Home | Community | Message Board


Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop:   Original Seeds Store Buy CBD, Cannabis Seeds, Compare CBD   Amazon ½ Pint Jars, Rye Grain, Wild Bird Seed

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Trusted Cultivator
Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate?
    #3927737 - 03/16/05 10:20 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have noticed that if a spawn bag of grain (say rye or birdseed) smells sour like rotten trash, then cubensis mycelium greatly slows down or stops entirely. On the other hand, if straw or manure develops this smell during a spawn run, which is typical if I accidentally sterilize rather than pasteurize the bulk substrate, then the mycelium will often complete colonization without trouble. This is especially true of manure which seems to colonize no mater what it smells like. Why is this true? Is it just a mater of nutrient density and hence bacterial density that makes the difference? But isn't manure pretty dense in terms of nutrients?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMrMaddHatter
Dementia praecox
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Nowhere
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3928643 - 03/17/05 01:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

My GUESS would be the nutrient density as you stated. I don't think straw or manure have as much nutrients per square whatever as grain does.

Who knows. Maybe it has something to do with it being pasteurized instead of sterlized.

Pretty difficult question.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3928778 - 03/17/05 02:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have spawned sterilized manure before, and while the smell gets a lot worse during colonization, the mycelium still manages to colonize just the same. I know the question as to why this can work is difficult which is why I am posting on the advanced forum.

There is much study concerning bacteria-fungal symbiosis, but I don't know much about it. I wonder if cubensis, which grows on manure in the wild, has particularly good antibiotics to control bacteria that flourishes is manure whereas it doesn't for the plethora of bacteria that is supported by grain. I mean just because substrates smell the same doesn't mean they are really housing the same critters, right?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMrMaddHatter
Dementia praecox
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Nowhere
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3928792 - 03/17/05 02:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
There is much study concerning bacteria-fungal symbiosis, but I don't know much about it.


 

I would love to see some links or references to this, as I know nothing, or have heard anything about it.

Quote:

I wonder if cubensis, which grows on manure in the wild, has particularly good antibiotics to control bacteria that flourishes in manure whereas it doesn't for the plethora of bacteria that is supported by grain.




This sounds reasonable, but you'll need some straight up PRO's to answer these kind of questions. Maybe there should be a Pro. Advan. Cult. Forum. :tongue:

Sorry. 7 years in and I still don't even know half of it all :grin:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAeolus1369
Dr. Seahorse
Male

Registered: 05/20/02
Posts: 367
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3929936 - 03/17/05 12:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
I wonder if cubensis, which grows on manure in the wild, has particularly good antibiotics to control bacteria that flourishes is manure whereas it doesn't for the plethora of bacteria that is supported by grain.




Is it a proven fact that mushrooms really do secrete anti-microbial antibiotics?  If so I imagine some of them or their derivatives are perhaps in clinical use such as the wide variety derived from products produced by the actinomycetes genus of bacteria.

The reason I ask is that the production of antibiotics is kinda a mystery in microbiology still.  Of course it was long thought that they were there to inhibit competing bacteria, but it's been proven that in the soil where most of these species live, the antibiotic concentrations never get high enough to be inhibitory and so their function is still not clearly understood.

This is just what I remember from a microbiology class I took some time ago.  I haven't done so much research on this matter myself so don't crucify me if it's not 100% correct  :tongue:  I would appreciate any references to antibiotics produced by fungi though.

  --Aeolus


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #3930106 - 03/17/05 01:10 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm fairly sure they produce some sort of antibotic themselves...just based on some stuff I've seen. I have no proof or papers or anything, I'd be interested to see more on the subject myself...its just that colonized substrate will defend quite well against mold. Mold and mycelium left iin a jar (once all substrate is fully colonized by something) will usually just keep to themselves, and neither eats the other..at least not for a little while. I've also read about alot of organisims producing H202 (or something like it) in small amounts. I believe that was read on h2o2.com or h2o24u.com or one of those h202somthing.com sites. I didnt read or research much into it..I never really cared much..

I'd think that poo's natural bacterias, aid the mycelium growth..perhaps you arent getting bad bacteria, just bacteria. I dont know though, again something I dont know much about. You did say it usually happens when you PC it though, so everything in there should be dead Id think. Maybe not though. Either way, bulk, starts off containing lots of bacteria and organisims that help things along that grain doesnt...I would think this has something to do with it.

Also, poo/compost, per pound, is said to have less nutes then whole grains. So your theory on nutrient density may have an impact...or just density of overall substrate..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDem_Bones
Strangler
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/12/05
Posts: 307
Loc: District of Columbia
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3933745 - 03/18/05 04:01 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

it is the food in the grain and lack of fresh air, as far as i know its not the bacteria that kill he mycelia but rather the waste (the piss and co2) the high amount of protein in the germ of the grain makes nitrogen wast ,and the abundance of food lets the Bactria grow out of control,and become anaerobic the Bactria can live with out oxygen and quickly use it up in the bag, when it does grow with out oxygen its waste is way more toxic , some fungus can like with out oxygen like yeast but not micilla

as far as i know most all fungus make antibacterial agents you may have heard of some of the more well known ones like penicillin and ampicillin
penicillin is the name of the green mold seen ofton growning on the peel of an orange
The History of Penicillin
antibiotic info list history and types coming from fungus bactera and man made


--------------------
CLICK THIS Ultimate Myco Directory v5.0
At the bottom of this page is a search bar to search all the post and threads on the forum so you can see all the other 500 people who asked the same thing.use the top search too it has shroomery approved FAQs USE IT YOU CAN DO IT !


Edited by Dem_Bones (03/18/05 04:16 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: Aeolus1369]
    #3938437 - 03/19/05 02:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I had not heard before that these antibiotic secretions where not in concentrations high enough to be of bacterial inhibitory benefit to the fungi. If this is true, then the antibiotics are a real mystery. I think I'll try to find some material about that.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Why does bacteria stop a spawn bag but not a bulk substrate? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3938487 - 03/19/05 02:55 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think much anything is really sterile for long. By ?sterilization? I think we don?t so much sterilize usually as knock the bacterial load down to a very low level such that the mycelium gets the upper hand and colonizes first. In the case of a rye grain bag, there is additional benefit in that the outside of the grain is relatively dry and thus does not serve as a good path for bacteria whereas the mycelium can span the gap between grains easily. If you make that grain a little too wet, though, it crashes almost every time with a bacterial bloom since you open a highway between the grains for bacteria.

What I?ve noticed about manure is that if you do sterilize it, it tends to stink real bad before it colonizes, but if you just pasteurize it, it doesn?t smell bad at all. I am guessing that by destroying the equilibrium of bacteria in the manure, I allow an unusually high bloom of bacteria. Interestingly despite the stink, which I assume is indicative of a bacterial explosion, the mycelium colonizes without any trouble. Like I said before, it just seems that manure will colonize well no matter what it smells like.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Shop:   Original Seeds Store Buy CBD, Cannabis Seeds, Compare CBD   Amazon ½ Pint Jars, Rye Grain, Wild Bird Seed

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Homemade spawn bags and Cheap sealer
( 1 2 all )
blahblahblah 8,004 22 01/20/03 04:46 PM
by Raadt
* Worm castings as bulk substrate? Anyone have exp? Pugslee_Atoms420 4,943 19 08/28/10 12:51 AM
by RogerRabbit
* Bulk Substrate Qusetion kid_alamo 1,527 6 06/18/02 10:27 PM
by canid
* compacting bulk substrate RedHead 1,063 4 02/23/02 11:16 PM
by Olgualion
* Fresh shroom to inoculate bulk substrate?Time till 1stflush du_Rag_scotland 1,510 10 01/30/03 08:26 AM
by Azmodeus
* Sclerotium in Spawn Bags PNutButta 839 2 10/28/03 10:04 AM
by blackout
* various containers for bulk substrates schorts 1,504 12 11/08/03 07:43 PM
by walk
* Using Spawn bags instead of Jars.
( 1 2 all )
Fluxburn 4,264 20 01/27/05 03:13 PM
by debianlinux

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: RogerRabbit
2,383 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 18 queries.