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OfflineGomp
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Free will!
    #3941440 - 03/19/05 09:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

it is not possible to be right nor wrong, before a choice is made..

so in choosing, we loose our freedom of choice.. :P


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Edited by Gomp (03/19/05 09:39 PM)


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Free will! [Re: Gomp]
    #3941451 - 03/19/05 09:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

exactly- however this requires a linear time view

if you follow time as me- everything is now and future+past are purely mental ( not a perfect view, but better than a linear one ), free will exists


but is it only semantics? hmm....


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Free will! [Re: vampirism]
    #3941540 - 03/19/05 09:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Free will! Doesn't exist... social contract eliminates our delegation of choice... it may seem as if we have freedom but ultimately it is just another cookie-cutter template of our own choosing...

Free will in the greatest sense will only exist in a state reminescint of anachonism... even then any form of an established group/collective (society) will overrule it in it's raw form.

One can't have free will even to suggest anything they would like to type... even free speech is limited... I can say many things that could get me banned here... I could alternatively say things which suggest anything to the degree of anything else against a state/country, whereby my free will shall be eliminated upon the expression thereof. Free will to the ability to do practically anything I suppose... but all has its consequences :shrug: thereby eliminating my free will to not be bound by my free will of expression of an action/opinion.

We need limitations anyhow to a degree. Dunno if that made much sense :tongue:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Free will! [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3941548 - 03/19/05 09:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Free will! Doesn't exist... social contract eliminates our delegation of choice... it may seem as if we have freedom but ultimately it is just another cookie-cutter template of our own choosing...

Free will in the greatest sense will only exist in a state reminescint of anachonism... even then any form of an established group/collective (society) will overrule it in it's raw form.

One can't have free will even to suggest anything they would like to type... even free speech is limited... I can say many things that could get me banned here... I could alternatively say things which suggest anything to the degree of anything else against a state/country, whereby my free will shall be eliminated upon the expression thereof. Free will to the ability to do practically anything I suppose... but all has its consequences :shrug: thereby eliminating my free will to not be bound by my free will of expression of an action/opinion.

We need limitations anyhow to a degree. Dunno if that made much sense :tongue:




this is free will talking.. manifested..

:confused: :thumbup:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Free will! [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3941556 - 03/19/05 09:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Society doesn't stop you from going to the can now, or holding it until your show is over.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Free will! [Re: Gomp]
    #3941563 - 03/19/05 09:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
Free will! Doesn't exist... social contract eliminates our delegation of choice... it may seem as if we have freedom but ultimately it is just another cookie-cutter template of our own choosing...

Free will in the greatest sense will only exist in a state reminescint of anachonism... even then any form of an established group/collective (society) will overrule it in it's raw form.

One can't have free will even to suggest anything they would like to type... even free speech is limited... I can say many things that could get me banned here... I could alternatively say things which suggest anything to the degree of anything else against a state/country, whereby my free will shall be eliminated upon the expression thereof. Free will to the ability to do practically anything I suppose... but all has its consequences :shrug: thereby eliminating my free will to not be bound by my free will of expression of an action/opinion.

We need limitations anyhow to a degree. Dunno if that made much sense :tongue:




this is free will talking.. manifested..

:confused: :thumbup:




Nope, I limited my free will in regards to what I was generalizing... to not be bound by the consequences of it :tongue: ... I suppose my main point is that you're free to do whatever the fuck you please, provided your fine dealing with the consequences... which ultimately eliminates the "free" aspect as you'll pay for it.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Free will! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3941569 - 03/19/05 09:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Society doesn't stop you from going to the can now, or holding it until your show is over.




but doing either, would take away your free will?

will that was free? bound by the action?

free to be re invested?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Free will! [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3941572 - 03/19/05 09:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

But still, you have limited it, it has not been limited by itself


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Free will! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3941576 - 03/19/05 09:46 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The concequences provide that limitation... Thereby a force, (re: external) is taking your free will by not giving you free consequence in terms of the occurence... rather a concequence is imposed.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Free will! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3941592 - 03/19/05 09:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
But still, you have limited it, it has not been limited by itself




exactly!  :grin: :thumbup:

:sun:


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Free will! [Re: Gomp]
    #3941602 - 03/19/05 09:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It is in the frame of your mind....

How many favorable stories have you heard regarding dropping the soap?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGomp
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Re: Free will! [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3941610 - 03/19/05 10:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

yes, Exactly!

It is in the frame of your mind.


"the 'picture' of the 'artist'"
-Unknonw :P


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Edited by Gomp (03/19/05 10:08 PM)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Free will! [Re: Gomp]
    #3941618 - 03/19/05 10:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

:tongue:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Free will! [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3941632 - 03/19/05 10:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)



You have freedom to choose consequences good or bad or neutral.

You have the freedom to choose how you respond/react to those consequences.

You have the freedom to choose the value you place upon the consequences.

Any consequences you choose may and can be held against you by yourself in your own court of judgment.

These are your Divine Miranda rights!

Free will rules!

Anyone ready to play break the laws of cause and effect?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Free will! [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3941638 - 03/19/05 10:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

what laws? :P


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Free will! [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3941659 - 03/19/05 10:20 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

But it is you who set your agenta against these consequences...

In general, in society, it is you who set your agenda to be "success" in society. So you act on your own force.

If you want a new car, you have limited yourself in a lot of ways.

In the begining, you say to yourself: I want this, this and this in life. By that you have set a whole bunch of forces pushing you form all sides.

One man can control the other by force, only if that man has himself hostage with his own conditions.

You take away your own free will by setting conditions on wich you will be happy.

An example: Millions of people think they can't live without a car, so If you took away their cars, they would feel like you have violated their free will. By wanting a car, they have reduced their own free will.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Free will! [Re: Gomp]
    #3941683 - 03/19/05 10:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, didn't you and I talk about this one? What did we come up with so far? I forget.

I really want to explore this one but I need others to bounce off of who are intrigued with the idea of mastering the law of cause and effect we seem to be bound by.

I think we already do it and just haven't identified it so we haven't studied how it works.

I think cause and effect is more flexible then we give it credit for being.

Cause and effect is a linear happening. If you have experienced consciousness in simultaneous time and hold the theory that it is beyond the physical senses then effects can come before causes and causes can come without effects and effects can come without causes.

Or, you can launch a cause from one dimension of consciousness and experience the effect in another where the light is bent differently so your perception of it will be different as opposed to a linear one.

Ever proverbially slap someone in the face and have them thank you for it?

Ever do someone a good deed and be slapped in the face for it?

See what I'm saying? Somethings up here and I want in on it.

However its done, it's got to require multi dimensional play.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Free will! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3941697 - 03/19/05 10:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
But it is you who set your agenda against these consequences...

In general, in society, it is you who set your agenda to be "success" in society. So you act on your own force.

If you want a new car, you have limited yourself in a lot of ways.

In the beginning, you say to yourself: I want this, this and this in life. By that you have set a whole bunch of forces pushing you form all sides.

One man can control the other by force, only if that man has himself hostage with his own conditions.

You take away your own free will by setting conditions on which you will be happy.

An example: Millions of people think they can't live without a car, so If you took away their cars, they would feel like you have violated their free will. By wanting a car, they have reduced their own free will.




That's what I said in the Divine Miranda rights. One covered that you are free to choose your own conditions and the other was that you may and can hold them against yourself by yourself in your own court of judgment.

Anyway, your forces talk intrigues me. Lets play with that for reshaping the law of cause and effect to always work in our favor.

When you spoke of forces being applied by the external, what were you seeing, energetically speaking?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Free will! [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3941761 - 03/19/05 11:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think it was psychoactive who spoke of external forces...

I think that every force is internal, even a bullet flying towards you is only a force if it is a force in your mind.
But even though we toss ourselfs around in life with out conditions, I think that does not diminish the responsibility of those who hurt us, because they are taking advantage of our own weaknesses and attachments.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Free will! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3941804 - 03/19/05 11:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

But our mental and emotional weaknesses and attachments are of our own free choosing.

Mind you, all the play I am referring to is on an energetic level.

So if you choose to have weaknesses and attachments someone can take advantage of to hurt you then you also choose the condition of vulnerability and the linear probable cause in the least is living with a threat opposed to it. You also choose what value constitutes harm to you. You also choose the values of your vulnerability.

What if you place the value on it as being a giving virtue? Its impossible then for someone to take from you isn't it?


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