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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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DEA and hallucinogens
    #3941307 - 03/19/05 08:32 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

From the DEA website, I notice a common idea in the mescaline, LSD and tryptamine information pages. I am wondering what you all think about this. For example, on the LSD page it says: "Because of its structural similarity to a chemical present in the brain and its similarity in effects to certain aspects of psychosis, LSD was used as a research tool to study mental illness."

And for mescaline: "While peyote produced rich visual hallucinations that were important to the native peyote cults, the full spectrum of effects served as a chemically induced model of mental illness."

So they were studying hallucinogens to get "a really good model" of mental illness? From what I understand they studied these chemicals a long time. Seems kind of a weak story imo.


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Offlineajna
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3941354 - 03/19/05 08:42 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

i actually don't agree that it's a weak conclusion. there's been times where i'm over analysing my mental state to a point at which i feel that i am actually experiencing what a mentally ill person would deal with on a regular basis. things such as thought loops and inner voices for example.

but that's jst my 2 cents :smile:


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what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: ajna]
    #3941396 - 03/19/05 08:53 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Well being that I'm not mentally ill (not clinically anyway), I can't say if these drugs really induce something similar to mental illness. So I guess you're saying some aspects of the trip are similar to being crazy? I guess I would agree with that...


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Offlineajna
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3941458 - 03/19/05 09:07 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

some aspects of the trip itself are similar i think, and if i'd been caught in thought loops or hearing voices 'naturally' (by mean of mental disturbance) without being able to distinguish why or where these things were coming from (eg lsd, mushrooms) i could see that i would find the experience as disturbing as some mental patients seem to. being 'sane' and able to look at this state of mind objectively rather than being stuck in it endlessly does give me what i think is a fairly accurate depiction of 'insanity', where as the mentally ill can't step out of it and are forced into a child-like nature as their world is full of things they can't deal with.


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what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/


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OfflineDadeMurphy
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3941485 - 03/19/05 09:13 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

Yeah this is true, alot of the early research done on hallucinogens viewed them as "psychotomimetics", drugs that mimic madness. That is actually one of the original uses that sandoz intended for lsd.

From an outside point of view, the changes in cognition and behaviour that could be observed in a person who was tripping might have looked to be signs of madness. When psychedelics were taken in the context of studying madness, and the subject was surrounded by psych doctors taking notes, they would report that they felt as though they were going mad. Set and setting is everything you know...anyways for the same reason, getting consistent results from these experiments proved difficult. This style of research declined in popularity when the true character of the hallucinogens became clearer.
Psychiatry/psychology examined these drugs as treatments for mental illness, criminality, and alcoholism as well. Also as tools to facilitate easier exploration of the psyche, or in massive psychedelic doses to allow "reprogramming" of the mind.
The CIA tried using the drugs as truth agents, mind control agents, chemical weapons and political weapons.

Check out Storming Heaven by Jay Stevens for some history on LSD's early days.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: DadeMurphy]
    #3941750 - 03/19/05 11:03 PM (12 years, 9 days ago)

I'll definately take a look if its in the local library. Probably not there, but worth a look.

But I think testing hallucinogens to find out about mental illness is like testing MJ to find out about hunger and appetite.


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Offlineempnero
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3942562 - 03/20/05 03:22 AM (12 years, 9 days ago)

the mental illness thing is very true. a friend of mine had a chemical imbalance that was not drug related and causes intances of psychotic episodes when hes on taking his meds. he had done drugs previously with no adverse effects on the illness, not even surfacing it. according to the doctors it was due either way and the drugs had no impact (wow, a practicing doctor actually honest on this topic). he said it was very similar to tripping and described it as watchign the matrix while tripping, and thinking youre in it. ive also read this when looking at some of those decalssified CIA project notes (MKULTRA, its later varients, general clandestine operative notes, and research they did through hospitals, jails, unwilling participants, institutions ect.). they drew the same conclusion and said LSD was a very powerful tool for studying mental illness.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: empnero]
    #3943272 - 03/20/05 10:33 AM (12 years, 9 days ago)

This idea of hallucinogens as "psychotomimetics" is still used to justify reasearch today. It would be nearly impossible to obtain federal funding for the study of hallucinogens for use recreationally.

Early studies found that when given to schizophrenics/mentally ill people, their symptoms worsened upon administration of hallucinogens. Also the development of "atypical" antipsychotics was aided through hallucinogen research.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinefazdazzle
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: badchad]
    #3944829 - 03/20/05 05:35 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

If tripping and mental illnesses have that much in common, I'm surprised that scientists have not hardly made any headway in treating metal illnesses. Couldn't they just look at what was released after the sites that active ingredients from psychoactives activate, and block them? or maybe try and block those receptor sites? (not completely, of course, but enough to retard the illness). Just some thoughts.



Edited by fazdazzle (10/25/09 02:34 PM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: fazdazzle]
    #3944839 - 03/20/05 05:38 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Unfortunately, it's not that straightforward. The current theories of biological sources of mental illnesses involve various neurotransmitter systems, including dopamine and serotonin, both of which are vital for life. They are making good progress, but these things take time.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: fazdazzle]
    #3946006 - 03/20/05 09:35 PM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

fazdazzle said:
If tripping and mental illnesses have that much in common, I'm surprised that scientists have not hardly made any headway in treating metal illnesses. Couldn't they just look at what was released after the sites that active ingredients from psychoactives activate, and block them? or maybe try and block those receptor sites? (not completely, of course, but enough to retard the illness). Just some thoughts.

Brad




While straightforward, that hypothesis is still being tested (and seems to have partially failed).

The theory of 5-HT2 receptor agonism being central to the effects of LSD and other hallucinogens is well supported. However, a very selective 5-HT2 antagonist (M100907 produced by aventis) has produced less than optimal results in its phase III clinical trials.
http://www.geocities.com/kd3qc/medsinpipeline.html

As dblaney said, mental illness is an extremely complex disorder. Searching for a treatment takes tremendous time and effort.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: DadeMurphy]
    #3947104 - 03/21/05 02:27 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

DadeMurphy said:
Yeah this is true, alot of the early research done on hallucinogens viewed them as "psychotomimetics", drugs that mimic madness. That is actually one of the original uses that sandoz intended for lsd.

From an outside point of view, the changes in cognition and behaviour that could be observed in a person who was tripping might have looked to be signs of madness. When psychedelics were taken in the context of studying madness, and the subject was surrounded by psych doctors taking notes, they would report that they felt as though they were going mad. Set and setting is everything you know...anyways for the same reason, getting consistent results from these experiments proved difficult. This style of research declined in popularity when the true character of the hallucinogens became clearer.
Psychiatry/psychology examined these drugs as treatments for mental illness, criminality, and alcoholism as well. Also as tools to facilitate easier exploration of the psyche, or in massive psychedelic doses to allow "reprogramming" of the mind.
The CIA tried using the drugs as truth agents, mind control agents, chemical weapons and political weapons.

Check out Storming Heaven by Jay Stevens for some history on LSD's early days.




You beat me to it. Great book.

As has been pointed out, it didn't take researchers all that long to realize that psychedelics were not 'psychomimetic'. Patients thought they were going psychotic because the doctors TOLD THEM they were going psychotic. They gave some to actual schizophrenics who told researchers it was totally different. The government likes to harp on the most old and antiquated research to make the drugs look bad.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineGrizzy
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3947289 - 03/21/05 03:37 AM (12 years, 8 days ago)

Ok, didn't we all used to call acid "temporary insanity" back in those good ol days? Were my friends and I the only ones?

TEMPORARY INSANITY? Anyone?


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"You already know everything, it's just a matter of time before you remember..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: Grizzy]
    #3967267 - 03/25/05 01:37 AM (12 years, 4 days ago)

Mescaline isn't temporary insanity and it's a 'hallucinogen'


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlineingo_2001
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3967952 - 03/25/05 11:01 AM (12 years, 4 days ago)

I think the canaboid, opiate and kappa receptors have a lot to do with mental illness as well as serotonin, dopamine and adrenaline.

You would need to take a whole bunch of drugs to mimic a certain illness, which would be incredibly difficult.

However I think psychedlics do reproduce a very small aspect of certain mental illnesses along with other effects which are completely different to any mental illness.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #3969716 - 03/25/05 07:24 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

It's the DEA....they are always full of shit. Psychedelics were tested as means of inducing a psychotic state...but they rare induce true psychotic states. PCP and deliriants such as Datura provide a much better model of psychosis.


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OfflineCosmicFunGuy
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Re: DEA and hallucinogens [Re: Dark_Star]
    #5757467 - 06/16/06 03:57 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Read 'Acid Dreams' by Martin A. Lee & Bruce Shlain. It will shed a lot of light on the use of psychedelic drugs on mental patients to help them and to produce mental illness like effects in healthy people. It covers the complete social history of LSD. It's a very amazing book covers the discovery of LSD, through the CIAs uses for LSD, through LSD on the streets and in the labs. It also covers many other psychedelic drugs, though the booked is based mostly on LSD.


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♫ ♪ In the garden of many fields, there is no me or you. There is no right or wrong. There is no up or down. There is no black or white. Everyone is the plow man. Everyone is the seed. Everyone harvests and everyone yields. In the garden of many fields, everyone is one with one love and one love is one with everyone. ♪ ♫
lyrics from: Transglobal Underground - Eyeway Souljah (from Psychic Karaoke)


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