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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3953285 - 03/22/05 01:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Starvation may be a little extreme, but I still believe they should end Terri Schiavo's life. Honestly, no one in their right mind would ever agree to live as a vegetable. If there's any provision for who we are, Terri Schiavo is currently trapped between two realms, waiting for her body to finally let her soul enter the next phase of existence.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953478 - 03/22/05 02:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Her husband wants her dead so he can inherit her money.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1110650465754_12/?hub=Health

Quote:

The husband of a brain-damaged woman being kept alive by a feeding tube has turned down a $1 million US offer to let his wife's parents decide her medical treatment.




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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3953709 - 03/22/05 03:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I understand that she has a 1 million dollar life insurance policy, as well as being the recipient of a couple million dollar reward in a court case related to her medical condition. Her husband stands to get all this (as well as social security survivor benefits) should she be pronounced dead. He refuses to allow her family custodial rights though they want them. He has another woman and I hear that he even has started a family with her, but refuses to divorce his wife... curious, very curious.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Autonomous]
    #3953721 - 03/22/05 03:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

didn't he already get the money (1 million) back in '92 or so from a malpractice lawsuit?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3953749 - 03/22/05 03:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I don't know. I'm just repeating what info my wife has relayed to me. I find that when I don't question her word that I have a better chance of getting conjugal visits. Personally, if I were in his shoes and honestly thought there was no hope for her, I would willingly give custodial rights to her parents, divorce her and go on with my life. It just seems a little fishy to me.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Autonomous]
    #3953797 - 03/22/05 03:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I wouldn't divorce her at all, i'd make sure the wishes of my wife would be accomplished first. I think here parents are in the wrong (if there is in fact a wrong in this mess).


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953836 - 03/22/05 03:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And most importantly this is about the validity of the rule of law. The declaration of independence guarantees the right to life. It is the primary function of the government to protect the lives of the vulnerable from those who would unjustly kill them.




Again, Article 1 section 8 of the constitution lists

Quote:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.




I don't see anything like what you described.

Quote:

If this woman is dehydrated to death by court order, then the rule of law is no longer valid.




The woman is dieing, but not by court order. The court has just stated that the parents do not have a case and it will not interfere in the matter.

Let me interject something here. I can speak with a little authority on this subject for 2 reasons. Reason 1 is that I have had to do what the husband is doing. Sign the paperwork to have some one removed from life support. I did this for my Grandmother, My Great Grand Father, and supported my great grandmothers decision to stop kidney dialysis and insulin, which resulted in her death.

The second reason is best summed up in a picture of me.




The biggest issue here seems to be that the husband has moved through the 5 stages of grief and has come to accept what has happened and can let go. The parents are still dealing with the grief and can not let go of the hope that she will get better.
The husband is not the only person who heard her make the statement that she did not what to be on life support. There are 2 other witnesses to her making the statement.

Now she is in a vegetative state. A person in a persistent vegetative state has damage to the cerebral hemispheres - the areas of the brain that govern sophisticated functions like consciousness, self-awareness and personality. However, the brain stem is intact, so the person retains motor reflexes, sleep-wake cycles and the activity of their autonomic nervous system. This includes the regulation of many functions essential to life such as heart rate, respiration and blood pressure.

Some of the characteristics of a vegetative state include:

* They can't wake up, talk or respond to commands
* The eyes may open in response to stimuli
* The person is able to move their body
* Heart rate, blood pressure and respiration continue
* The person can randomly laugh, cry or pull faces.

These are functions of the brain stem and not the conscious mind.

I have heard people voice the concern that she will be in pain. When my great grandmother died the doctors accepted her wishes and did nothing more than provide here morphine to help control the pain. Dieing by not using kidney dialysis is a painful way to go. It sounds to me that the decision should be between the husband and his higher being. In many ways I wonder if it will help the parents to move through there loss and accept the fact that there daughter is gone.

Well, this is just MHO on this. I for one think the courts made a good decision to not interfere with this.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3953917 - 03/22/05 03:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
i'd make sure the wishes of my wife would be accomplished first.



I think there is some question as to what her actual wishes were. As I understand it, it's her husband's word against her parents' word as to what she would have wanted. As I said, his position seems a little fishy due to economic incentives (but he may be sincere - I don't know). Mine wish would be to end it, although with an MDMA/morphine drip while I starved to death... with periodic oral pleasures whenever I awake.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop
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Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953918 - 03/22/05 03:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:

There are those who think that death is better than life. This is pure evil. There is simply a desire for death over life.

The culture of death is real. Evil is winning.



Maybe death is better than life, death is inevitable, it happens to ALL of us. You, just like these so called christians, have a deep seated fear of death. This is not healthy, and points to issues deep within your psyche, and a lack of true faith. Thinking death is better than life is not evil, hatred, intolerance, ignorance, and over blown egos are evil.......and that is exactly what comprises the majority of christians. Most "christians" aren't serving God, they are serving Satan. That is what is misguided, these "christians" & conservatives, not those in favor of euthanasia, ect. You're right about one thing though, evil is winning.....hatred and intolerance is everywhere, and it's growing. If you truely want good to prevail, than love, love all, and be tolerant & compassionate. Perhaps that is what is causing the Christian fear & hatred of death, the fact that they are not following Jesus's message, they are not serving God/good/love, they are serving Satan/evil/hate.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Autonomous]
    #3953985 - 03/22/05 04:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I think there is some question as to what her actual wishes were. As I understand it, it's her husband's word against her parents' word as to what she would have wanted.




either way the husband should have the ultimate decision as to what her future is. Unfortunatly parental obligation and control ends at 18, it's traggic and there's absolutly no good side but the parents should respect the husband's wishes.

Quote:

As I said, his position seems a little fishy due to economic incentives (but he may be sincere - I don't know).




the economic insentives were already given to him years ago. It's been 15 years, it's gone beyond care to plain cruelity. My wife and I already discussed what we want, the only thing we will do differently is write it out.

Quote:

Mine wish would be to end it, although with an MDMA/morphine drip while I starved to death... with periodic oral pleasures whenever I awake.




ha...or a combination of the two.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCyber
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Registered: 06/14/04
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3953991 - 03/22/05 04:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Most "christians" aren't serving God, they are serving Satan. That is what is misguided, these "christians" & conservatives, not those in favor of euthanasia, ect. You're right about one thing though, evil is winning.....hatred and intolerance is everywhere, and it's growing. If you truely want good to prevail, than love, love all, and be tolerant & compassionate. Perhaps that is what is causing the Christian fear & hatred of death, the fact that they are not following Jesus's message, they are not serving God/good/love, they are serving Satan/evil/hate.




Dark_Star, was that you at the party last month? I gave that same speech and there was this one guy who was transfixed on every word that came out of my mouth. By the end his response was "OH MY GOD!, your right"  :grin: I just had a deja-vu when reading the post  :thumbup:


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3954029 - 03/22/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps, where was this party at?.....I always believed this, but it was proved to me during an extremely intense LSD/hash trip. BTW, it's interesting, and very uplifting to see someone wearing the white collar seeing/talking about this. There is definately hope out there, evil may be winning....but the battle is far from over.  :grin: :sun: :heart: :peace:


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Edited by Dark_Star (03/22/05 04:16 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3954036 - 03/22/05 04:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't know Christians "hated" death. hmmph.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3954046 - 03/22/05 04:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, judging by the words and actions of most "christians", they seem to view it in a very negative way. Also, there are true christians out there, ones that actually espouse the love, tolerance & compassion values that Jesus was all about....so, if you're one of those, I meant no offense...I'm merely pointing out what I see.


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Edited by Dark_Star (03/22/05 04:19 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3954054 - 03/22/05 04:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

that's a big generalization. I know many people that fear death, it dosn't make them evil.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3954089 - 03/22/05 04:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, the fear doesn't.....the fact that the majority are very hateful and intolerant of people believe differently, as well as live different lifestyles does. People themselves aren't evil....hatred and intolerance is, and therefore any form of hate & intolerance serves evil. Think about it this way; God is love....Obviously, that makes hate Satan, and hating anything or anyone, gays, druggies, non-christians, pro-choice people, ect, ect...is serving Satan. Also Jesus was about tolerance, compassion, and was against church intrusion in private lives. Now, there are plenty of christians who are like this. Unfortunately, there are also plenty of christians who are the opposite, the ones that hate & are intolerant....and these are the christians you see & hear. I think many Christians are misguided, they have been deliberately mis-lead, however that doesn't make their hatred & intolerance right or justified. The issue here is this, many people suffer because of these "christians" (the false ones), and that has to change. Karma is real, you reap what you have sown. This hate & intolerance isn't limited to christians, it's fucking everywhere, and it must be rooted out if this we are going to bring light & love into this world. If we don't, than we're fucked....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how the world and the human race is spiralling towards destruction. We have to live in peace & harmony if we're going to make this world work.....and that means that these conservative "christians" that are sticking their noses into other people's business and trying to force their values & lifestyles on other people need to lay the fuck off. They are causing much pain and suffering, and causing much conflict....and they are going against everything their beloved Jesus stood for. Anyway, the issue in this post isn't christians, and whether or not Terri has the right to die, or the right to live....it's about the government sticking it's unbelonging nose where it has no right to be.


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Edited by Dark_Star (03/22/05 04:34 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3954261 - 03/22/05 05:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Simply, the original issue of this could be addressed by saying it is completely unconstitutional for the federal government to butt into this. Any rights not reserved to the federal government are given to the states, or the people thereof, and this is not a federal matter.

As for Terri herself, she should be euthanized without a doubt. Physicians have examined her and she is in a persistent vegetative state, her brain might as well be dead, and she is no longer a conscious human being. I've seen videos of her, and from what I've seen her eyes blankly circle, people move in front of her and she doesn't make the slightest response, she can't eat on her own, she can't speak, and she should just return back to nature.

No one should live like that, and money shouldn't be wasted to keep people alive as vegetables with no consciousness and no hope of recovery.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Ravus]
    #3954324 - 03/22/05 05:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well said.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Ravus]
    #3955159 - 03/22/05 07:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

How can you draw that conclusion from TV clips?

All reports I have seen (including legal documents) claim she is responsive, albiet in a limited capacity. She has even been reported crying and trembling after many of her ex-husband's "private visits". She is most definatly not comatose and she is concious. I think calling her a "vegtable" like she is just a piece of shit waste of money that doesn't deserve help is where I disagree most.

The question really is, when can we start killing people with irreversable brain damage? My brother has downs syndrome and his brain is "damaged". He cannot function in a full, normal capacity so should he have been killed at birth? Many people, admittedly or not, would say yes but having lived with him all my life, I would say no because I think he enjoys his life in a different way than most of us.

Should they "pull the plug" on her? I say probably but its not my decision. This issue is just not as simple as some people make it out to be or wish it was.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955196 - 03/22/05 07:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If it was her wish to allow her life to end in such a sitation then it is "as simple as people make it out be".


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