psyka said:

Rythm is the ultimate meme.

All things depend on rythm to exist. All things do not depend on Christianity to exist.

---

Tell that to a devout Christian

wjames said:

1)Not specific as to denomination, but quite specific as to orientation--namely fundamentalism.

2) That's fundamentalism.  Few, if any, Christians I know believe that every word of the Bible is literally true. 

3)See above.

4) Christianity does not condone, for example, ostracizing gay family members.  Quite the contrary! 

5) Sin, as a focus, is basically a mechanism of the Old Testament.  Christianity is found mainly in the New Testament--a "new covenant" based on love, not "The Law."  That is stated explicitly.  St. Paul addresses this and flatly says, to paraphrase him, "Christianity is not based on slavish adherence to laws and fear. It's based on freedom."

---

1) Give me a break, if you want me to pick on a denomination, suggest one and I'll tear it apart to your liking . Anything that deals with a generalized overview of something is going to get into the fundamentals... please, don't be so daft and think for a sec.


2) How many Christians do you know? 2?

Ok... do me a favor, go around searching on the internet, go talk to some christians, and get back to me. Their really is no need to argue this point. It isn't fully applicable in every context, but as to the meme of Christianity and the majority of it's holders.... it is applicable.

Sorry if its your belief and you're offended. It's an analysis, and a generalized one, don't expect it to cover all cases... Don't misconstrue what I'm suggesting either, and yes, the Bible is a perfect book according to its own suggestions.... argue with the Bibles own assertions, not mine.

Further, the Bible is given in a literal context as to its suggestions, and its truths... is open to interpretation... and is thusly interpreted in many way... overall a majority of its believers read the Bible in a very literal way.

Thier are even varying views regarding interpretation within a sect so.... don't expect to get a solid answer, but overall in my experiences.. Their has been an extreme literal interpretation applied and I've known many Christians from various denominations. ( it isn't saying much, I'm sure everyone here has)

http://www.catholicmatch.com/pl/pages/community/articles/details.html?ra=1;id=332
Guess their afraid to give a straight answer, so here's one with a lot of room for their interpretations.

If you want, start a poll on the forums and ask for people views as to how they see Christians believers interpreting the bible. Feel free to do it if you need the point to be proven in you mind, as its more then clear in my own. 


3) Look to the Bible. I'm talking about the meme associated with it, and how it has the capacity (and more often then not) does do what I've outlined. Look to the logic of the Bible, and a disbelief of it is condemning yourself... argue with the Bible not me, sorry if you fail to realize the simple fact presented.


4) Ok buddy, look to Christianity as a whole... what do they say about homosexuality, what does the majority of its adherenents suggest in regards to the nature of it? Right, it's a sin, it's evil. and blah, heathens,  blah, burn in hell, damnation, blah. You're beating a dead horse, argue it all you want. The majority of Christians, don't like it, and only tolerate as they have to in accordance with the law. 


5) Are you working for the pope? Seriously look to the beliefs espoused and carried, and look how sin and guilt trips are utilized in "THE REAL WORLD"? versus what is stated in the Bible.

Christianity tbh is based on the interpretation of events and fairytales, and those in positions of authority determine lifestyles, morals, ethics, and views concerning the political spectrum. We can talk about the suggestions of its basis, then we can point to the actions carried out by its believers in the name of this supposed "freedom". I wonder which will seem more prominant, a religious persons beliefs... or a religious persons actions... I'll leave it at that, as I gurantee you don't want to get into that subject. Although, if you do, Let me know.

Funny how you mention the distinction between the Old, and the New testament... odd, you seem to like it better with Jehova's makeover; either way, its the same book of contradictions, as both are scarred with the deciet of its writers (I can give you ample evidence if you'd like).

The post was based on the meme of christianity, please look it up, and see what it implies... its generalized, works on the fundamentals, and is applicable to the common/dominant forms of the meme.. It will not apply to all the forms of Christianity perfectly... but with a few thousand different variations and differences of beliefs on one book, I don't know exactly what you're expecting.

Give me a sect that doesn't conflict with your beliefs to take a part, as apparently you take offense as is shown by;

1) renaming the Subject of the thread.
2) providing a strawman argument questioning this as a strawman argument... when its not even an argument, but an analysis
3) comming up with ways to justify your assertions over what I've presented.

If you let me know your denomination I can alternativey revise this and PM you a copy and/or post it... let me know how specific you want it .

wjames said:

1) First please consider an analogy.  We both participate in this forum.  It is, or should be, obvious that many posts display an ignorance concernings entheogen use.

2) Is your motivation hostile then?

> please, don't be so daft and think for a sec.

3) If you wish to avoid friendly, intelligent discourse by making insults that is probably effective.  That is not to say I am insulted by this harmless remark.  But it cannot help but make me circumspect. There is nothing ignorant or lacking thought in my reply to you.

4) Several hundred.

5) These few words contain the essence of my concern.  You make no distinction between what a subset of Christians believe and Christianity per se.  If you simply changed your statement to say "the meme of fundamentalist Christianity" we would have no disagreement.

6) I'm scarcely offended.

7) We can probably agree that there are many Christians who take a literal view, and many who don't.  Quibbling about exact proportions is unnecessary.  If there are varying views among Christians, then it would seem your analysis is true in varying degrees.  And my point is that this therefore is not a problem of Christianity per se, but rather some other variable (fundamentalism or perhaps sheer ignorance) which accounts for the variation.

8) Again, the New Testament, more important to Christians, *specifically
denounces a legalistic approach to religion*.  This is an important point which I return to at the close of this post  The early Christians were not dummies.  They were well acquainted with a very sophisticated milieu of Greek and Roman philosophy--Stoicism and
Gnosticism, to name just two.  They were trying to replace the legalistic, Mosaic approach to religion which, in exactly the way you describe, was a 'meme.'  They therefore emphasized freedom, not slavish adherence to rules, as the path.  "You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free," is the antithesis of a meme, is it not?

9) In the entire New Testament, there is only one vague and highly debated (concerning translation) comment by St. Paul possibly relating to homosexuality.  A definite and unambiguous principle, though, is evident the famous passage where the (legalistic) Jews are stoning an adulterous woman:  Jesus stops this by saying, "Let he 
who is without sin cast the first stone." 

No thoughtful Christian would fail to see the relevance of this to homosexuality.

If your suggestion is that most self-designated "Christians" are not very thoughtful, I might not disagree.  But in this case the Bible itself is rather clearly denouncing judgmentalism. 

10) Why is it funny?

11) I don't understand what you mean here.

12) Now perhaps we should simply return to the main issue, that of memes.  As suggested above, Christianity emphsizes in the New Testament freedom and truth.  Instead of whole chapters of
tedious commandments (like not eating cheese and beef on the same plate), Jesus reduces it all to two:  Love God, and love your neighbor.  The simplifying character of Christianity, and its decided emphasis on freedom, is the opposite of a meme.  It is an antidote to memes.  "You shall know the truth..."

13) Second, a very relevant suggestion was made by Carl Jung as to why the "Christian myth" is so successful. Jung saw in the Chrystian myth of salvation (not necessarily *just* a myth, but a myth nonetheless)
an ideal blueprint for the development and liberation of the psyche. 

14) So, in his view, there is an interplay between the "meme" and the inner workings of the psyche.  The most popular memes are precisely those which "resonate" with our own internal needs.  Christianity,
by this view, then, is successful for precisely the same reasons, though on a broader scale, that a successful and popular movie like The Matrix is popular. It provides a system of symbols useful
for the psyche.

15) I trust you will see in this an opportunity to refine your theory/model to account for variables related to interplay of a meme and the pre-existing structures of the human mind--assuming, that is, you do not believe the mind is a total tabula raza.

16) In any case, while we may disagree on whether Christiaity is a 'meme,' we certainly do not disagree that memes exist and are a significant subject.  And no doubt there are many other issues we agree on as well.

---

1) and? Ignorance is displayed all over the place, including most of your assumptions on my character, and my intentions. I don't really understand your point.

2) Its an analysis, however if you want it more specific, say so and I'll get more specific.... tbh it really wouldn't matter if it was hostile if you care to further discuss it.

3) Read the word, apply it to your assumptions, and the general nature of your arguments.... think again, if I wanted to insult people, I'd be in the OTD. On the contrary, I wish to promote all of the above, however its relatively impossible in light of assumptions and assertions without first questioning my intentions. You assumptions are equally insulting, as is your ignorance as to my motivations.

4) That was a rhetorical question It's relatively useless to know anyhow as Christians are everywhere.

5) It's hardly fundamentalist, your preaching fundamentalist doctrine. What I wrote is applicable to the majority of the belief, especially the major ones... try again.

6) good, glad to hear.

7) The meme itself is immersed in ignorance. See faith, and apply logic to it... Anything that relies on something that cannot be proven.... is ignorant to a degree... going to be on a few shit lists for this one . To place your trust in something without reason, isn't the brightest thing to do.

8) No, it is not the anti-thesis of this meme. It's a promotion of the meme in respects that the belief is suggesting it contains "the truth". Old testament... new testament... both versions are edited, and have been altered so much, beyond that their fundamental message is nearly identical, people just got a little brighter and needed a nicer god to compensate for that fact. You can argue what I presented by both versions; you'll still fall short of your proposal that Christianity isn't used, and applicable in the ways I suggested it is as a meme.

9) At the same times it makes so many judgements on its own behalf.... and its adherents use spurious passages to justify their stance on a situation, as no direct proof regarding the actual premise set forth is established; due to it being an antiquated belief that contains multitudes of contradictions.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...4&fpart=all
.... funny book with no judgements eh? Try to step back from your interpretations and use logic a sec. Old testament iirc.

http://www.bible.ca/s-homo=sin.htm
New testament.

10) They both are intertwined, with a few moderate changes. Both were subject to the same alterations.

11) God isn't so spiteful, and condemning as he is in the old testament.

12) Read your book before you write a response please. It may suggest that, but with all the other contradictions, and condmnations on those that don't practice/share the belief on god, is extremely intolerant.

13) Wow! An authority figure will most certainly change my views. No, a truth based on tolerance, and acceptance of everyone and the allowance giving them the ability to harm their body however they see fit will result in liberation of the psyche. As well as freedom, reason, and a better economy.

14) BUZZZZZ! Not the whole answer I'm afraid. Shameless self-promotion as well through its believers, especially through mass media. We can talk about tons of movies perpetuating the belief, through symbology, as well as doctrine, we can talk about how Christianity is associated with stemming off evil by virtue of its meme..... The Matrix if anything, is popular due to it being a mindfuck of a movie selling; fantasy, illusion, and ultimate freedom within the confines of said matrix.... I'm not going to make the connection... I'll leave you to that.

15) No, I would for someone unaware of memetics and who doesn't no about their transfusion and infection ratio. I hold the members of the shroomery in a higher esteem though, no need to dumb it down as it were, unless asked to.

16) If you disagree that it is a meme.... you need to research just what a meme is... it isn't subject to debate; IT IS A MEME! Regarding this last foolish statement of yours, I suggest you do some more research on both memetics and christianity before you get back to me.

Edit:
Tossed in some commas, hopefully cleared up some of what I was suggesting.

slaphappy said:

Or we would have 100 times more blowjobs.

Or both.

And we would finally be stepping one step down on the overpopulation scale.

More blowjobs for all!! Somebody find a way to embed that into an ultimate religion-meme that would infect everybody, and we'll be on our way to peace and freedom.

You see: Creative ideas and acting upon them is what we need. Enough jibberjabber allready.

---

Psychoactive1984 said:

I agree with what you're saying beyond a natural tendency to adopt the Christian meme.... It wasn't more natural to adopt the Christian meme, as it was to adopt Nazism as a meme durring the Third Reich's reign.

Beliefs and memes are given, and accepted as they are told that they make sense. Many a Christian was born into their religion and only know that lifestyle, and do not question their belief out of the conformity enforcment utilized by the meme, the primary being fear of god's retribution, or being tainted through Satan; it works through various mechanisms. (This applies on those not born into it as well, however it isn't as strong as those that were born into it)

---