics & manicheans 2000+ years ago the prophet muhammed to john milton & william blake & immanuel swedenborg & joseph smith & sigmund freud & carl jung & joseph campbell & elaine pagels (& here we are in the 21st century with the gnostics again :wink: ...)



there were two trees which the elohim wished the human creatures to avoid ("lest they become as us"), viz: the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of eternal life...

it is a very deep and ancient myth, mmmkay? lotta "resonance" if'n ya know whatta mean...
:wink:


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #3984469 - 03/29/05 09:58 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If amam and eve started to think, the thinking could only leave them to ignorance. They had no knowledge, so logic was useless. All they could do is trust god who did know things.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

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Re: Adam and Eve???? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3992992 - 03/31/05 01:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

huh? so its better to not think and be submerged in ignorance, than to think and risk being led to ignorance??


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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