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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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the impending death of the ANWR...
    #3925148 - 03/16/05 01:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the doom of the ANWR will be sealed by the end of the day today (3/16) :thumbdown:...

but you may be surprised that this thread is *not* a rant against big oil..because even they know that theres no profit in destroying the ANWR.. theres simply not enough oil there...jim hightower ..

Quote:

"No oil company really cares about ANWR," adding that "If the government gave them the [drilling] leases for free they wouldn't take them." Indeed, Chevron Texaco, BP, and ConocoPhillips have so little interest in ANWR that they have withdrawn from Arctic Power, the chief lobbying front behind Bush's push to open the refuge.




the same link also explains why the ANWR will prolly be destroyed nonetheless ..

Quote:

What's really behind the Bushites' insistence on drilling in a wildlife refuge is nothing but their reactionary, knee-jerk laissez-faire ideology. They hate the idea that the public can protect any piece of nature from corporate intrusion ? even if the corporations don't choose to intrude. ANWR is a case of their ideological loopiness.




and i wouldnt put it past bush&co to actively subsidize the destruction of the ANWR..ie pay haliburton money to go in there and buldoze it..simply to prove a point...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3925347 - 03/16/05 02:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

thank God, I'm glad they have the drilling rights, but I severely doubt they're going to bulldoze anything just to prove a point.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3926015 - 03/16/05 04:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

it is just to prove a point...because there is at the very most an additional two year reserve of oil...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3926092 - 03/16/05 05:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think we need to start building nuclear reactors in Canada to start turning the Canadian oil sands into bubblin crude. Speaking of bubblin crude, now let me tell ya bout a man named Jed.

Come and listen to a story about a man named Jed
A poor mountaineer, barely kept his family fed,
Then one day he was shootin at some food,
And up through the ground came a bubblin crude.
Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea.

Well the first thing you know ol Jed's a millionaire,
Kinfolk said "Jed move away from there"
Said "Californy is the place you ought to be"
So they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.
Hills, that is. Swimmin pools, movie stars.

Well now its time to say good by to Jed and all his kin.
And they would like to thank you folks fer kindly droppin in.
You're all invited back a gain to this locality
To have a heapin helpin of their hospitality
Hillybilly that is. Set a spell, Take your shoes off.
Y'all come back now, y'hear?.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3927290 - 03/16/05 08:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3927870 - 03/16/05 10:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The damage to ANWR will be more than negligible, but less than what you are imagining.



99.8% of it will be fine.


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3928768 - 03/17/05 02:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

99.8% of it will be fine.




incorrect...the actual figure is 7.7% (1.5/19.5 million acres) will be up for lease...estimates of the size of the reserve average 10400 million bbl (source ..US fish & wildlife service(PDF))...at the current US rate of consumption of 20.4 million bbl/day = 7446 million bbl/yr (source ..US dept of energy)...this amounts to 16 months plus 3 weeks...

at first..it doesnt seem worth it when you compare that 16.76 months against a human life expectancy...but we dont have a whole lifetime ahead of us ..



we have 8 years...and i had foolishly failed to take the chart into account earlier...compared to that..the extra 16 months time it buys us is huge.. much more so considering that the rush to develop new energy sources would tend to be procrastinated until the very end...the fact that we only have a tenth the amount of time makes the oil reserve 10 times greater..ie 104000 million bbl...

let alone the fact that the alternative to cannibalizing that 7.7% of the ANWR is invading another country..which is hardly a lesser evil...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3928816 - 03/17/05 02:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We have pumped oil right next to Anwar for decades. The environment damage is minimal. The caribou still flock around the pipelines. Give it a rest.

This will add over 2 billion dollars in revenue a year to the region at least. The Alaskans are all for it. Too bad they didn't elect you to represent their interests. This deal is a no brainer, and another example of why the environmental left is of little or no significance in today's political reality.

This isn't going to materially harm the environment one bit. It is going to generate substantial wealth and jobs to the Alaskan and the American economy. It will also satisfy some needs of the market and at least marginally help us along the road to energy independence.

Look back for the 30-40 or so years that we have already been drilling in Alaska. Those wells are right next to Anwar. What the hell is the extent of the environmental devastation from them? You would think if this drilling was so bad they would already have the evidence from a real life case study that is decades in the making. It is all one big leftist hoax.

They don't want to drill. They don't want nuclear power. They don't like the way that wind power kills birds or the way it affects the scenery. They think that hydro power hurts the king salmon. They don't like anything. So screw them.

The last thing I want is for everyone to be forced into the bronze age because some Eco fanatics don't like capitalism and mankind.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3928831 - 03/17/05 02:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)


They don't want to drill. They don't want nuclear power. They don't like the way that wind power kills birds or the way it affects the scenery. They think that hydro power hurts the king salmon. They don't like anything.

But they do want to have all of the modern conveniences that society affords(cars, Ipod players, houses, etc...). You can't have it both ways. If we are going to live in a world of electricity and transportation, we will cause an impact upon our environment. The only way to make no impact on the environment is if we kill off 95% of humanity and the remaining people live in huts and eat grass.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3928840 - 03/17/05 03:01 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I often think that is exactly what they want.

You would think the greens would embrace nuclear power, because it is the cleanest thing going. The whole global warming thing could have actually been a brilliant PR move of the nuclear lobby. That would have been a nice touch.

They talk of sustainability, but they reject any movement in that general direction.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3929018 - 03/17/05 04:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The last thing I want is for everyone to be forced into the bronze age because some Eco fanatics don't like capitalism and mankind.




if anybody forces everyone into the bronze age..it will be those pathological right-wing nutjobs who are not merely environmental vandals..but who are also so obtuse as to conflate the interests of mankind with those of capitalism...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3929133 - 03/17/05 06:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

More oil is a solution to our problems in much the same way that more crack is a solution for someone with a crack problem.


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3929149 - 03/17/05 07:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it is just to prove a point...because there is at the very most an additional two year reserve of oil...




that all depends on who you talk with, either way it's 2 years of our own oil. :thumbup:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3929395 - 03/17/05 09:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, I do agree that this move is a political move meant to spearhead a challenge to all public lands. It is also a way to appear like the Bush administration is "becoming energy independent" - but of course this is utter nonsense.

:thumbdown:


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3930030 - 03/17/05 12:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

it is just to prove a point...because there is at the very most an additional two year reserve of oil...




that all depends on who you talk with, either way it's 2 years of our own oil. :thumbup:




With no plans for what happens after that 2 years when our own "cheap" supply runs out and we're doing the junkie shuffle all the way to the middle east. And if we thought opec has us by the short hairs now..

Basically what we need are a few things to get us out of this mess.

1) A president who isn't so completely mired and beholden to the big oil industry.

2) A huge tax on gas per gallon which will have the effect of motivating consumers to buy fuel efficient and hybrid cars and also fund an alternative fuel research project.

3) Better tax breaks to individuals who purchase hybrid/alt fuel cars as well as tax incentives for the auto-industry to start R&D and production of same.

Then instead of 2 years of automobile consumption we'll have countless years to use that oil in the more marginal industries like pharmecuticals, plastics and other general manufacturing. But none of that will happen with an almost entirely republican government and most definitely not with someone like Bush in the white house.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: unbeliever]
    #3930156 - 03/17/05 01:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

With no plans for what happens after that 2 years when our own "cheap" supply runs out and we're doing the junkie shuffle all the way to the middle east. And if we thought OPEC has us by the short hairs now..




I could be wrong but I don't recall anyone thinking that this drilling will make OPEC obsolete. With that said, so what? I don't think our energy decisions should be based off of what OPEC thinks. My hope is that one day synthetic oils (invented here) will replace what OPEC gives the world. When and if that happens I will be a very happy person.

Quote:

1) A president who isn't so completely mired and beholden to the big oil industry.




how convenient, blame Bush. There hasn't been too many presidents that made a dent in the future of our oil consumption. Bush is not at fault for our oil dependence.

Quote:

A huge tax on gas per gallon which will have the effect of motivating consumers to buy fuel efficient and hybrid cars and also fund an alternative fuel research project




I disagree, taxing fuel more than it is now will hurt only those who can barely afford it now. Why is it that liberals feel that the only way to get things to work are to make people give them money?

Quote:

Better tax breaks to individuals who purchase hybrid/alt fuel cars as well as tax incentives for the auto-industry to start R&D and production of same.




I have no problem with tax breaks, unfortunately you preceded this with taxing fuel more than it already is.

Quote:

Then instead of 2 years of automobile consumption we'll have countless years to use that oil in the more marginal industries like pharmecuticals, plastics and other general manufacturing. But none of that will happen with an almost entirely republican government and most definitely not with someone like Bush in the white house.




If the Liberals were in charge we would have no 2 year supply and deep throating OPEC. You guys really need to stop blaming everything that goes wrong on a president you hate.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3930872 - 03/17/05 04:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

With no plans for what happens after that 2 years when our own "cheap" supply runs out and we're doing the junkie shuffle all the way to the middle east. And if we thought OPEC has us by the short hairs now..




I could be wrong but I don't recall anyone thinking that this drilling will make OPEC obsolete. With that said, so what? I don't think our energy decisions should be based off of what OPEC thinks. My hope is that one day synthetic oils (invented here) will replace what OPEC gives the world. When and if that happens I will be a very happy person.





That's a great pipe dream. "Well one day maybe a miracle of modern science will save us". Whatever.

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

1) A president who isn't so completely mired and beholden to the big oil industry.




how convenient, blame Bush. There hasn't been too many presidents that made a dent in the future of our oil consumption. Bush is not at fault for our oil dependence.




None of those presidents are president right now. None of those presidents that I know of have so much personal wealth and family ties to the oil industry. You really think someone like bush who comes from oil money and who's family has regular business dealings with the saudi royal family is ever going to push for alternative fuel or any policy that would in any way hurt his buddies in the oil industry?

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

A huge tax on gas per gallon which will have the effect of motivating consumers to buy fuel efficient and hybrid cars and also fund an alternative fuel research project




I disagree, taxing fuel more than it is now will hurt only those who can barely afford it now. Why is it that liberals feel that the only way to get things to work are to make people give them money?




if it meant that 5-10 years from now we'd be paying a lot less for an alternative fuel source while also being independant of mid east oil, it'd be worth it.

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

Better tax breaks to individuals who purchase hybrid/alt fuel cars as well as tax incentives for the auto-industry to start R&D and production of same.




I have no problem with tax breaks, unfortunately you preceded this with taxing fuel more than it already is.





See above.

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

Then instead of 2 years of automobile consumption we'll have countless years to use that oil in the more marginal industries like pharmecuticals, plastics and other general manufacturing. But none of that will happen with an almost entirely republican government and most definitely not with someone like Bush in the white house.




If the Liberals were in charge we would have no 2 year supply and deep throating OPEC. You guys really need to stop blaming everything that goes wrong on a president you hate.




I don't know of a single liberal who wants us dependant on oil, OPEC or otherwise.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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Offlineshroommachine
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3930992 - 03/17/05 05:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:


You would think the greens would embrace nuclear power, because it is the cleanest thing going.
They talk of sustainability, but they reject any movement in that general direction.




Nuclear power is the most dangerous ill concieved "solution" to our problem.


--------------------
And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: shroommachine]
    #3931994 - 03/17/05 08:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How is nuclear power dangerous?

1. radiation - This only affects people moving in and out of the plant, and they get "cleaned" of radiation by some special machine once a week.
2. radioactive waste - This can be buried where it won't harm anyone or it can be broken down and reproccessed.
3. possibility of meltdown - This will never happen if you have competent people at the helm. In all our history, with dozens of nuclear power plants, there have only been two major meltdowns. But there hasn't been a major accident since 1979. This doesn't mean it won't happen again, but 20/20 hindsight is useful for preventing accidents.

"Meltdown events

A number of Russian nuclear submarines have experienced nuclear meltdowns. The only known large scale nuclear meltdown at a civilian nuclear power plant was at Chernobyl, Ukraine, in 1986, although there have been several partial core meltdowns, including accidents at:

* NRX, Ontario, Canada, in 1952
* EBR-1, Idaho, in 1955
* Windscale, Sellafield, England, in 1957.
* Fermi Nuclear Power Plant, Michigan, in 1966.
* Three Mile Island, Pennsylvania in 1979."

A meltdown happens when the nuclear core destablizes and melts through the floor and foundation into the ground. Once it makes contact with ground water it is pushed rapidly into the atmosphere in vaprous or gaseous form (fallout).

Nuclear power is the future of power generation. It is by far the most efficient and advanced source of power we have harnessed. There is no way we can rule out its usefullness as a fuel source and hope to progress (very far) as a species.


--------------------


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: the impending death of the ANWR... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3932217 - 03/17/05 09:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Im surprised no one has pointed out where Canada is getting all of its oil from. I would think the Alaskan drilling controversy would put the spot-light on why Canada holds the 2nd largest oil reserves next to Saudi Arabia. Where do you think they get that oil? They get it from the same wilderness areas. Canada is hardly right-wing so your "conservative eco-terrorist" argument holds no weight, annapurna.


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