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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3955279 - 03/22/05 08:11 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Right, but this case is different because only 1 person supposedly claims that and his motives are being questioned by those who were closest to them. This includes not only the parents but also doctors and nurses who were taking care of her and interacting with the husband. I think this would really be an open and shut case if not for the reports of the husband's questionable behavior.

The husband is the next of kin, but its easy to say "just kill the bitch" when you are married and have a new family. (that is an exact quote from a signed affidavit by the nurse, btw)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3955463 - 03/22/05 08:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I'm really disappointed in congress...

does congress really care about saving this woman's life? or are they just using her as a pawn in a political game?

there are plenty of people exploiting this tragedy to get on a soapbox and preach...

this whole thing should never have been made public.
congress should never have taken on this issue
the public should never have heard the name
Terri Shiavo
the fact that we all know her name and the details of her medical condition is a CRIME.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955468 - 03/22/05 09:01 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The question really is, when can we start killing people with irreversable brain damage? My brother has downs syndrome and his brain is "damaged". He cannot function in a full, normal capacity so should he have been killed at birth? Many people, admittedly or not, would say yes




no that's not the question. that's just idiotic. you're comparing completely different situations. there's a big difference between having brain damage, and your brain being no longer able to support bodily functions.

no one is suggesting that we start killing people with brain damage or with down's syndrome or anything like that. that's just silly (and don't even try the "slippery slope" argument here - people aren't that stupid).

in Terri Shiavo's case, it wouldn't be a positive act that ends her life. her brain can no longer support her body functions. if they do NOTHING she dies. do you understand? she is alive due to artifical medical intervention. they wouldn't be killing her. they would be letting her die. do you see the difference?


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InvisibleDark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop
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Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3955489 - 03/22/05 09:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:

this whole thing should never have been made public.
congress should never have taken on this issue
the public should never have heard the name
Terri Shiavo
the fact that we all know her name and the details of her medical condition is a CRIME.



Wow, right on....I didn't think about that aspect of it, thanks for bringing it up.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955517 - 03/22/05 09:11 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I am not claiming to actually know her, but I don't base it just on video clips either, even though they were pretty sad to just see her there looking blankly into space. Others have claimed that she is basically as I described her, and while her parents claim that she smiles and cries at them, I think their emotions may be in the way of objective reasoning. I trust the physicians who've diagnosed her as having persistent vegetative state a bit more.

Can your brother eat and drink water on his own? Could he live without being hooked up to machines? Is he in a permanent vegetative state with basically no hope of recovery? I doubt it, he may be impaired but he is still capable, to some extent, of normal life. Terry might as well be in a permanent coma for all the normal life she would have lived, she may be able to open her eyes but other than that the comparison to your brother is quite a huge leap of reason.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3955545 - 03/22/05 09:18 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

You are totally wrong. Her bodily functions work fine, she is just on a feeding tube. Do you have any idea how many people in the US are on feeding tubes right now, some who have no brain damage at all? It is not uncommon to be sustained with a feeding tube for extended periods of time...but that is not even my point. Im not saying she can return to normal functioning.

This has been brought to the courts, not because she is white, not because of some anti-abortion agenda but because there is a legitimate case here by the family. This case has been brought before the courts and she has been allowed to live but now it is being reconsidered and she is ruled to die. I agree that it is none of our business and I really don't concern myself with it but i think people are trying to disingenuously downplay how important this issue is to society and our lives on a daily basis.

Im not playing the slippery slope argument. I told you my brother has downs syndrome. Did I ever say he is not in a state similar to Terri Schiavo? Nope. You assume she is already dead or comatose but she isn't. She still functions and the bottom line is you have to decide when its time to kill a minimally functional person. This is really why it is a big issue.


Edited by Catalysis (03/22/05 09:24 PM)


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955575 - 03/22/05 09:24 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"I think, therefore I am" - Descartes

Does anyone know what her parents legal claim is to her life? And how much money is this cost the taxpayers?


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InvisibleDark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop
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Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955599 - 03/22/05 09:29 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

No, the parents do NOT have a legitimate case....which has been the decision of courts over, and over again.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: newuser1492]
    #3955601 - 03/22/05 09:29 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

The medical bills cost the tax payers nothing. This isn't Canada. How do you propose we solve our differences, if not legally?


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955646 - 03/22/05 09:39 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Are you asking me?

The medical bills cost the tax payers nothing.

I'm sure every time this goes to court and every time it reaches congress it costs me money.

If her parents have no right to her life then the decision lies solely with her (ex)husband. That's the legal answer. It shouldn't be a question of if she should live which is essentially a question of religious and moral beliefs.

The only reason anyone would consider this a huge issue is if they feel government should have the right to legislate morality. If they instead see this simply as an issue of who has the legal right to make the decision then it is a very simple case.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955706 - 03/22/05 09:51 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You are totally wrong. Her bodily functions work fine, she is just on a feeding tube.




the fact remains she continues to live only because of medical intervention. my point was that the withdrawl of treatment is not the same thing as actually killing people. your question: "when can we start killing people with irreversable brain damage?" is a red herring.

for the record, I'm opposed to the killing of terminal patients. that's what Dr. Kavorkian did. he would actually inject people with poisons to kill them and I don't think the medical profession should be involved in that. but when a patient is terminal and is being kept alive artificially, they (the immediate familty and the doctors) should be allowed to withdraw treatment and let nature take its course.

Quote:

She still functions and the bottom line is you have to decide when its time to kill a minimally functional person. This is really why it is a big issue.




again, we're not talking about "killing" a minimally functional person. we're talking about withdrawing treatment to let someone die. this is not a minor detail.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3955836 - 03/22/05 10:16 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sure every time this goes to court and every time it reaches congress it costs me money.




I never denied that, but it is insignificant compared to a lot of crap our taxes are spent on.

Quote:

again, we're not talking about "killing" a minimally functional person. we're talking about withdrawing treatment to let someone die. this is not a minor detail.




Ok, I can buy that. I tend to put things bluntly and I didn't consider the interpretations. However, if you are going to argue semantics, "withdrawing treatment" can mean many different things in different circumstances.

Like I said, I agree that it should not have been taken this far. I do believe that this is an important issue and it may have been a good thing to have been brought up. I know several people who have made a living will just because of this case.

Of course the government should legislate morality. Stealing and murder are moral issues and I think the government should legislate them IMO.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955870 - 03/22/05 10:21 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Stealing and murder are moral issues and I think the government should legislate them IMO.

Not because they are immoral but because they infringe on another person's rights. Those two aren't a matter of morality.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3955919 - 03/22/05 10:28 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ok, I can buy that. I tend to put things bluntly and I didn't consider the interpretations. However, if you are going to argue semantics, "withdrawing treatment" can mean many different things in different circumstances.




yes it can. for example, withdrawing treatment against someone's wishes can certainly be considered killing. it all depends on what the patient wants.
if Terri Shiavo had a living will, this would be a simple case.

she has no living will, and she can't tell us what she wants.
but her husband has said that she told him she didn't want to be kept alive in such a state. I see no credible reason to disbelieve him. and I think he's being villified for questionable (political) reasons.


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: shroomydan]
    #3955970 - 03/22/05 10:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, I think you and many others are death hungry. I've seen the video of her, she is very much conscious.




Her EKGs show she is brain dead - there is not brain activity whatsoever. No brain activity = lack of consciouness. Why is this difficult to understand?

Quote:

Why do you want her dead?




She should be in peace, not kept artificially alive because people who love her cannot cope with her loss and must keep her alive for their own selfish interest.


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Congress & Bush's interferance in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Catalysis]
    #3956093 - 03/22/05 10:51 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)



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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3956213 - 03/22/05 11:04 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

This has been covered many times, even in this thread. She certainly does have brain function and she is simply artificially fed. The medical classification of "brain dead" infers that treatment is to be stopped because there is no chance of survival and that is why the term is being thrown around haphazardly. Im not saying it is wrong to "pull the plug" but she is not brain dead.


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OfflineCyber
Ash
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 7 months, 25 days
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3956370 - 03/22/05 11:26 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Perhaps, where was this party at?.....I always believed this, but it was proved to me during an extremely intense LSD/hash trip. BTW, it's interesting, and very uplifting to see someone wearing the white collar seeing/talking about this. There is definately hope out there, evil may be winning....but the battle is far from over.  :grin: :sun: :heart: :peace:




At a party in Texas. I had a guy that was an LSD lover and we spent a couple of hours discussing it as we passed the pipe. I was not dressed  as you see me in the picture. It tends to make people uneasy when a preacher shows up at a party, even if he is the one with the mushrooms  :grin: :hippie:


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InvisibleDark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3956820 - 03/23/05 12:04 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Ah....I wasn't there. I have to say this though, you seem cool as shit, I swore off churchs and organized religion, but I'd go listen to you preach. Seriously man, you're one of the few doing things right, I give you a lot of respect for that!  :thumbup:


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Invisibleshroomydan
exshroomerite
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Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
Re: Congress & Bush's in the Terri Schiavo situation. [Re: Cyber]
    #3956824 - 03/23/05 12:04 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

You got issues dude. If you want to start posting pictures claiming to be a priest them let's see your face. Any idiot can claim to be a priest. Your ethics is not what I learned at seminary. Life is sacred. You do not represent the church.


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