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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3956928 - 03/23/05 12:16 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Matthew 18:6
Luke 17:2


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3956981 - 03/23/05 12:26 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
You got issues dude. If you want to start posting pictures claiming to be a priest them let's see your face. Any idiot can claim to be a priest. Your ethics is not what I learned at seminary. Life is sacred. You do not represent the church.




I do not post pictures with my face on them! That is just a personal thing, Besides what would a face show you? We have never met.

I do not debate that Life is sacred, but life is short and it all must end at some time. Is life so sacred that it must be kept going at all costs? Should we deny her wishes and keep her alive for another 25, 30, or 40 years because "Life is sacred"? Had the machines not been here to keep her alive, she would have died 15 years ago! Life is sacred but life does not end when the body dies! I support the decisions made by the husband following his wife's wishes and the courts decision to respect his/her wishes.

So tell me, what domination was the seminary you went to? Catholic, Methodist, Protestant, Mormon?

Your statement of "You do not represent the church." makes me wonder which church?

I am a Kemetic Minister and was ordained 2 months ago! I have my ordination paperwork hear as well as my certificate of ordination.


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3956984 - 03/23/05 12:26 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Leary 4:20


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3957018 - 03/23/05 12:32 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

And what ethics did you learn? To hate homosexuals, to hate pro-choice people, to treat women that got an abortion like shit, to snub your nose at non-christians? I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. These "ethics" are completely against what Jesus stood for.....Cyber doesn't have issues, he's got the right idea. Cyber is one of the few true christians out there. You don't have to believe me, someday you'll die and then the truth will hit you harder than a mack truck and blow you apart like a nuclear warhead.


--------------------


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3957028 - 03/23/05 12:33 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see the relevance of those verses in this discussion.

but this might help you:

Ecclesiastes 6
3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man- 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3957124 - 03/23/05 12:53 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I went to a Catholic seminary. I just checked up on what Kemeticism.
http://www.kemet.org/kemexp1.html


Your photo wearing the Roman collar lead me to believe you were a Christian priest. This is not the case. Of course you don't represent the Church. Sorry bout the confrontation.

BTW, why do you all dress like Catholic priests?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3957146 - 03/23/05 12:58 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
This has been covered many times, even in this thread. She certainly does have brain function and she is simply artificially fed. The medical classification of "brain dead" infers that treatment is to be stopped because there is no chance of survival and that is why the term is being thrown around haphazardly. Im not saying it is wrong to "pull the plug" but she is not brain dead.




I'm sorry but "brain dead" is exactly what she is at this point.

Schiavo recovery impossible, experts agree
Permanent vegetative state more severe than coma
Updated: 10:44 a.m. ET March 22, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7257835/

WASHINGTON - Terri Schiavo, at the center of an emotional and political storm over whether she should be allowed to die, will almost certainly never recover from her unconscious condition, neurologists agree.

She is in a permanent vegetative state, and no one has ever come back from such a condition, according to the American Academy of Neurology.

?Approximately 10,000 to 25,000 adults and 6,000 to 10,000 children in the United States are diagnosed as being in the persistent vegetative state,? the Multi-Society Task Force on Persistent Vegetative State says in its 1995 guidelines on the condition, the latest available.

?Survival beyond 10 years is unusual. The chance for survival of greater than 15 years is approximately 1 in 15,000 to 1 in 75,000,? it adds.

While most neurologists agree that recovery is almost impossible, the decision on whether and how long to keep such a patient alive is usually left to the individual doctor and the patient?s guardian.

Schiavo has been in the condition, which is far more severe than a coma, since she had a heart attack in 1990 that deprived her brain of oxygen. Under the medical definition, that became a permanent state after a month.

Her husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, has fought to allow her to die and courts have supported him.

The tube was removed on Friday after Florida courts rejected numerous last-ditch legal attempts by the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, to keep their daughter alive. But early in the hours of Monday morning President Bush signed a bill allowing federal courts to again intervene in the matter.

Looks may be deceiving
The Schindlers believe their daughter responds to them and her condition could improve with treatment. Tennessee Sen. Bill Frist, a surgeon and Senate majority leader, has viewed videotapes and agrees.

But Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and bioethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School, said reflexes can fool non-specialists.

?To the families and loved ones, and to inexperienced health care professionals, PVS patients often look fairly 'normal,'" Cranford said in a statement.

?Their eyes are open and moving about during the periods of wakefulness that alternate with periods of sleep; there may be spontaneous movements of the arms and legs, and at times these patients appear to smile, grimace, laugh, utter guttural sounds, groan and moan, and manifest other facial expressions and sounds that appear to reflect cognitive functions and emotions, especially in the eyes of the family.?

Such patients can even squeeze a hand in response to a caress, Swedish Covenant Hospital in Chicago says in guidance posted on its Internet Web site.

?Sadly, these actions often appear meaningful to hopeful families but are all automatic reflexes -- not movements with a purpose,? it reads.

?There are no confirmed reports of anyone fully recovering from a permanent vegetative state lasting more than three months.?

Cerebral cortex destroyed
This is because in such patients, the cerebral cortex has been destroyed, said Dr. Lawrence Schneiderman, a physician and bioethicist at the University of California, San Diego.

?Four to six minutes of anoxia, lack of oxygen, destroys that completely,? Schneiderman wrote in comments posted on the Internet at http:/seeingthedifference.berkeley.edu/schneiderman.html

?The rest of your brain, particularly the brain stem, can survive for fifteen or twenty minutes without oxygen,? added Schneiderman, who signed a friend of the court brief in July of last year supporting Michael Schiavo.

?What happens is that part of the brain, the cerebral cortex, which is us, our personality, who we are, how we think ? our capacity to experience, see, hear, think, emote ? that may be permanently destroyed.?

Experts say Terri Schiavo would experience no discomfort if allowed to die, as the part of her brain that experiences pain is unlikely to be functioning.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3957149 - 03/23/05 12:58 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Those were directed at Cyber. I thought he was a Catholic priest. If he was, he would know why they were relevant. He's not catholic.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3957188 - 03/23/05 01:07 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

ok sure. but what do you think of that passage in Ecclesiastes?

I think it's pretty significant. merely staying alive is not a virtue. instead, a life with purpose - a meaningful life is what is to be cherished. what do you think?


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3958092 - 03/23/05 08:32 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Your photo wearing the Roman collar lead me to believe you were a Christian priest. This is not the case. Of course you don't represent the Church. Sorry bout the confrontation.




No harm done, I was not clear on the point that I was not a Catholic priest. You should also note that the monolatry nature of the belief does not preclude the Christian view of Jesus Christ or the Christian view of God!

infidelGOD, what he was trying to say with those two passages is that I an leading the children into sin and (By the passages, although I doubt that he believes I should be killed) should have a stone placed around my neck and drowned. Although he seems to have missed the points of Romans 13:10, John 8:7 and Matthew 7:1-2

This has taken the thread a little off topic, which was not my intent. If others have questions or want to discuss this in more detail you can PM me, or I (or you if you like) can start a thread in S&P where it is a little more on topic.

Edit: Added something I forgot.


Edited by Cyber (03/23/05 10:05 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3958470 - 03/23/05 11:30 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, the fear doesn't.....the fact that the majority are very hateful and intolerant of people believe differently, as well as live different lifestyles does.




what do you define as hate? If they disagree with something it doesn't in fact mean they hate anything. I disagree with homosexuality, it doesn't mean I hate those that are and I am a Christian.

Quote:

People themselves aren't evil....hatred and intolerance is, and therefore any form of hate & intolerance serves evil.




Intolerance, hmmph, this word sprung from the political correctness of the 90's. What is intolerant? Is disagreeiing with a particular life style intolerant?

Quote:

Jesus was about tolerance, compassion, and was against church intrusion in private lives.




I don't recall one passage where Jesus mentions that church and private lives should be kept from one another. Where did he say this?

Quote:

Karma is real, you reap what you have sown




Karma is not real. Karma is a word hippies use to explain their bad luck.

Quote:

This hate & intolerance isn't limited to christians, it's fucking everywhere, and it must be rooted out if this we are going to bring light & love into this world.




I agree 100%, unfortunatly there are many "non-believers" who chastise christians every step of the way as well. Hate is everywhere in every group.

Quote:

....it's about the government sticking it's unbelonging nose where it has no right to be.




don't get me wrong, I am totally against the Govt getting involved in this. I think she has a right to die.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibledaussaulit
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3958599 - 03/23/05 11:59 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

its no ones god damn business except for terri's family. Her husband is now her legal guardian, he has the decision. She's been a vegetable for 15 years. Thats along time.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3960272 - 03/23/05 05:14 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:

what do you define as hate?  If they disagree with something it doesn't in fact mean they hate anything.  I disagree with homosexuality, it doesn't mean I hate those that are and I am a Christian.





Hate is feeling hatred towards something, thinking negative thoughts about it, ect.....yes, not all Christians hate gays, but many do, those are the people I 'm talking about.....as I think I already said, you may very well be a true Christian, my post was about the posers.


Quote:

Intolerance, hmmph, this word sprung from the political correctness of the 90's.  What is intolerant?  Is disagreeiing with a particular life style intolerant?





Not tolerating something is intolerant. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone's lifestyle....there IS something wrong with not accepting and not allowing that lifestyle because you disagree. For instance, I disagree with hunting for sport, however I would never presume to tell people they shouldn't and/or can't do it.....and if they were persecuted in any for hunting I would be the first person to stand up in their defense.



Quote:

I don't recall one passage where Jesus mentions that church and private lives should be kept from one another.  Where did he say this?





I can't quote any passages on this, though I clearly recall him being against Church intrusion......plus I don't go by the Bible per say, it in itself is corrupted, and cannot be trusted as the true word.



Quote:

Karma is not real.  Karma is a word hippies use to explain their bad luck.





No, Karma is very real, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not.....and Karma is far from being a hippie thing, it comes from the earliest religions in the world. Christianity itself talks about it, just using different words. (Due unto others as you would have done to yourself, etc....)


Quote:

I agree 100%, unfortunatly there are many "non-believers" who chastise christians every step of the way as well.  Hate is everywhere in every group.





Christians are chastised because they have a long history of chastising and harming others......this doesn't make it right though. I'm as guilty of it as anyone. What we have to do is learn to live together in peace and harmony, and as now religion, predominately Christians & Muslims are getting in the way of this. You say your Christian, well Jesus loved all his children, and to be a true Christian you must do the same.....we all must do this. My problem with Christians is the fact that they run this country, as well as others and try to force their beliefs, values & morality on everyone else, and criminalize anything they don't agree with. For example; the War on Drugs. the attempts to ban gay marriage, the attempts to ban abortion.....and the vilification of people that get abortions, as well as those that are pro-choice.  All of that is WRONG, and must be stopped. Living in peace and harmony is not a far-fetched idea, but so far the majority of people are too blinded by their egos to allow this happen



Quote:

don't get me wrong, I am totally against the Govt getting involved in this.  I think she has a right to die.




At least we agree on that....that's a start.
:laugh:


--------------------


Edited by Dark_Star (03/23/05 07:43 PM)


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: daussaulit]
    #3960993 - 03/23/05 07:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Im not denying that withdrawing treatment is the best option. Im just saying show some fucking compassion and stop referring to her as a god damn vegtable. Thats not what "vegatative" means.

At first I just thought this was a sad story and I made a point to not take an opinion. However, I am sickened to see liberals all happy and excited to stick it to conservative Christians by showing that all life does not have equal value in the courts. She CAN feel and she is responsive when touched and she is fucking starving to death. The least you can do is advocate euthanasia along with death or just show some fucking sympathy.

Everyone seems to be using the "its ok to fish because they can't feel it" line of reasoning here and it is just not that simple. They are fucking strip-searching her own parents so they don't try to bring her any water.

This may be for the better but don't try to justify starving her to death by saying things like "she can't feel anything" and "she is just a vegtable". Those kind of attempts at justification just make your position look weak.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3961522 - 03/23/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

She CAN feel

Prove it.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3961733 - 03/23/05 10:27 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Bullshit!

Prove she can't feel.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3961756 - 03/23/05 10:32 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-03/aaon-dop032205.php

http://www.aan.com/professionals/practice/pdfs/pdf_1995_thru_1998/1995.45.1015.pdf

Quote:


Criteria. The vegetative state can be diagnosed using the following criteria. Patients in a vegetative state show:

" No evidence of sustained, reproducible, purposeful, or voluntary behavioral responses to visual, auditory, tactile, or noxious stimuli;




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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3961964 - 03/23/05 11:11 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

My real point is that people need to be advocating euthenasia if you advocate the removal of feeding tubes. You can't really prove what she is thinking, but have some compassion man.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3962296 - 03/23/05 11:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm...

From the same doctors who gave us Thalidomide and Viox, the ones who tell us pot is a dangerous addictive drug, who one year say butter is bad for you eat margarine, and the next say oops margarine is even worse. The hubris of doctors is amazing to me considering how often they have gotten things wrong in the past.

The definition is flawed in itself. Who is to be the judge of what is "sustained, reproducible, purposeful"? The judge who ordered that she no longer be fed or given water didn't even bother to visit her to see for himself.

Yet you say the burden of proof is on those who want to prevent this woman from dying of thirst! Guilty till proven innocent!

You are so absolutely wrong! The just and reasonable thing to do would be to reinsert the feeding tube until it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she can't feel pain. I saw the video; she looks conscious to me. And you side with those who want her to die of thirst without ever meeting her yourself to see if maybe those doctors were wrong.

You choose to err on the side of death. This is sad.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3962350 - 03/24/05 12:05 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

She has to die of thirst because pro-life assholes have decreed that we cannot hold power over our own lives. Cases like this should be dealt with by euthanasia.....and once again you impy that death is bad and should be avoided at all costs. That is very sad, and far from the truth.....death is comes for us all, it is past time that Terri is allowed to pass on, and continue on her journey through eternity.


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