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OfflineJCoke
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ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much?
    #3950636 - 03/21/05 09:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
who cares about all the animals who are slaughtered so they can have their good ol Christian steak and potatoes.




not an attack agaist you joo, but after reading that, i got to ask you all..

I don't see how the cow is more important than the bee hive and took care of with bug killer spray the other day, nor do I see the genocide of blades of grass I cut down each week less important than the oh so holy cow, I also would'nt mind seeing a lion tear the shit out of a man anymore than I see lions tear the shit out of zebras, why our animals so cared for?

imo, the ecoterroist are wasting our time when bullshit like this stuff about chickins and cows being brutally slaughtered, they act like it's a secret, i really don't see any of it being hidden nor do i care, please, unless an animal is indangered, i really could careless about the death of cows, please tell why i should care?


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3950684 - 03/21/05 09:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

no offense taken

Quote:

JCoke said:
imo, the ecoterroist are wasting our time when bullshit like this stuff about chickins and cows being brutally slaughtered, they act like it's a secret, i really don't see any of it being hidden nor do i care,




that's cause you don't have something called 'compassion'.
Compassion is where you imagine the suffering of another creature as if it were happening to yourself. I know it's kind of an abstract and weird concept but a lot of stuff in this forum is. I'm only teasing you of course but I mean, that's why I feel sorry for 'chickins' and cows. I know chickens don't mentally think to themselves "oh goodness i've had such a crummy life and now I am going to be boiled alive" or "oh this boiling water sure feels terrible" but on whatever level of consciousness they experience their existence they really really are experiencing these things and it's not right when there are more humane ways of doing it. Even if you've never had a dog or cat as a pet, I hope you could at least realize that a newborn baby probably has a level of consciousness similar to a chicken or cow. If we clipped off the lips of a newborn baby, or locked them in a tiny wire cage all day, it would be like the worse kind of atrocity ever. That's the disassociation people do. It's bullshit.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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OfflineBoglyn
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3950693 - 03/21/05 09:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)


Does a wolf have compassion when he eats his meal?

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
no offense taken

Quote:

JCoke said:
imo, the ecoterroist are wasting our time when bullshit like this stuff about chickins and cows being brutally slaughtered, they act like it's a secret, i really don't see any of it being hidden nor do i care,




that's cause you don't have something called 'compassion'.
Compassion is where you imagine the suffering of another creature as if it were happening to yourself. I know it's kind of an abstract and weird concept but a lot of stuff in this forum is. I'm only teasing you of course but I mean, that's why I feel sorry for 'chickins' and cows. I know chickens don't mentally think to themselves "oh goodness i've had such a crummy life and now I am going to be boiled alive" or "oh this boiling water sure feels terrible" but on whatever level of consciousness they experience their existence they really really are experiencing these things and it's not right when there are more humane ways of doing it. Even if you've never had a dog or cat as a pet, I hope you could at least realize that a newborn baby probably has a level of consciousness similar to a chicken or cow. If we clipped off the lips of a newborn baby, or locked them in a tiny wire cage all day, it would be like the worse kind of atrocity ever. That's the disassociation people do. It's bullshit.




--------------------
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.
---Galileo


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3950696 - 03/21/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JCoke said:
Quote:

question_for_joo said:
who cares about all the animals who are slaughtered so they can have their good ol Christian steak and potatoes.




not an attack agaist you joo, but after reading that, i got to ask you all..

I don't see how the cow is more important than the bee hive and took care of with bug killer spray the other day, nor do I see the genocide of blades of grass I cut down each week less important than the oh so holy cow, I also would'nt mind seeing a lion tear the shit out of a man anymore than I see lions tear the shit out of zebras, why our animals so cared for?

imo, the ecoterroist are wasting our time when bullshit like this stuff about chickins and cows being brutally slaughtered, they act like it's a secret, i really don't see any of it being hidden nor do i care, please, unless an animal is indangered, i really could careless about the death of cows, please tell why i should care?





every being has the right to life. im sure you enjoy your life just as much as those cows or chickens enjoyed thiers. live and let live. kill if you must survive, but do it with dignity and respect for the animal. we are all just different manifestations of the divine.


--------------------


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: Boglyn]
    #3950701 - 03/21/05 09:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Does a wolf have an industrial warehouse half a mile long full of lambs hitched up as biological machines?


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3950719 - 03/21/05 09:34 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
no offense taken

Quote:

JCoke said:
imo, the ecoterroist are wasting our time when bullshit like this stuff about chickins and cows being brutally slaughtered, they act like it's a secret, i really don't see any of it being hidden nor do i care,




that's cause you don't have something called 'compassion'.
Compassion is where you imagine the suffering of another creature as if it were happening to yourself. I know it's kind of an abstract and weird concept but a lot of stuff in this forum is. I'm only teasing you of course but I mean, that's why I feel sorry for 'chickins' and cows. I know chickens don't mentally think to themselves "oh goodness i've had such a crummy life and now I am going to be boiled alive" or "oh this boiling water sure feels terrible" but on whatever level of consciousness they experience their existence they really really are experiencing these things and it's not right when there are more humane ways of doing it. Even if you've never had a dog or cat as a pet, I hope you could at least realize that a newborn baby probably has a level of consciousness similar to a chicken or cow. If we clipped off the lips of a newborn baby, or locked them in a tiny wire cage all day, it would be like the worse kind of atrocity ever. That's the disassociation people do. It's bullshit.




for your's and other's sake, I would love to see a better more humane way of doing it..

an interesting thing to note, pain and pleasure, hot and cold, nothing but hallucinations, i've seen many stories of wild feral children and Kids raised in extreme isolation and when they do get discovered and brought into civilazation, they have no concept of hot and cold, they run around butt naked in two feet of snow with out even noticing the diffrence or even put there hands in boiling water, does nothing to there emotions, if you ever seen the cover to rage against the machines first albums cover, i think that's proof it can be ignored and overcome, but anyways, that's just how i look at animals and other forms of life, no concept of pain..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineBoglyn
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3950727 - 03/21/05 09:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I bet if that wolf was hungry he would have no problem eating those lambs. I also dont think he would feel bad about it.

I think having respect for what you are eating is key but not feeling pity for sustaining yourself.


--------------------
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do.
---Galileo


Edited by Boglyn (03/21/05 09:39 PM)


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3950761 - 03/21/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

There are tons of more humane ways of doing it. The way it used to be done for centuries in human past for example:


as oppose to what the combination of human overpopulation and corporate greed has produced:


as for the rest of it, ok I agree, there are people and animals who have desensitized themselves to pain...but it's just a rhetorical distraction. look at what's true for 99% of people/animals. if you want to spend the years of practice required where you can hold your fist in boiling water without whimpering and demonstrate it for me then you can eat all the veal you want, guilt free. human beings are just chimps with bigger brains, the nervous system functions exactly the same as other mammals..


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3950920 - 03/21/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm always amazed when I see a post like this. It's not that animals and plants won't be killed and eaten. It's about causing needless, selfish suffering.

The way animals are treated in this country is way beyond shameful.

Anyone who can't see this is fully asleep.

If you were go live one day in the life of a factory farmed animal you would understand.  :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3951460 - 03/22/05 12:07 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I used to think simply, these animals are meant for consumption. That is their purpose in life and there was no reason to be bothered about the conditions in which they are treated because that is just life. It is not always nice and pleasant and thats just how things are. I accepted this for a while and pretty much still due, however I watched the movie baraka: a world beyond words and there is this one scene where they have this chick factory and they are just tossing the little baby chicks around as if they were some plastic product. Then burning the beaks of the good chicks, lets just say it gave me a newfound respect for animals.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3951484 - 03/22/05 12:11 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

chickens are hung upside down while still alive, skinned by some machine (while still alive), and then lowered into a water pool that electricutes them to kill them.

why should humans care for animals? compassion. if you ask why we should have compassion, then you have alot to learn.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: Boglyn]
    #3951488 - 03/22/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Does a wolf have compassion when he eats his meal?




No - they do not. Are humans wolves? No.


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: Vvellum]
    #3952121 - 03/22/05 02:58 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
chickens are hung upside down while still alive, skinned by some machine (while still alive), and then lowered into a water pool that electricutes them to kill them.

why should humans care for animals? compassion. if you ask why we should have compassion, then you have alot to learn.




I know thats some sick shit right there, but than I just find it hard to see the diffrence between one form of life and another, as in insects and mammals, plants and humans, I would love to say i have compassion for all life, but that's just not true, I cut the grass and so does most everyone else I know, why should I feel guilty about chickins being skinned alive and not grass being skinned alive??

I don't think chickens have much more to feel or say than anything else on earth...except for us humans, we kick ass,,,(minus the retards).. :stoned: :thumbup:

(relax, I joke, I joke because I care and love,,,i'm quite retarded myself so i can joke about it.  :grin:)


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3952363 - 03/22/05 05:56 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JCoke said:
that's just how i look at animals and other forms of life, no concept of pain..




this is absolutely not true.

for years my grandmother told me about the day of the month in her village, when the road became full of cattle going down to the slaughterhouse and as the animals passed by you could hear them moan and cry.
she said they could feel death coming, somehow they new their last moment was about to happen.

do you really think animals feel no pain? any animal with a developed nervous system will know what pain is.


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: a_h_w]
    #3952690 - 03/22/05 10:21 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

a_h_w said:
Quote:

JCoke said:
that's just how i look at animals and other forms of life, no concept of pain..



for years my grandmother told me about the day of the month in her village, when the road became full of cattle going down to the slaughterhouse and as the animals passed by you could hear them moan and cry.
she said they could feel death coming, somehow they new their last moment was about to happen.




i'd like to believe those cows were crying but i'm pretty sure they moo like that all time (even all through out the night), i've live next to a farm my whole life, I never saw much of a diffrence between the cows and corn growing next to them..

when i was a kid, me and my brother and friends would chase them (and this I think I should be regretting now) around throwing rocks and hitting them with sticks out of our boredom, when a cow feels it's in danger, It go's "MOO!", it does'nt really cry,,,of course it also go's "MOO!" when there humping one another, go figure,,your grandmother's phsychic dr. doolittle ability to talk with animals sure sounds impressive, but i find that a little harder to believe than animals having emotions,

besides, maybe by giving the cows something to do by running from me, i gave those cows a little fun in there lives, there dull pointless lives, eating grass, walking,,, mooing..

(again, no offence anyone, this logic just goes over my head..and kid because i care. :grin: :thumbup:)


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


Edited by JCoke (03/22/05 10:31 AM)


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3952880 - 03/22/05 11:45 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I sure understand your opinion on what my grandmother says, though I don't agree with it. the point here however was that you were saying animals have no concept of pain. well, then it seems rather strange that they should have the concept of danger!
what should they be afraid of?
and isn't fear an emotion?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3952906 - 03/22/05 11:56 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

lawn grass and other plants do not have a central nervous system, while animals do. That is the difference. Do you really believe animals feel no pain?

Quote:


Do Animals Feel Pain? by Peter Singer


Do animals other than humans feel pain? How do we know? Well, how do we know if anyone, human or nonhuman, feels pain? We know that we ourselves can feel pain. We know this from the direct experience of pain that we have when, for instance, somebody presses a lighted cigarette against the back of our hand. But how do we know that anyone else feels pain? We cannot directly experience anyone else's pain, whether that "anyone" is our best friend or a stray dog. Pain is a state of consciousness, a "mental event", and as such it can never be observed. Behavior like writhing, screaming, or drawing one's hand away from the lighted cigarette is not pain itself; nor are the recordings a neurologist might make of activity within the brain observations of pain itself. Pain is something that we feel, and we can only infer that others are feeling it from various external indications. [?]

If it is justifiable to assume that other human beings feel pain as we do, is there any reason why a similar inference should not be justifiable in the case of other animals?

Nearly all the external signs that lead us to infer pain in other humans can be seen in other species, especially the species most closely related to us--the species of mammals and birds. The behavioral signs include writhing, facial contortions, moaning, yelping or other forms of calling, attempts to avoid the source of the pain, appearance of fear at the prospect of its repetition, and so on. In addition, we know that these animals have nervous systems very like ours, which respond physiologically like ours do when the animal is in circumstances in which we would feel pain: an initial rise of blood pressure, dilated pupils, perspiration, an increased pulse rate, and, if the stimulus continues, a fall in blood pressure. Although human beings have a more developed cerebral cortex than other animals, this part of the brain is concerned with thinking functions rather than with basic impulses, emotions, and feelings. These impulses, emotions, and feelings are located in the diencephalon, which is well developed in many other species of animals, especially mammals and birds.[1]

We also know that the nervous systems of other animals were not artificially constructed--as a robot might be artificially constructed--to mimic the pain behavior of humans. The nervous systems of animals evolved as our own did, and in fact the evolutionary history of human beings and other animals, especially mammals, did not diverge until the central features of our nervous systems were already in existence. A capacity to feel pain obviously enhances a species' prospects for survival, since it causes members of the species to avoid sources of injury. It is surely unreasonable to suppose that nervous systems that are virtually identical physiologically, have a common origin and a common evolutionary function, and result in similar forms of behavior in similar circumstances should actually operate in an entirely different manner on the level of subjective feelings. [?]

The overwhelming majority of scientists who have addressed themselves to this question agree. Lord Brain, one of the most eminent neurologists of our time, has said:

I personally can see no reason for conceding mind to my fellow men and denying it to animals. [?] I at least cannot doubt that the interests and activities of animals are correlated with awareness and feeling in the same way as my own, and which may be, for aught I know, just as vivid.[2]

The author of a book on pain writes:

Every particle of factual evidence supports the contention that the higher mammalian vertebrates experience pain sensations at least as acute as our own. To say that they feel less because they are lower animals is an absurdity; it can easily be shown that many of their senses are far more acute that ours--visual acuity in certain birds, hearing in most wild animals, and touch in others; these animals depend more than we do today on the sharpest possible awareness of a hostile environment. Apart from the complexity of the cerebral cortex (which does not directly perceive pain) their nervous systems are almost identical to ours and their reactions to pain remarkably similar, though lacking (so far as we know) the philosophical and moral overtones. The emotional element is all too evident, mainly in the form of fear and anger."[3]

That may well be thought enough to settle the matter; but one more objection needs to be considered. [?]

[T]here is a hazy line of philosophical thought, deriving perhaps from some doctrines associated with the influential philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, Which maintains that we cannot meaningfully attribute states of consciousness to beings without language. This position seems to me very implausible. Language may be necessary for abstract thought, at some level anyway; but states like pain are more primitive, and have nothing to do with language. [?]

Human infants and young children are unable to use language. Are we to deny that a year-old child can suffer? If not, language cannot be crucial. [?]

So to conclude: there are no good reasons, scientific or philosophical, for denying that animals feel pain. If we do not doubt that other humans feel pain we should not doubt that other animals do so too.

Animals can feel pain.




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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: JCoke]
    #3952913 - 03/22/05 11:58 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

oh, and you dont have to be an "ecoterrorist" (whatever that means) to love animals.


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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: Vvellum]
    #3952997 - 03/22/05 12:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i love animals, as i love humans, i know we are all equal.

Quote:

we are all just different manifestations of the divine.




indeed.

i TRY my god dammedest to show compassion for flies and other insects...but i fail miserably most times, especially in the winter when i cant just catch them and toss them outside(then i never fail, so really only in winter time, cuz wtf do you do? throwin em in the cold is gonna kill them slow, so may as well kill them fast..fuck lettin em crawl on me in my sleep(fear.)).

yes, animals feel pain. why does my cat scream when i step on its tail on accident? cuz that shit hurts.


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Re: ecoterrorist and why they love animals so much? [Re: Vvellum]
    #3953000 - 03/22/05 12:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

love for animals is not compassion for me.

love for animals is love for our ancestors. (does anyone deny we evolved from other animals?)

love for animals is love for life itself, for its multiplicity of color, shape and beauty.

love for animals is understanding the divine nature of life. killing and eating an animal becomes a gesture full of meaning. allowing the animal we eat a dignified life dignifies our lives as well. an animal allowed to live with dignity will be an healthier animal. and if we eat healthier food, we'll be healthier ourselves.


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