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InvisibleDark_Star
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Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation.
    #3950704 - 03/21/05 09:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I was surprised that this topic hasn't been brought up here, so here goes....I'm kind of hesitant to add to the furor surronding this poor woman, but I'm curious about your views on it, and the reasons behind these views. I believe it's bullshit, first off it's none of the governments business....and this case has been beaten beyond death in the court systems over the past 15 years. Second of all, they have more important things to do, such as working on the budget. The same goes for the steroid investigations, they have no place, and are a waste of Congress's time. Well, that's my opinion, what's yours?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3950734 - 03/21/05 09:40 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldnt starve my dog to death.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: DieCommie]
    #3950754 - 03/21/05 09:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Neither would I, but I have to agree with Darkstar on this -- it's not the business of the Feds. This is an issue for the courts of the state of residence of the actors involved. Even the Supremes -- for once -- did the right thing and refused to hear this case, sending it back down to the lower courts.



Phred


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: DieCommie]
    #3950818 - 03/21/05 10:03 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, as bad it sounds, she won't feel any pain whatsoever....however, in cases like this, I think euthanasia is the way to go, even though the starvation is painless, a lethal dose of morphine is definately preferable. Unfortunately this isn't possible....given our governments interferances in our personal matters.  :nonono: :thumbdown:


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3950826 - 03/21/05 10:04 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

There is so much that congress waists time and money one. Making and passing laws that they really have no power to do.

Try this, Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution outlines the duties of congress as follows

Quote:


The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.





I don't see a line that states that congress can tell the federal courts what cases to hear!


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3950923 - 03/21/05 10:31 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

It should be a Florida issue.

If I had to die I would want to try heroin and ride strong into the night. That starving crap is bullshit.


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Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3950975 - 03/21/05 10:45 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3951008 - 03/21/05 10:53 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

It doesn't matter how she dies, her head is full of water anyway - she literally has almost no brain left.

They should've buried her a long time ago.




Plus, I agree with the stuff about congress minding its own business.


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OfflineDongTrungHaThao
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: phi1618]
    #3951349 - 03/21/05 11:52 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

She may have a head full of water, but curiously a brain may not be necessary:

http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf015/sf015p14.htm

The moral crisis of euthanasia is that people foolishly subscribe to the illogical idea that the inevitable moment of death is somehow a right, which only sets the stage for it becoming a duty.

Terri is not in a persistent vegetative coma if the posts at www.Rense.com are to be believed. There has been no efforts at rehabilitation, nor "range of motion" exercises which are part of the normal care for coma patients ~ apparently because her "husband" doesn't want it done and would prefer her dead. What would be his fate if she were to recover and speak? She tries to speak now!

Were he an honorable man he would divorce her, ah, but for the money, and the loss of control of a persistent threat to his freedom.

We shouldn't be so eager to see people die: as Gandalf counseled Frodo when he wished that Gollum had been killed "Do not be so quick to deal out judgment and death. Many who die deserve to live and many who live deserve to die, can you be the one to give it to them Frodo?"

I for one prefer Dr Frankenstein to Dr Kevorkian.

Dong Trung Ha Thao


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: DongTrungHaThao]
    #3951451 - 03/22/05 12:05 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

The people at Rense are full of shit, she's not going to get better.....and according to her husband, she didn't want to be kept alive in situations such as the one she is now in. Of course he may be full of shit as well, but.....she is not truly living, and even if she recovers, she'll never be what she once was. I for one would prefer death, and I'd be very pissed if I was kept alive. She deserves to die, death being something positive, an inevitable conclusion. Death would release her, allow her to continue on to whatever is next....I think she deserves this, and I feel that it is past time she is granted it. I find it amusing as well as disturbing that christians, who claim to believe in Heaven, and claim to believe that Jesus saved them are so afraid of death, and seem to view it as an evil, something to be avoided at all costs. You would think they would view joining God in Heaven as a good thing, but instead they fear it. This points to deeply flawed faith & beliefs. Anyway, the true lesson in all of this is the importance of living wills, although I think that her parents would still be fighting even if she had one. Some people see only what they want to see, and can't let go. I think her parents are being selfish.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Registered: 09/24/04
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3951492 - 03/22/05 12:14 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Let the woman die for fuck sake.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: DNKYD]
    #3952039 - 03/22/05 02:27 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Too bad the guy can't prove her wishes to die, who the hell would want to spend their days like that? And the family isn't helping much with comments like " We told her we were gonna keep her alive and she turned and smiled right then and there". Reminds me of Ralph Wiggum : " Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me."


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3952361 - 03/22/05 05:55 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
I find it amusing as well as disturbing that christians, who claim to believe in Heaven, and claim to believe that Jesus saved them are so afraid of death, and seem to view it as an evil, something to be avoided at all costs. You would think they would view joining God in Heaven as a good thing, but instead they fear it. This points to deeply flawed faith & beliefs.


Exactly. It is very disturbing as well that many of the people defending the "holy right to life" right now would be the first to defend the death penalty. A few extremists among those people don't have a problem either with the assassination of abortion doctors. Go figure.
What this all points to is fear of death, I think you're right. If you fight to defend life at any cost, except to deal death as a punishment, it says a lot about how you view death, and how intensely you fear your own death. Maybe they figure that since they're hardly without sins (understatement), death is going to take them straight to the purgatory or, worse even, hell. I hope this will turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy  :hellfire:  :hellfire:  :hellfire:


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Aldous]
    #3952908 - 03/22/05 11:57 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

This whole thing makes me sick.

-- She said she wanted to be starved to death. Hearsay!

-- Starved to death. Bullshit! This woman is presently dying from dehydration.

-- It will be painless. What the hell would make you think this woman can't feel pain? She laughs she cries, she looks at people when they enter the room.

--Her husband wants her dead so he can inherit her money.

And most importantly this is about the validity of the rule of law. The declaration of independence guarantees the right to life. It is the primary function of the government to protect the lives of the vulnerable from those who would unjustly kill them. If this woman is dehydrated to death by court order, then the rule of law is no longer valid.

This just makes me sick, and you people who are so eager for this woman to die also make me sick.

There really is a culture of death. I thought for the longest time that those who favored the death penalty, and abortion, and euthanasia were simply misguided. If only they could be shown the error in their reasoning that they would agree that people should not be killed. This case in Florida is demonstrating that I was wrong. There are those who think that death is better than life. This is pure evil. The US court system has sided with evil over good, they have chosen death over life. There is no question here about whether it really is a person as in the case of abortion. There is no question about whether or not it is OK to execute those guilty of crimes as is the case with the death penalty; she is clearly guilty of no crime. There is question of death with dignity as is the case with assisted suicide; an agonizing death by dehydration is certainly not dignified. There is simply a desire for death over life.

There has to be something demonic going on here. Those of you who want this woman to die are wrong in the most fundamental kind of way. The base premise for your entire picture of reality is opposite from what it should be. The culture of death is real. Evil is winning. This is so disturbing it makes me sick.

Lord have mercy on us!


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OfflineC20H25N3O
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3952918 - 03/22/05 12:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
There is so much that congress waists time and money one. Making and passing laws that they really have no power to do.

Try this, Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution outlines the duties of congress as follows

Quote:


The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.





I don't see a line that states that congress can tell the federal courts what cases to hear!




That really is all we need, why should we debate this any further. Wether she lives or dies this post is about congresses intervention in this matter. Which was clearly unconsitiuional


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Calico Kahlia come tell me the news
Calamity's waiting for a way to get to her
Rosy red and electric blue
I bought you a paddle for your paper canoe

Say you'll come back when you can
Whenever your airplane happens to land
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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3952955 - 03/22/05 12:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

-- It will be painless. What the hell would make you think this woman can't feel pain? She laughs she cries, she looks at people when they enter the room.




Only her brain stem is functioning. The parts of her brain responsible for pain/pleasure and consciousness itself are dead. The twitching and movement are simply physical instincts or manifestations of the the brain stem. Do not mistake these easily-mistaken movements as consciousness - when they monitor her now liquified brain with an EKG, there is nothing - flatline, no brain activity whatsoever.

She is just a body at this point. Braindead.

You think we are "death hungry"? She is already dead, as far as I am concerned.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3953065 - 03/22/05 12:53 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I believe it's bullshit, first off it's none of the governments business....




:thumbup:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3953129 - 03/22/05 01:17 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I think you and many others are death hungry. I've seen the video of her, she is very much conscious. Why do you want her dead?


Quote:

She is already dead, as far as I am concerned




This is an illustration of what I'm talking about. Those of you who prefer darkness to light, life to death, cannot even accept that she is alive and being killed by court order. You are wrong in the most profound kind of way. God this is sick.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953151 - 03/22/05 01:23 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

> -- She said she wanted to be starved to death. Hearsay!

Wow, twist some emotion into the issue. No, I doubt she asked to be starved to death... no sane person would want this unless they were making a point. Did she ask not to be left on life support? I don't know...

> -- Starved to death. Bullshit! This woman is presently dying from dehydration.

Wow, lets get petty on definitions. Starved for water or starved for food is still starved.

> -- It will be painless. What the hell would make you think this woman can't feel pain? She laughs she cries, she looks at people when they enter the room.

How do you know she laughs or cries? Have you been in the room with her? I have only heard these types of claims from her family, not from any licenced medical doctor. Unless an expert verifies that she has brain activity, by using scientific/medical methods, I will tend to disregard such statements as emotional pleas from the family.

> --Her husband wants her dead so he can inherit her money.

What money? She has been on life support for what, something like 15 years now? I don't know, but my guess is that there isn't much (if any) money to be had. Is your statement a guess, or do you know for fact that her husband will inherit a lot of money upon her death?

> And most importantly this is about the validity of the rule of law. The declaration of independence guarantees the right to life.

And yet we murder murders all the time... the declaration of independence is not the constitution...

> It is the primary function of the government to protect the lives of the vulnerable from those who would unjustly kill them.

Allowing her to finish dieing is a far cry from killing her. Oh, and what is a justified killing? Just curious.

> If this woman is dehydrated to death by court order, then the rule of law is no longer valid.

... the rule of the law as you interpret it. Again, adding in the extra emotion from the deydration argument.

> This just makes me sick, and you people who are so eager for this woman to die also make me sick.

I am not eager to see this woman die, but I find it horrid that the people like you and me are sticking our nose into her business. This is between her, her family, and their beliefs... we should be respectful enough to mind our own business and not judge others.

> There really is a culture of death.

Life is full of death, it cannot be avoided. I would much rather embrace death than fear it.

> I thought for the longest time that those who favored the death penalty, and abortion, and euthanasia were simply misguided.

I still feel that they are misguided... BUT... it is not my place to decide for somebody else what their moral values should be. I was given the most blessed gift possible, the freedom to make mistakes and to save myself. Who am I to take this gift away from somebody else?

> There are those who think that death is better than life.

Some people have higher moral values than others...

> This is pure evil.

Why?

> The US court system has sided with evil over good, they have chosen death over life.

The US court system does not bother itself with good or evil.

> There is no question here about whether it really is a person as in the case of abortion.

Of course there is... if there weren't, we wouldn't be having this debate. The woman has no brain activity... she is brain dead... she isn't really alive, but her body is being kept alive through artificial means... this is the true evil if you ask me.

> There is question of death with dignity as is the case with assisted suicide

Dignity? What dignity does this woman have with tubes stuck into her body to pump in food and suck out waste...

> an agonizing death by dehydration is certainly not dignified.

Give me an example of a dignified death?

> There is simply a desire for death over life.

There is a desire for closure.

> There has to be something demonic going on here.

Why?

> Those of you who want this woman to die are wrong in the most fundamental kind of way.

Judge others, for they deserve to be judged!

> The base premise for your entire picture of reality is opposite from what it should be.

Funny, I would say the same about your position.

> The culture of death is real. Evil is winning. This is so disturbing it makes me sick.

Step back and look from another direction. I see where you are coming from, and to a large extent I agree with you... BUT... it is not my place to judge others... if I am going to err, I will follow the example given to me and allow my brothers and sisters to have freedom to make mistakes and continue to love them regardless.

> Lord have mercy on us!

Amen.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953265 - 03/22/05 01:53 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know what state or federal law says in regards to this situation. I can only give my opinions.

#1 The federal government should stay out of it. It is a state matter.

#2 I think it is sickening to prolong somebody's pain when it would be easier for them to just die. I also think it is wrong to keep someone's body alive by artificial means when it is quite obvious that they will never come back to physical or mental life. I would not want to live like that woman has lived for years. Death is preferrable to what she has gone through.

If I were in her situation and I was capable of communicating to people around me, I would be screaming, "Pull the Plug!".


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3953285 - 03/22/05 01:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Starvation may be a little extreme, but I still believe they should end Terri Schiavo's life. Honestly, no one in their right mind would ever agree to live as a vegetable. If there's any provision for who we are, Terri Schiavo is currently trapped between two realms, waiting for her body to finally let her soul enter the next phase of existence.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953478 - 03/22/05 02:36 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Her husband wants her dead so he can inherit her money.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1110650465754_12/?hub=Health

Quote:

The husband of a brain-damaged woman being kept alive by a feeding tube has turned down a $1 million US offer to let his wife's parents decide her medical treatment.




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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3953709 - 03/22/05 03:15 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I understand that she has a 1 million dollar life insurance policy, as well as being the recipient of a couple million dollar reward in a court case related to her medical condition. Her husband stands to get all this (as well as social security survivor benefits) should she be pronounced dead. He refuses to allow her family custodial rights though they want them. He has another woman and I hear that he even has started a family with her, but refuses to divorce his wife... curious, very curious.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Autonomous]
    #3953721 - 03/22/05 03:17 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

didn't he already get the money (1 million) back in '92 or so from a malpractice lawsuit?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3953749 - 03/22/05 03:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I don't know. I'm just repeating what info my wife has relayed to me. I find that when I don't question her word that I have a better chance of getting conjugal visits. Personally, if I were in his shoes and honestly thought there was no hope for her, I would willingly give custodial rights to her parents, divorce her and go on with my life. It just seems a little fishy to me.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Autonomous]
    #3953797 - 03/22/05 03:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't divorce her at all, i'd make sure the wishes of my wife would be accomplished first. I think here parents are in the wrong (if there is in fact a wrong in this mess).


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953836 - 03/22/05 03:39 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And most importantly this is about the validity of the rule of law. The declaration of independence guarantees the right to life. It is the primary function of the government to protect the lives of the vulnerable from those who would unjustly kill them.




Again, Article 1 section 8 of the constitution lists

Quote:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.




I don't see anything like what you described.

Quote:

If this woman is dehydrated to death by court order, then the rule of law is no longer valid.




The woman is dieing, but not by court order. The court has just stated that the parents do not have a case and it will not interfere in the matter.

Let me interject something here. I can speak with a little authority on this subject for 2 reasons. Reason 1 is that I have had to do what the husband is doing. Sign the paperwork to have some one removed from life support. I did this for my Grandmother, My Great Grand Father, and supported my great grandmothers decision to stop kidney dialysis and insulin, which resulted in her death.

The second reason is best summed up in a picture of me.




The biggest issue here seems to be that the husband has moved through the 5 stages of grief and has come to accept what has happened and can let go. The parents are still dealing with the grief and can not let go of the hope that she will get better.
The husband is not the only person who heard her make the statement that she did not what to be on life support. There are 2 other witnesses to her making the statement.

Now she is in a vegetative state. A person in a persistent vegetative state has damage to the cerebral hemispheres - the areas of the brain that govern sophisticated functions like consciousness, self-awareness and personality. However, the brain stem is intact, so the person retains motor reflexes, sleep-wake cycles and the activity of their autonomic nervous system. This includes the regulation of many functions essential to life such as heart rate, respiration and blood pressure.

Some of the characteristics of a vegetative state include:

* They can't wake up, talk or respond to commands
* The eyes may open in response to stimuli
* The person is able to move their body
* Heart rate, blood pressure and respiration continue
* The person can randomly laugh, cry or pull faces.

These are functions of the brain stem and not the conscious mind.

I have heard people voice the concern that she will be in pain. When my great grandmother died the doctors accepted her wishes and did nothing more than provide here morphine to help control the pain. Dieing by not using kidney dialysis is a painful way to go. It sounds to me that the decision should be between the husband and his higher being. In many ways I wonder if it will help the parents to move through there loss and accept the fact that there daughter is gone.

Well, this is just MHO on this. I for one think the courts made a good decision to not interfere with this.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3953917 - 03/22/05 03:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
i'd make sure the wishes of my wife would be accomplished first.



I think there is some question as to what her actual wishes were. As I understand it, it's her husband's word against her parents' word as to what she would have wanted. As I said, his position seems a little fishy due to economic incentives (but he may be sincere - I don't know). Mine wish would be to end it, although with an MDMA/morphine drip while I starved to death... with periodic oral pleasures whenever I awake.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3953918 - 03/22/05 03:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:

There are those who think that death is better than life. This is pure evil. There is simply a desire for death over life.

The culture of death is real. Evil is winning.



Maybe death is better than life, death is inevitable, it happens to ALL of us. You, just like these so called christians, have a deep seated fear of death. This is not healthy, and points to issues deep within your psyche, and a lack of true faith. Thinking death is better than life is not evil, hatred, intolerance, ignorance, and over blown egos are evil.......and that is exactly what comprises the majority of christians. Most "christians" aren't serving God, they are serving Satan. That is what is misguided, these "christians" & conservatives, not those in favor of euthanasia, ect. You're right about one thing though, evil is winning.....hatred and intolerance is everywhere, and it's growing. If you truely want good to prevail, than love, love all, and be tolerant & compassionate. Perhaps that is what is causing the Christian fear & hatred of death, the fact that they are not following Jesus's message, they are not serving God/good/love, they are serving Satan/evil/hate.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Autonomous]
    #3953985 - 03/22/05 04:04 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I think there is some question as to what her actual wishes were. As I understand it, it's her husband's word against her parents' word as to what she would have wanted.




either way the husband should have the ultimate decision as to what her future is. Unfortunatly parental obligation and control ends at 18, it's traggic and there's absolutly no good side but the parents should respect the husband's wishes.

Quote:

As I said, his position seems a little fishy due to economic incentives (but he may be sincere - I don't know).




the economic insentives were already given to him years ago. It's been 15 years, it's gone beyond care to plain cruelity. My wife and I already discussed what we want, the only thing we will do differently is write it out.

Quote:

Mine wish would be to end it, although with an MDMA/morphine drip while I starved to death... with periodic oral pleasures whenever I awake.




ha...or a combination of the two.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3953991 - 03/22/05 04:05 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Most "christians" aren't serving God, they are serving Satan. That is what is misguided, these "christians" & conservatives, not those in favor of euthanasia, ect. You're right about one thing though, evil is winning.....hatred and intolerance is everywhere, and it's growing. If you truely want good to prevail, than love, love all, and be tolerant & compassionate. Perhaps that is what is causing the Christian fear & hatred of death, the fact that they are not following Jesus's message, they are not serving God/good/love, they are serving Satan/evil/hate.




Dark_Star, was that you at the party last month? I gave that same speech and there was this one guy who was transfixed on every word that came out of my mouth. By the end his response was "OH MY GOD!, your right"  :grin: I just had a deja-vu when reading the post  :thumbup:


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3954029 - 03/22/05 04:13 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps, where was this party at?.....I always believed this, but it was proved to me during an extremely intense LSD/hash trip. BTW, it's interesting, and very uplifting to see someone wearing the white collar seeing/talking about this. There is definately hope out there, evil may be winning....but the battle is far from over.  :grin: :sun: :heart: :peace:


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Edited by Dark_Star (03/22/05 04:16 PM)


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3954036 - 03/22/05 04:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't know Christians "hated" death. hmmph.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3954046 - 03/22/05 04:17 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well, judging by the words and actions of most "christians", they seem to view it in a very negative way. Also, there are true christians out there, ones that actually espouse the love, tolerance & compassion values that Jesus was all about....so, if you're one of those, I meant no offense...I'm merely pointing out what I see.


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Edited by Dark_Star (03/22/05 04:19 PM)


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3954054 - 03/22/05 04:19 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

that's a big generalization. I know many people that fear death, it dosn't make them evil.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3954089 - 03/22/05 04:31 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, the fear doesn't.....the fact that the majority are very hateful and intolerant of people believe differently, as well as live different lifestyles does. People themselves aren't evil....hatred and intolerance is, and therefore any form of hate & intolerance serves evil. Think about it this way; God is love....Obviously, that makes hate Satan, and hating anything or anyone, gays, druggies, non-christians, pro-choice people, ect, ect...is serving Satan. Also Jesus was about tolerance, compassion, and was against church intrusion in private lives. Now, there are plenty of christians who are like this. Unfortunately, there are also plenty of christians who are the opposite, the ones that hate & are intolerant....and these are the christians you see & hear. I think many Christians are misguided, they have been deliberately mis-lead, however that doesn't make their hatred & intolerance right or justified. The issue here is this, many people suffer because of these "christians" (the false ones), and that has to change. Karma is real, you reap what you have sown. This hate & intolerance isn't limited to christians, it's fucking everywhere, and it must be rooted out if this we are going to bring light & love into this world. If we don't, than we're fucked....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how the world and the human race is spiralling towards destruction. We have to live in peace & harmony if we're going to make this world work.....and that means that these conservative "christians" that are sticking their noses into other people's business and trying to force their values & lifestyles on other people need to lay the fuck off. They are causing much pain and suffering, and causing much conflict....and they are going against everything their beloved Jesus stood for. Anyway, the issue in this post isn't christians, and whether or not Terri has the right to die, or the right to live....it's about the government sticking it's unbelonging nose where it has no right to be.


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Edited by Dark_Star (03/22/05 04:34 PM)


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3954261 - 03/22/05 05:18 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Simply, the original issue of this could be addressed by saying it is completely unconstitutional for the federal government to butt into this. Any rights not reserved to the federal government are given to the states, or the people thereof, and this is not a federal matter.

As for Terri herself, she should be euthanized without a doubt. Physicians have examined her and she is in a persistent vegetative state, her brain might as well be dead, and she is no longer a conscious human being. I've seen videos of her, and from what I've seen her eyes blankly circle, people move in front of her and she doesn't make the slightest response, she can't eat on her own, she can't speak, and she should just return back to nature.

No one should live like that, and money shouldn't be wasted to keep people alive as vegetables with no consciousness and no hope of recovery.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Ravus]
    #3954324 - 03/22/05 05:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well said.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Ravus]
    #3955159 - 03/22/05 07:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

How can you draw that conclusion from TV clips?

All reports I have seen (including legal documents) claim she is responsive, albiet in a limited capacity. She has even been reported crying and trembling after many of her ex-husband's "private visits". She is most definatly not comatose and she is concious. I think calling her a "vegtable" like she is just a piece of shit waste of money that doesn't deserve help is where I disagree most.

The question really is, when can we start killing people with irreversable brain damage? My brother has downs syndrome and his brain is "damaged". He cannot function in a full, normal capacity so should he have been killed at birth? Many people, admittedly or not, would say yes but having lived with him all my life, I would say no because I think he enjoys his life in a different way than most of us.

Should they "pull the plug" on her? I say probably but its not my decision. This issue is just not as simple as some people make it out to be or wish it was.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955196 - 03/22/05 07:54 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If it was her wish to allow her life to end in such a sitation then it is "as simple as people make it out be".


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3955279 - 03/22/05 08:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Right, but this case is different because only 1 person supposedly claims that and his motives are being questioned by those who were closest to them. This includes not only the parents but also doctors and nurses who were taking care of her and interacting with the husband. I think this would really be an open and shut case if not for the reports of the husband's questionable behavior.

The husband is the next of kin, but its easy to say "just kill the bitch" when you are married and have a new family. (that is an exact quote from a signed affidavit by the nurse, btw)


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3955463 - 03/22/05 08:58 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'm really disappointed in congress...

does congress really care about saving this woman's life? or are they just using her as a pawn in a political game?

there are plenty of people exploiting this tragedy to get on a soapbox and preach...

this whole thing should never have been made public.
congress should never have taken on this issue
the public should never have heard the name
Terri Shiavo
the fact that we all know her name and the details of her medical condition is a CRIME.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955468 - 03/22/05 09:01 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The question really is, when can we start killing people with irreversable brain damage? My brother has downs syndrome and his brain is "damaged". He cannot function in a full, normal capacity so should he have been killed at birth? Many people, admittedly or not, would say yes




no that's not the question. that's just idiotic. you're comparing completely different situations. there's a big difference between having brain damage, and your brain being no longer able to support bodily functions.

no one is suggesting that we start killing people with brain damage or with down's syndrome or anything like that. that's just silly (and don't even try the "slippery slope" argument here - people aren't that stupid).

in Terri Shiavo's case, it wouldn't be a positive act that ends her life. her brain can no longer support her body functions. if they do NOTHING she dies. do you understand? she is alive due to artifical medical intervention. they wouldn't be killing her. they would be letting her die. do you see the difference?


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3955489 - 03/22/05 09:06 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:

this whole thing should never have been made public.
congress should never have taken on this issue
the public should never have heard the name
Terri Shiavo
the fact that we all know her name and the details of her medical condition is a CRIME.



Wow, right on....I didn't think about that aspect of it, thanks for bringing it up.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955517 - 03/22/05 09:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I am not claiming to actually know her, but I don't base it just on video clips either, even though they were pretty sad to just see her there looking blankly into space. Others have claimed that she is basically as I described her, and while her parents claim that she smiles and cries at them, I think their emotions may be in the way of objective reasoning. I trust the physicians who've diagnosed her as having persistent vegetative state a bit more.

Can your brother eat and drink water on his own? Could he live without being hooked up to machines? Is he in a permanent vegetative state with basically no hope of recovery? I doubt it, he may be impaired but he is still capable, to some extent, of normal life. Terry might as well be in a permanent coma for all the normal life she would have lived, she may be able to open her eyes but other than that the comparison to your brother is quite a huge leap of reason.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3955545 - 03/22/05 09:18 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You are totally wrong. Her bodily functions work fine, she is just on a feeding tube. Do you have any idea how many people in the US are on feeding tubes right now, some who have no brain damage at all? It is not uncommon to be sustained with a feeding tube for extended periods of time...but that is not even my point. Im not saying she can return to normal functioning.

This has been brought to the courts, not because she is white, not because of some anti-abortion agenda but because there is a legitimate case here by the family. This case has been brought before the courts and she has been allowed to live but now it is being reconsidered and she is ruled to die. I agree that it is none of our business and I really don't concern myself with it but i think people are trying to disingenuously downplay how important this issue is to society and our lives on a daily basis.

Im not playing the slippery slope argument. I told you my brother has downs syndrome. Did I ever say he is not in a state similar to Terri Schiavo? Nope. You assume she is already dead or comatose but she isn't. She still functions and the bottom line is you have to decide when its time to kill a minimally functional person. This is really why it is a big issue.


Edited by Catalysis (03/22/05 09:24 PM)


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955575 - 03/22/05 09:24 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

"I think, therefore I am" - Descartes

Does anyone know what her parents legal claim is to her life? And how much money is this cost the taxpayers?


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955599 - 03/22/05 09:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

No, the parents do NOT have a legitimate case....which has been the decision of courts over, and over again.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3955601 - 03/22/05 09:29 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

The medical bills cost the tax payers nothing. This isn't Canada. How do you propose we solve our differences, if not legally?


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955646 - 03/22/05 09:39 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Are you asking me?

The medical bills cost the tax payers nothing.

I'm sure every time this goes to court and every time it reaches congress it costs me money.

If her parents have no right to her life then the decision lies solely with her (ex)husband. That's the legal answer. It shouldn't be a question of if she should live which is essentially a question of religious and moral beliefs.

The only reason anyone would consider this a huge issue is if they feel government should have the right to legislate morality. If they instead see this simply as an issue of who has the legal right to make the decision then it is a very simple case.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955706 - 03/22/05 09:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You are totally wrong. Her bodily functions work fine, she is just on a feeding tube.




the fact remains she continues to live only because of medical intervention. my point was that the withdrawl of treatment is not the same thing as actually killing people. your question: "when can we start killing people with irreversable brain damage?" is a red herring.

for the record, I'm opposed to the killing of terminal patients. that's what Dr. Kavorkian did. he would actually inject people with poisons to kill them and I don't think the medical profession should be involved in that. but when a patient is terminal and is being kept alive artificially, they (the immediate familty and the doctors) should be allowed to withdraw treatment and let nature take its course.

Quote:

She still functions and the bottom line is you have to decide when its time to kill a minimally functional person. This is really why it is a big issue.




again, we're not talking about "killing" a minimally functional person. we're talking about withdrawing treatment to let someone die. this is not a minor detail.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3955836 - 03/22/05 10:16 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sure every time this goes to court and every time it reaches congress it costs me money.




I never denied that, but it is insignificant compared to a lot of crap our taxes are spent on.

Quote:

again, we're not talking about "killing" a minimally functional person. we're talking about withdrawing treatment to let someone die. this is not a minor detail.




Ok, I can buy that. I tend to put things bluntly and I didn't consider the interpretations. However, if you are going to argue semantics, "withdrawing treatment" can mean many different things in different circumstances.

Like I said, I agree that it should not have been taken this far. I do believe that this is an important issue and it may have been a good thing to have been brought up. I know several people who have made a living will just because of this case.

Of course the government should legislate morality. Stealing and murder are moral issues and I think the government should legislate them IMO.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955870 - 03/22/05 10:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Stealing and murder are moral issues and I think the government should legislate them IMO.

Not because they are immoral but because they infringe on another person's rights. Those two aren't a matter of morality.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955919 - 03/22/05 10:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ok, I can buy that. I tend to put things bluntly and I didn't consider the interpretations. However, if you are going to argue semantics, "withdrawing treatment" can mean many different things in different circumstances.




yes it can. for example, withdrawing treatment against someone's wishes can certainly be considered killing. it all depends on what the patient wants.
if Terri Shiavo had a living will, this would be a simple case.

she has no living will, and she can't tell us what she wants.
but her husband has said that she told him she didn't want to be kept alive in such a state. I see no credible reason to disbelieve him. and I think he's being villified for questionable (political) reasons.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3955970 - 03/22/05 10:34 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, I think you and many others are death hungry. I've seen the video of her, she is very much conscious.




Her EKGs show she is brain dead - there is not brain activity whatsoever. No brain activity = lack of consciouness. Why is this difficult to understand?

Quote:

Why do you want her dead?




She should be in peace, not kept artificially alive because people who love her cannot cope with her loss and must keep her alive for their own selfish interest.


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Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3956093 - 03/22/05 10:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3956213 - 03/22/05 11:04 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

This has been covered many times, even in this thread. She certainly does have brain function and she is simply artificially fed. The medical classification of "brain dead" infers that treatment is to be stopped because there is no chance of survival and that is why the term is being thrown around haphazardly. Im not saying it is wrong to "pull the plug" but she is not brain dead.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3956370 - 03/22/05 11:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Perhaps, where was this party at?.....I always believed this, but it was proved to me during an extremely intense LSD/hash trip. BTW, it's interesting, and very uplifting to see someone wearing the white collar seeing/talking about this. There is definately hope out there, evil may be winning....but the battle is far from over.  :grin: :sun: :heart: :peace:




At a party in Texas. I had a guy that was an LSD lover and we spent a couple of hours discussing it as we passed the pipe. I was not dressed  as you see me in the picture. It tends to make people uneasy when a preacher shows up at a party, even if he is the one with the mushrooms  :grin: :hippie:


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3956820 - 03/23/05 12:04 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Ah....I wasn't there. I have to say this though, you seem cool as shit, I swore off churchs and organized religion, but I'd go listen to you preach. Seriously man, you're one of the few doing things right, I give you a lot of respect for that!  :thumbup:


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3956824 - 03/23/05 12:04 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You got issues dude. If you want to start posting pictures claiming to be a priest them let's see your face. Any idiot can claim to be a priest. Your ethics is not what I learned at seminary. Life is sacred. You do not represent the church.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3956928 - 03/23/05 12:16 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Matthew 18:6
Luke 17:2


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3956981 - 03/23/05 12:26 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
You got issues dude. If you want to start posting pictures claiming to be a priest them let's see your face. Any idiot can claim to be a priest. Your ethics is not what I learned at seminary. Life is sacred. You do not represent the church.




I do not post pictures with my face on them! That is just a personal thing, Besides what would a face show you? We have never met.

I do not debate that Life is sacred, but life is short and it all must end at some time. Is life so sacred that it must be kept going at all costs? Should we deny her wishes and keep her alive for another 25, 30, or 40 years because "Life is sacred"? Had the machines not been here to keep her alive, she would have died 15 years ago! Life is sacred but life does not end when the body dies! I support the decisions made by the husband following his wife's wishes and the courts decision to respect his/her wishes.

So tell me, what domination was the seminary you went to? Catholic, Methodist, Protestant, Mormon?

Your statement of "You do not represent the church." makes me wonder which church?

I am a Kemetic Minister and was ordained 2 months ago! I have my ordination paperwork hear as well as my certificate of ordination.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3956984 - 03/23/05 12:26 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Leary 4:20


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3957018 - 03/23/05 12:32 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

And what ethics did you learn? To hate homosexuals, to hate pro-choice people, to treat women that got an abortion like shit, to snub your nose at non-christians? I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. These "ethics" are completely against what Jesus stood for.....Cyber doesn't have issues, he's got the right idea. Cyber is one of the few true christians out there. You don't have to believe me, someday you'll die and then the truth will hit you harder than a mack truck and blow you apart like a nuclear warhead.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3957028 - 03/23/05 12:33 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I don't see the relevance of those verses in this discussion.

but this might help you:

Ecclesiastes 6
3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man- 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3957124 - 03/23/05 12:53 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I went to a Catholic seminary. I just checked up on what Kemeticism.
http://www.kemet.org/kemexp1.html


Your photo wearing the Roman collar lead me to believe you were a Christian priest. This is not the case. Of course you don't represent the Church. Sorry bout the confrontation.

BTW, why do you all dress like Catholic priests?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3957146 - 03/23/05 12:58 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
This has been covered many times, even in this thread. She certainly does have brain function and she is simply artificially fed. The medical classification of "brain dead" infers that treatment is to be stopped because there is no chance of survival and that is why the term is being thrown around haphazardly. Im not saying it is wrong to "pull the plug" but she is not brain dead.




I'm sorry but "brain dead" is exactly what she is at this point.

Schiavo recovery impossible, experts agree
Permanent vegetative state more severe than coma
Updated: 10:44 a.m. ET March 22, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7257835/

WASHINGTON - Terri Schiavo, at the center of an emotional and political storm over whether she should be allowed to die, will almost certainly never recover from her unconscious condition, neurologists agree.

She is in a permanent vegetative state, and no one has ever come back from such a condition, according to the American Academy of Neurology.

?Approximately 10,000 to 25,000 adults and 6,000 to 10,000 children in the United States are diagnosed as being in the persistent vegetative state,? the Multi-Society Task Force on Persistent Vegetative State says in its 1995 guidelines on the condition, the latest available.

?Survival beyond 10 years is unusual. The chance for survival of greater than 15 years is approximately 1 in 15,000 to 1 in 75,000,? it adds.

While most neurologists agree that recovery is almost impossible, the decision on whether and how long to keep such a patient alive is usually left to the individual doctor and the patient?s guardian.

Schiavo has been in the condition, which is far more severe than a coma, since she had a heart attack in 1990 that deprived her brain of oxygen. Under the medical definition, that became a permanent state after a month.

Her husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, has fought to allow her to die and courts have supported him.

The tube was removed on Friday after Florida courts rejected numerous last-ditch legal attempts by the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, to keep their daughter alive. But early in the hours of Monday morning President Bush signed a bill allowing federal courts to again intervene in the matter.

Looks may be deceiving
The Schindlers believe their daughter responds to them and her condition could improve with treatment. Tennessee Sen. Bill Frist, a surgeon and Senate majority leader, has viewed videotapes and agrees.

But Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and bioethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School, said reflexes can fool non-specialists.

?To the families and loved ones, and to inexperienced health care professionals, PVS patients often look fairly 'normal,'" Cranford said in a statement.

?Their eyes are open and moving about during the periods of wakefulness that alternate with periods of sleep; there may be spontaneous movements of the arms and legs, and at times these patients appear to smile, grimace, laugh, utter guttural sounds, groan and moan, and manifest other facial expressions and sounds that appear to reflect cognitive functions and emotions, especially in the eyes of the family.?

Such patients can even squeeze a hand in response to a caress, Swedish Covenant Hospital in Chicago says in guidance posted on its Internet Web site.

?Sadly, these actions often appear meaningful to hopeful families but are all automatic reflexes -- not movements with a purpose,? it reads.

?There are no confirmed reports of anyone fully recovering from a permanent vegetative state lasting more than three months.?

Cerebral cortex destroyed
This is because in such patients, the cerebral cortex has been destroyed, said Dr. Lawrence Schneiderman, a physician and bioethicist at the University of California, San Diego.

?Four to six minutes of anoxia, lack of oxygen, destroys that completely,? Schneiderman wrote in comments posted on the Internet at http:/seeingthedifference.berkeley.edu/schneiderman.html

?The rest of your brain, particularly the brain stem, can survive for fifteen or twenty minutes without oxygen,? added Schneiderman, who signed a friend of the court brief in July of last year supporting Michael Schiavo.

?What happens is that part of the brain, the cerebral cortex, which is us, our personality, who we are, how we think ? our capacity to experience, see, hear, think, emote ? that may be permanently destroyed.?

Experts say Terri Schiavo would experience no discomfort if allowed to die, as the part of her brain that experiences pain is unlikely to be functioning.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3957149 - 03/23/05 12:58 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Those were directed at Cyber. I thought he was a Catholic priest. If he was, he would know why they were relevant. He's not catholic.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3957188 - 03/23/05 01:07 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

ok sure. but what do you think of that passage in Ecclesiastes?

I think it's pretty significant. merely staying alive is not a virtue. instead, a life with purpose - a meaningful life is what is to be cherished. what do you think?


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3958092 - 03/23/05 08:32 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Your photo wearing the Roman collar lead me to believe you were a Christian priest. This is not the case. Of course you don't represent the Church. Sorry bout the confrontation.




No harm done, I was not clear on the point that I was not a Catholic priest. You should also note that the monolatry nature of the belief does not preclude the Christian view of Jesus Christ or the Christian view of God!

infidelGOD, what he was trying to say with those two passages is that I an leading the children into sin and (By the passages, although I doubt that he believes I should be killed) should have a stone placed around my neck and drowned. Although he seems to have missed the points of Romans 13:10, John 8:7 and Matthew 7:1-2

This has taken the thread a little off topic, which was not my intent. If others have questions or want to discuss this in more detail you can PM me, or I (or you if you like) can start a thread in S&P where it is a little more on topic.

Edit: Added something I forgot.


Edited by Cyber (03/23/05 10:05 AM)


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3958470 - 03/23/05 11:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, the fear doesn't.....the fact that the majority are very hateful and intolerant of people believe differently, as well as live different lifestyles does.




what do you define as hate? If they disagree with something it doesn't in fact mean they hate anything. I disagree with homosexuality, it doesn't mean I hate those that are and I am a Christian.

Quote:

People themselves aren't evil....hatred and intolerance is, and therefore any form of hate & intolerance serves evil.




Intolerance, hmmph, this word sprung from the political correctness of the 90's. What is intolerant? Is disagreeiing with a particular life style intolerant?

Quote:

Jesus was about tolerance, compassion, and was against church intrusion in private lives.




I don't recall one passage where Jesus mentions that church and private lives should be kept from one another. Where did he say this?

Quote:

Karma is real, you reap what you have sown




Karma is not real. Karma is a word hippies use to explain their bad luck.

Quote:

This hate & intolerance isn't limited to christians, it's fucking everywhere, and it must be rooted out if this we are going to bring light & love into this world.




I agree 100%, unfortunatly there are many "non-believers" who chastise christians every step of the way as well. Hate is everywhere in every group.

Quote:

....it's about the government sticking it's unbelonging nose where it has no right to be.




don't get me wrong, I am totally against the Govt getting involved in this. I think she has a right to die.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3958599 - 03/23/05 11:59 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

its no ones god damn business except for terri's family. Her husband is now her legal guardian, he has the decision. She's been a vegetable for 15 years. Thats along time.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3960272 - 03/23/05 05:14 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:

what do you define as hate?  If they disagree with something it doesn't in fact mean they hate anything.  I disagree with homosexuality, it doesn't mean I hate those that are and I am a Christian.





Hate is feeling hatred towards something, thinking negative thoughts about it, ect.....yes, not all Christians hate gays, but many do, those are the people I 'm talking about.....as I think I already said, you may very well be a true Christian, my post was about the posers.


Quote:

Intolerance, hmmph, this word sprung from the political correctness of the 90's.  What is intolerant?  Is disagreeiing with a particular life style intolerant?





Not tolerating something is intolerant. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone's lifestyle....there IS something wrong with not accepting and not allowing that lifestyle because you disagree. For instance, I disagree with hunting for sport, however I would never presume to tell people they shouldn't and/or can't do it.....and if they were persecuted in any for hunting I would be the first person to stand up in their defense.



Quote:

I don't recall one passage where Jesus mentions that church and private lives should be kept from one another.  Where did he say this?





I can't quote any passages on this, though I clearly recall him being against Church intrusion......plus I don't go by the Bible per say, it in itself is corrupted, and cannot be trusted as the true word.



Quote:

Karma is not real.  Karma is a word hippies use to explain their bad luck.





No, Karma is very real, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not.....and Karma is far from being a hippie thing, it comes from the earliest religions in the world. Christianity itself talks about it, just using different words. (Due unto others as you would have done to yourself, etc....)


Quote:

I agree 100%, unfortunatly there are many "non-believers" who chastise christians every step of the way as well.  Hate is everywhere in every group.





Christians are chastised because they have a long history of chastising and harming others......this doesn't make it right though. I'm as guilty of it as anyone. What we have to do is learn to live together in peace and harmony, and as now religion, predominately Christians & Muslims are getting in the way of this. You say your Christian, well Jesus loved all his children, and to be a true Christian you must do the same.....we all must do this. My problem with Christians is the fact that they run this country, as well as others and try to force their beliefs, values & morality on everyone else, and criminalize anything they don't agree with. For example; the War on Drugs. the attempts to ban gay marriage, the attempts to ban abortion.....and the vilification of people that get abortions, as well as those that are pro-choice.  All of that is WRONG, and must be stopped. Living in peace and harmony is not a far-fetched idea, but so far the majority of people are too blinded by their egos to allow this happen



Quote:

don't get me wrong, I am totally against the Govt getting involved in this.  I think she has a right to die.




At least we agree on that....that's a start.
:laugh:


--------------------


Edited by Dark_Star (03/23/05 07:43 PM)


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: daussaulit]
    #3960993 - 03/23/05 07:34 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Im not denying that withdrawing treatment is the best option. Im just saying show some fucking compassion and stop referring to her as a god damn vegtable. Thats not what "vegatative" means.

At first I just thought this was a sad story and I made a point to not take an opinion. However, I am sickened to see liberals all happy and excited to stick it to conservative Christians by showing that all life does not have equal value in the courts. She CAN feel and she is responsive when touched and she is fucking starving to death. The least you can do is advocate euthanasia along with death or just show some fucking sympathy.

Everyone seems to be using the "its ok to fish because they can't feel it" line of reasoning here and it is just not that simple. They are fucking strip-searching her own parents so they don't try to bring her any water.

This may be for the better but don't try to justify starving her to death by saying things like "she can't feel anything" and "she is just a vegtable". Those kind of attempts at justification just make your position look weak.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3961522 - 03/23/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

She CAN feel

Prove it.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3961733 - 03/23/05 10:27 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Bullshit!

Prove she can't feel.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3961756 - 03/23/05 10:32 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-03/aaon-dop032205.php

http://www.aan.com/professionals/practice/pdfs/pdf_1995_thru_1998/1995.45.1015.pdf

Quote:


Criteria. The vegetative state can be diagnosed using the following criteria. Patients in a vegetative state show:

" No evidence of sustained, reproducible, purposeful, or voluntary behavioral responses to visual, auditory, tactile, or noxious stimuli;




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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3961964 - 03/23/05 11:11 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

My real point is that people need to be advocating euthenasia if you advocate the removal of feeding tubes. You can't really prove what she is thinking, but have some compassion man.


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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3962296 - 03/23/05 11:58 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm...

From the same doctors who gave us Thalidomide and Viox, the ones who tell us pot is a dangerous addictive drug, who one year say butter is bad for you eat margarine, and the next say oops margarine is even worse. The hubris of doctors is amazing to me considering how often they have gotten things wrong in the past.

The definition is flawed in itself. Who is to be the judge of what is "sustained, reproducible, purposeful"? The judge who ordered that she no longer be fed or given water didn't even bother to visit her to see for himself.

Yet you say the burden of proof is on those who want to prevent this woman from dying of thirst! Guilty till proven innocent!

You are so absolutely wrong! The just and reasonable thing to do would be to reinsert the feeding tube until it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she can't feel pain. I saw the video; she looks conscious to me. And you side with those who want her to die of thirst without ever meeting her yourself to see if maybe those doctors were wrong.

You choose to err on the side of death. This is sad.


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InvisibleDark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop
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Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 31,859
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3962350 - 03/24/05 12:05 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

She has to die of thirst because pro-life assholes have decreed that we cannot hold power over our own lives. Cases like this should be dealt with by euthanasia.....and once again you impy that death is bad and should be avoided at all costs. That is very sad, and far from the truth.....death is comes for us all, it is past time that Terri is allowed to pass on, and continue on her journey through eternity.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3962396 - 03/24/05 12:14 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Dr Shulgin pulled the plug on his wife.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3963716 - 03/24/05 07:18 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Christians are chastised because they have a long history of chastising and harming others......




Christians are chastised for many reasons, them chastising others is probably low on the list. Many chastise them because they have different beliefs, they believe in something that can't be proved or disproved. This bothers many that aren't Christian (for various reasons). You do have your share of hypocrites, probably proportional to non Christians.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (03/24/05 09:19 AM)


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3963793 - 03/24/05 08:13 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You are so absolutely wrong!

That's your opinion unfortunately I've seen no reputable proof agreeing with your position.

Edit: Oops that was directed at Shroomydan.


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InvisibleDark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3966072 - 03/24/05 08:12 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I chastise them because they're responsible for my brothers and sister getting arrested, harassed and demonized for living different lifestyles.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3973996 - 03/26/05 10:26 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

and stop referring to her as a god damn vegtable. Thats not what "vegatative" means.

veg?e?ta?ble Audio pronunciation of "vegetable" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vjt-bl, vj-t-)
n.

1.
1. A plant cultivated for an edible part, such as the root of the beet, the leaf of spinach, or the flower buds of broccoli or cauliflower.
2. The edible part of such a plant.
3. A member of the vegetable kingdom; a plant.
2. Offensive Slang. One who is severely impaired mentally and physically, as by brain injury or disease.
3. One who is regarded as dull, passive, or unresponsive.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3974960 - 03/27/05 03:09 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

IF Veggie Shiavo had given her wishes explicit in a living will, it wouldn't be a big deal. Most people would respect her having her own will, but its her husband.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: SoopaX]
    #3974987 - 03/27/05 03:23 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
IF Veggie Shiavo had given her wishes explicit in a living will, it wouldn't be a big deal. Most people would respect her having her own will, but its her husband.



I have to agree here. I trust her husband when he says she wouldn't want to live like this, but as long as it's just his word against her family's, there's no way to prove who's right. I would prefer if she could just die peacefully, but I fear what kind of precedent this might set.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Silversoul]
    #3974994 - 03/27/05 03:28 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

yea, agreed bro, 100%


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: SoopaX]
    #3975003 - 03/27/05 03:32 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

It is interesting, though, that in a country where so many people can't even afford healthcare, we keep people like Terry Schiavo alive indefinitely.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Silversoul]
    #3975016 - 03/27/05 03:40 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

well it's not just her husband's word. there are several witnesses who said that Terri told them she would not want to be kept alive artificially.

over twenty courts have now heard her case and ALL of them have determined that that was indeed her wish.

only thing is, I'm sure she would have wanted it sooner, before her case got turned into a venue for political opportunists. thanks to them, it will soon become a national tragedy.


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: SoopaX]
    #3976885 - 03/27/05 07:30 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
IF Veggie Shiavo had given her wishes explicit in a living will, it wouldn't be a big deal. Most people would respect her having her own will, but its her husband.




Just a point of note, back when she first entered into this state, living wills were almost non-existant, especially for the average citizen. I wouldn't consider it terribly fair to knock them for not having one. (Not saying that you are, but some people I've talked to have brought that up as if it's a scoring point).


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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