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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes
    #3939121 - 03/19/05 09:59 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

One of Terence McKenna's principles for explaining human relationship to mushrooms and how mushrooms are the primary tool for our evolution is that we used to take them while we were apes. And each tribe of wandering apes had "full moon orgies", and everyone took care of everyone elses children and there was less agression and no dominance hierarchy and we all held hands and we all loved each other and the fall of man came about when we stopped taking mushrooms.

Well it's a nice thought and it neatly ties up a lot of hanging questions but it's pretty far out for me to accept just cause he says so. Can anyone point me towards any reputable sources that he bases his theory on?


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3940125 - 03/19/05 03:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Check the bibliography of his Food of the Gods book.


McKennaDMT


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #3940179 - 03/19/05 03:48 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that it's a little far fetched. But it makes a lot of sense.

I mean, their's tons of animals around the world that eat entheogens. Mushrooms (and all entheogens for that matter) no doubt have had a powerful effect on our cultural developement. But it's really a matter of how early we started taking them and if that did indeed expand our imagination, turning us into what we are today.

It seems quite reasonable that there were a few early humans that found mushrooms growing out of the grazing beasts of the african grassland and ate them. Discovering the amazing effects they might have domesticated the animals not only for a source of food, but for their magical poop. These culturally advanced human became nomadic, searching for food for their herds, and headed into Mesopotamia and eventually developed into the first cities, and large societies.

I don't know whether this is true, but it makes sense, and wouldn't suprise me in the least.

There's an interesting thought on a similar idea that I had recently involving industrial meat production. Isn't it strange that if it wasn't for those cows that we've been raising in fenced pastures and slaughtering for our own hunger for flesh and blood, the mushroom wouldn't have spread as far across the globe like it has. Thus, the blood of the innocent cattle, sheep (lamb of god, sacrifices to god) are the source of the healing magic of the mushroom (salavation, redemption, spiritual death/rebirt, etc).

So put that in your theological pipe and smoke it! ...j/k!


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: dr0mni]
    #3940194 - 03/19/05 03:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well it's an interesting idea, but I mean I've never heard anyone else with any sort of scientific credentials back it up. Hell, I took a semester of anthropology in college and they didn't mention mushrooms once.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3940203 - 03/19/05 03:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That book was pure speculation.


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: egghead1]
    #3940211 - 03/19/05 04:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I get that feeling about an awful lot of what McKenna says. He's a smart guy, no doubt, he just doesn't lay enough foundation based on undisputed fact for my taste.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3940268 - 03/19/05 04:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There is no foundation for his speculation. He has taken a lot of ideas and intelligently interwoven them together to create the illusion of authenticity.


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OfflineDroz
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: egghead1]
    #3940270 - 03/19/05 04:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'm pretty sure Terence Mckenna was accurate in all the drugs that he told us about in his book Food of the Gods.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: Droz]
    #3940296 - 03/19/05 04:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What makes you so sure of his accuracy? Isn't it possible that he made most of it up? If you conduct some research into the subjects he covers, you may discover quite alot of wild assumptions, historical discrepancies and blatant misinformation.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (03/19/05 04:44 PM)


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: egghead1]
    #3940335 - 03/19/05 04:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

egghead I like you.  you got an avatar like you're another ditzy hindu new age foofoo hound, but your posts are more cynical than swami.
:thumbup:


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3940345 - 03/19/05 04:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks man. i just like to keep it real as well as spreading the love  :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3940757 - 03/19/05 06:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I took a semester of anthropology in college and they didn't mention mushrooms once.





Are you really surprised by this?  In a society that lumps psilocybin in the same vein as heroin.  Come on now.


McKennaDMT  :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3941107 - 03/19/05 07:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

McKenna was a creativwe writer, but he was also an entertainer. Many of his ideas were so far fetched as to be ridiculously funny.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3942348 - 03/20/05 01:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

well I think we can all agree that there were probably lots of early tribes that tripped. The only dispute is over the significance of their use and it's "impact on our evolution".

It's like freud. He took things a little far with some of his theroies, but he completely was on the right path with his foundations (like ego, subconscious, blah, blah, blah...).
I wouldn't blow McKenna's ideas off completely, but I will take them with a grain of salt (or is it sand? I don't know idioms).


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: dr0mni]
    #3942383 - 03/20/05 02:08 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"I think we can all agree that there were probably lots of early tribes that tripped"
Yes, but to talk about monkey-tripping is funny...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3942589 - 03/20/05 03:44 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well, his ideas are not too far fetched.

When looking at our early prehistory, we were generaly Hunters and Gathers. Most hunter gather societys live this sort of way. The !Kung, the Inuit they all take care of each other. I don't have time to explain this tonight, but look into anthropolgy in general. His theorys for the whole were speculation, however, they are not far fetched. Many more primitive societies today use Pyschdealics. DMT, Ibogane(sp), Amanita muscarias, psiolcybin, et al. If it was a natural occuring in nature it was probably used. Datura for example, horrible trip, but it was still ate.

I plan on expanding on my theorys tomorrow, however, now I must sleep I need to wake up in like 5 hrs for work.

Also, someone look up Jon Allegro(sp). The book he wrote from his work deciphring the dead sea scrolls suggested early christians were descendants from a mushroom cult. Well the catholic church has since bought the publishing company of the publishers of his book and vowed that his book never be print again. ... meh more to come, i need sleep.


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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3942899 - 03/20/05 08:08 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think some part of Mckenna's rap was a sort of insanity plea.

Just a thought. :smirk:


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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: dr0mni]
    #3943771 - 03/20/05 01:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:

It's like freud. He took things a little far with some of his theroies, but he completely was on the right path with his foundations (like ego, subconscious, blah, blah, blah...).
I wouldn't blow McKenna's ideas off completely, but I will take them with a grain of salt (or is it sand? I don't know idioms).




No he wasn't at all. Everything he theorized is discredited distractionist garbage that set back the study of psychology by decades and harmed a tremendous number of the mentally ill. There are very few dinosaurs left still spouting the psychoanalytic model. And if McKenna is asserting that pre Homo sapiens hominids were ingesting hallucinogenic mushrooms by anything other than accident I would sure like to see some evidence. He probably had a vision from his mitochondrial RNA. Please.


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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3949021 - 03/21/05 03:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No he wasn't at all. Everything he theorized is discredited distractionist garbage that set back the study of psychology by decades and harmed a tremendous number of the mentally ill. There are very few dinosaurs left still spouting the psychoanalytic model.




Of course, the theories are how many decades old? You don't see many physicists referring to early conceptions of atomic structure, but without those early models, where would we be now?

I think that all psychologists agree about the subconscious/repressed memory thing. But just because psychoanalytical therapy is crap doesn't mean that everything else he thought of is too.

First we have to put theories out there, then they are tested. In the end, you may not have the same theory you started with, but it's more accurate and is based off of the old theory (or is completely debunked).


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Re: cohesive mushroom taking ape tribes [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3950425 - 03/21/05 08:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Catal Hayak

Tassilli

Tadrart

Acacus

Ennedi

Jebel Uweinat

"One of the most important scenes is to be found in the Tin-Tazarift rock art site, at Tassili, in which we find a series of masked figures in line and hieratically dressed or dressed as dancers surrounded by long and lively festoons of geometrical designs of different kinds. Each dancer holds a mushroom-like object in the right hand and, even more surprising, two parallel lines come out of this object to reach the central part of the head of the dancer, the area of the roots of the two horns. This double line could signify an indirect association or non-material fluid passing from the object held in the right hand and the mind. This interpretation would coincide with the mushroom interpretation if we bear in mind the universal mental value induced by hallucinogenic mushrooms and vegetals, which is often of a mystical and spiritual nature"

"the more or less anthropomorphous figures with mushroom.shaped heads are to be found repeatedly in Round Head art, some with hat-heads of unboned or papillate form which on two occasions are of a bluish color while others carry a leaf or a small branch. The occurrence of various data suggests the presence of a very ancient hallucinogenic mushroom cult with a complex differentiation between botanical species and related mythological representations. Indeed it would be remarkable to find out that, as part of the culture of the late Stone Age which 7,000 to 9,000 years ago produced Round Heads rock art, we were in the presence of the oldest human culture yet discovered in which explicit representations of the ritual use of psychotropic mushrooms are to be found. Therefore, as the founders of modern ethno-mycology had already put forward - and this is especially true of Wasson (1986) - this Saharian testimony would demonstrate that the use of hallucinogens originates in the Paleolithic period and is invariably include within mystico-religious contexts and rituals"

"It could be a scene of adoration in which the three figures would represent divinities or mythological figures. The two anthropomorphous figures have large horns while the upper portion of the third figure, behind them, is shaped like a large mushroom. If the scene is indeed a scene of adoration, it is an important testimonial as to Round Heads mystico-religious beliefs. This scene would thus be the representation of a Holy Trinity illustrated by a precise iconography. It is worth bearing in mind the fact that the upper part of one of the three figures in the adoration scene is mushroom-shaped."

"Evolution in higher animals takes a long time to occur, operating in time spans of rarely less than a million years and more often in tens of millions of years. But the emergence of modern humans from the higher primates-with the enormous changes effected in brain size and behavior-transpired in fewer than three million years. Physically, in the last 100,000 years, we have apparently changed very little. But the amazing proliferation of cultures, social institutions, and linguistic systems has come so quickly that modern evolutionary biologists can scarcely account for it. Most do not even attempt an explanation."

McKenna's theory was about the development of culture and language in the near term and reaches out to the precursor, the proto-hominid brain; and he traces a continuing cultural jump-start homo sapiens got in the paleolithic when nomadic herding made man, beast and mushroom the best of friends.

"Both baboons and chimpanzees hunt cooperatively and prey on small animals. They do not generally use tools in hunting, however, and there is no evidence that early hominids did either. Among chimps, baboons, and hominids, hunting appears to be a male activity. Early hominids hunted both cooperatively and alone. With Homo habilis began a sudden and mysterious expansion of brain size. Homo habilis's brain weighed an average 770 grams (27. 5 ounces), compared with 530 grams (19 ounces) for competing hominids. The next two and a quarter million years brought an unusually rapid evolution in brain size and complexity. By 750,000 to 1.1 million years ago a new hominid type, Homo erectus, was widespread. The brain size of this new hominid was 900 to 1100 grams (2 to 2.4 pounds). Evidence is good that Homo erectus used tools and possessed some sort of rudimentary culture. At Choukoutien Cave in South Africa, there is good evidence of fire use along with burnt bones indicating the cooking of meat. These are attributed to Homo erectus, which was the earliest hominid to leave Africa, a million or so years ago. Older theories suggested that modern humans evolved from Homo erectus in different locales. Increasingly, however, modern evolutionary primatologists accept the notion that modern Homo sapiens also arose in Africa, some 100,000 years ago, and made a second great outward migration from there to people the entire planet. At Border Cave and the Klasies River Mouth Cave in South Africa, there is evidence of the earliest modern Homo sapiens living in a mixed forest and grassland environment."

The missing link may have been the acceleration of cultural evolution and the growth of the neocortex through the process of proto-hominids discovering the mushroom as they ventured from the forest. Of course the venturing onto the plains is a common evolutionary tale, but the massive growth in brain size, cultural complexity and language that characterise this mad dash are unexplainable in traditional evolutionary theory without the "missing link" line.

Apes do get stoned on various substances and this has been documented in modern times, they even have a medical knowledge of plants. Apes did come out of the trees and become homo sapiens inexplicably fast, plus some of the earliest cultures represent mushrooms and other psychedellics as well as bulls/horned anthropomorphic figures in their artwork and religios.

McKenna even attempts to explain how the Lamarckian argument can be silenced. I myself quite like Lamarcks ideas (as a part of a composite) since I personally feel intelligence is somewhat guiding the evolutionary process and that this intelligence could well put the man(ape) and mushroom together for higher species development. The thing is that the current paradigm is that Victorian hangover of disproving 'God' (sure the traditional Western monotheistic 'God' concept needed a blow or 6)  and proving random souless activity that coincidentally produces this vast reign of order around us.

At any rate McKenna suggests that it was the fact that proto-hominids found the consciousness expansion it gained from the mushroom extremely useful.

"The short answer to this objection, one that requires no defense of Lamarck's ideas, is that the presence of psilocybin in the hominid diet changed the parameters of the process of natural selection by changing the behavioral patterns upon which that selection was operating. Experimentation with many types of foods was causing a general increase in the numbers of random mutations being offered up to the process of natural selection, while the augmentation of visual acuity, language use, and ritual activity through the use of psilocybin represented new behaviors. One of these new behaviors, language use, previously only a marginally important trait, was suddenly very useful in the context of new hunting and gathering lifestyles. Hence psilocybin inclusion in the diet shifted the parameters of human behavior in favor of patterns of activity that promoted increased language; acquisition of language led to more vocabulary and an expanded memory capacity. The psilocybin-using individuals evolved epigenetic rules or cultural forms that enabled them to survive and reproduce better than other individuals. Eventually the more successful epigenetically based styles of behavior spread through the populations along with the genes that reinforce them. In this fashion the population would evolve genetically and culturally."

http://illuminaticonspiracy.org/files/books/FoodoftheGods.pdf

http://www.magic-mushrooms.net/religion.html

:mushroom2:


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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