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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!)
    #3920351 - 03/15/05 09:36 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Following on from the post on AI by OldWoodSpecter.

I was wondering what the opinions would be of the statement:

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses"

(take as a subtext that consciousness arises due to the complexity of the data being processed!)

Any thoughts anyone? I'd like to hear another similar encapsulation for the other side of the argument!

That's my tank of horse flesh! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3920423 - 03/15/05 09:59 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

consciousness - a series of chemical reactions instigated by the senses that render meaning in the beholder

(perchance)

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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: CJay]
    #3920457 - 03/15/05 10:04 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Can I point out that the beholder must be conscious to behold the meaning, and also that that's just a rephrasing of my original question really.


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3920464 - 03/15/05 10:06 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

i agree with all the above
so far


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3920503 - 03/15/05 10:15 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

what kind of data are dreams?

they're not input from the senses.

is expanded consciousness a more advanced interpretive process for the same data?

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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: a_h_w]
    #3920523 - 03/15/05 10:22 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Ah you have exposed a flaw in my original statement.

I shall make an addendum:

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses or by the memory"

However the point about dreams can be destroyed with one sentence. Ready? HERE GOES:

We are not conscious while asleep!

Funny really isn't it?

That's my pish-posh of pot-noodle-mania! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3920533 - 03/15/05 10:24 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

PsilocinSam said:
Can I point out that the beholder must be conscious to behold the meaning, and also that that's just a rephrasing of my original question really.




Sorry - those were just my thoughts. You did ask for peoples thoughts.

It's not really just a rephrasing though, it builds on what you originally said, since you gave no hint of the process.

But anyway....yes the beholder must be conscious, or maybe not....is a robot of current technological standards that interprets data given to it by 'senses' conscious?

If it holds some sort of consciousness then the consciousness is inexorably linked to the 'senses' themselves, as with a human. And with each of these the consciousness is limited by the nature of the senses and the data they can send.

Consciousness must therefore be a sum of senses + data + method of transference + beholder.

The beholder is only conscious through the senses. Therefore the senses are effectively the beholders consciousness.

At least on an everyday level of consciousness - because what we have not touched on are all the extras that we experience as human consciousness. Equally all just chemical reactions being interpreted - but from which ense are the reactions instigated? The dreams we have when asleeep and the worlds that await us there, the dreams we have when awake and the imagination that pervades us etc

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: a_h_w]
    #3920543 - 03/15/05 10:28 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

edit: meant to addres PsilocinSam

My reply above must have been written in tandem with the back and forth about dreams - when I posted and came to the thread I saw this already being tackled.

Quote:

We are not conscious while asleep!




Then how do we have experience while asleep? How can there be a beholder?

How is it that in dreams we can be aware, ie conscious?

Edited by CJay (03/15/05 10:29 AM)

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3920554 - 03/15/05 10:31 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

We are not conscious while asleep!


Actually, some people are, including me about 5 or 6 times in my life(lucid dream).

But besides that, i think that you actually ARE conscious while asleep, just at a very minimal degree. Its consciousness without the consciousness of consciousness.

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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: CJay]
    #3920556 - 03/15/05 10:31 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

you can be conscious and dreaming. that is called lucid dreaming and is one of the most incredible experiences you can have in life. it is so real that you need to use tricks to realize you're dreaming. for instance trying to turn off the lights and realizing the switch doesn't work.

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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: exclusive58]
    #3920716 - 03/15/05 11:20 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Clarification is needed here.

Consciousness is simply being aware of your senses. Are animals conscious? Yes. They are aware of themselves (that they exist..there are many levels of self-consciousness, which is where the confusion comes in) because they are aware of their environment. They have a context in which to compare their own existence with and infer things about the environment.

Computers, until they have senses, will never be conscious. You have to be able to sense your environment and MAKE something of the information. Even the lowliest creature can notice and react to it's environment.

Perhaps then you could say that very very weak AI already exists, one of a very low animal, like a roach or something. Simple reactions to environmental stimuli.

But, to understand how we as humans interpret our environments to such an INCREDIBLE degree, will require more knowledge of Neuroscience. We are the way we are because of our brains. The brain is the key to linking the senses and the processing together to create all levels of consciousness.


And no you are not conscious while you are asleep. You are alive, but not conscious. If you become Lucid, then yes. You are aware of your perception, and therefore are consciouss.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921189 - 03/15/05 01:35 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Consciousness is not interpretation of data, that is perception.
Computers can recognize shapes too, yet they do not have consciousness
Sophisticated programs can do wonders, even recognize people faces, decode 2D image renderings into 3d space etc. etc.
Yet there is nobody there to experience that.

Consciosuness has nothing to do with senses, or perception, or even thoughts.

you can clear your mind of thoughts, close your eyes, go into a silent room and float in zero gravity naked.
You don't see, you don't think, you cant hear, you can't feel,
yet you are conscious

It is hard to define what it actually is.

It is a point of view from wich life takes place, consciousness is separate from thoughts, memory, feelings, actions and perception.
It is that piece of psyche that makes it all worth existing in the first place. What is the use for memory and thought if nobody can be aware of it?

Where it comes from? Time will tell. That is probably 22'nd century science.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921191 - 03/15/05 01:35 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

My $0.02:

Consciousness or Intelligence is simply the recognition of patterns and the ability to react to those patterns in a dynamic way.

Computers are already designed to take in, interpret, change, and make patterns in a dynamic way. The problem is that we don't give them the capabilities to react in a way that we think would make it "alive"

Living organisms had to react to stimuli in a way that ensured their survival. Computers don't have to do that.

Perhaps there already is a digital consciousness that we are not aware of. Is it possible that some of these internet viruses are NOT being created by humans? Doesn't the internet react to itself in a hugely dynamic way according to the data that we put into it? If you've ever seen Ghost in the Shell then I'm pretty much talking about the same idea.

Human consciousness arose out of aparent nothingness because the structure (brain) was there which supported the recognition and interpretation of patterns. I believe that if we give a supercomputer a physical body and give it the ability to react with it's environment then it will eventually behave as a conscious entity.

And whether we like it or not, it WILL be conscious, just as we are. We are only machines made of organic compounds. There is really nothing special about us.

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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3921504 - 03/15/05 03:01 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

There is no way in hell that there is some kind of digital consciousness. Nothing digital knows it is alive.

And OldWood, what about this?

What if you were never born with senses? You were born numb, blind, deaf, no smell, and tasteless. How would you have any concept of anything? You couldn't be consciouss because you wouldn't have anything at all to be conscious of.

Our brains interpret alot of information, but the only way our brain gets that information is from the senses. The senses are not sepsrate from consciousness.

Now being at a level of conscioussness of a HUMAN, that is somewhat differnet because we have senses just like animals and flies and fish, but we are also incredibly intelligent. What is the distinction between conscious and human conscious? Hmm...

Dunno :wink: I would have to say it would be the low level neuronal basis that allows us to do what we do.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921617 - 03/15/05 03:30 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

You would be conscious of dark and of nothingness, but it wouldn't feel like dark because you don't know of anything else.
But there would still be you who experiences no sensory data and pure black.

In fact, only then would you know what you really are

I think our ideas o consciousness are a bit different and that is where our views begin to differentiate..

I think for you the word consciousness comes like this:
"conscious OF"

but for me it comes like this:
"conscious"


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921680 - 03/15/05 03:48 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

I have this little "exercise" that I do sometimes. It starts with hypnosis.

First I start with finding a quiet surroundings for concetration.
Usually it is my bedroom just before I go to sleep. Then I enter selfhypnosis and shut of sounds around me zo zero, so I don't hear the fridge, or sounds from the distant cars etc. etc.
Then I release myself from tactile senses and pretty soon all of my body starts feeling like it is made of plastic and is not mine at all, next I don't feel it at all. It is a funny feeling, as if the life is suched out of my body starting from legs and withdraws into my brain
After a few more steps i "fall" into myself, into great big darkness of nothingness. It feels like everything dissapears, like I'm dieing. Like a black hole is forming right in the middle of my brain.
First few times I freaked, and panicked and "woke up" because it can feel frightening.

Anyway, in the end there is just me and nothing more. Thoughts are focused only on the darkness I am sinking in or else it doesn't work.

And guess what, I still exist in there.

I literally don't know where I am, or where my body is, it's just me somewhere in the middle of nothing.

Try that and you will see that you can exist only as a "brain in a jar" without any senses.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3922040 - 03/15/05 05:19 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Well see that approach doesn't fit into what I am saying. You are just "turning off" your senses. I'm talking about never having had senses before. You've had senses all your life, and you've been able to experience your environment and other people, and feel things for years and years.

If you NEVER had senses, then how would you even know you exist? What would possibly clue you in? You wouldn't even have any clue that "You" or "I" exist. Imagine how clueless a baby is. Now just assume that he never developed senses while in the womb. He's essentially dead. Not aware of or conscious of anything.

"But there would still be you who experiences no sensory data and pure black."

That doesn't make sense. You can't experience black without having experienced color. You can't understand "pure" without understanding something like tainted, or mixed. None of these concepts could arise! You would have -nothing- at all to base your existence off of. Nothing.

In fact, I'd like to hear one thing that you could possibly understand if you were created without senses. Give me one concept that you could grasp, regardless of how simple it is.

And I don't actually think there is any difference between your "conscious" and my "conscious OF". Even if you do your sensory loss idea, you still have a semblance of yourself that you formed earlier, and you are "conscious OF" that idea you've created of yourself.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3922264 - 03/15/05 06:18 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Freddurgan>> The only difference between animal consciousness and human consciouness is that we have the ability to recognize far more complex patterns than an animal. That's all intelligence is! We can recognize patterns so well that we can manipulate them in order to enhance our survival. Some animals can sense patterns of magnetism, like certain single celled organisms that have particles of magnetic minerals inside of them. We can't sense these patterns because we do not have the structures to percieve them, but at the same time, magnetism affects us in ways that we don't notice.

now let me ask you something. When you were born, with all your senses and everything, were you immediately self-aware? No. Although you had the capabilities to recieve and sense data from the world around you, it wasn't until you had ENOUGH data to organize into a paradigm of patterns that you recognized yourSELF as a conscious entity. (okay, so it was kinda a rhetorical question...)

So just because a computer is digital and "doesn't know it's alive" doesn't mean that it couldn't eventually develop a consciousness from all of the data on the internet. It may not be a consciousness like anything we know, but I believe that it COULD happen.

I eagerly await the day that I can sit down and philosophize about consciousness with a computer!

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3922387 - 03/15/05 06:46 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Mind that in such a state, I am not "thinking" about the darkness and comparing it to the light, those thoughts come later on when I return.

You can't say: you remember sensual stimuli, so of course you know that you are alive, because I'm not thinking about what I experience at that moment, I just experience it.
experience is the key word in the process of consciousness

I tell you, in those moments you forget who you are and where you came from in a second and forget that you have a body.

Now don't take me wrong, I'm not sitting there thinking OMG, who the hell am I??, no, when I say forget, I mean your conscious mind has a "memory dump" and for a few seconds you have no idea of anything exept that you just are.

IF you empty your mind for a second, it doesn't matter if you have all the knowledge of the world in your memory, or been to the moon or mars, non of it existes any more because your consciousness has been cleaned out of information in general (thoughts, memory, sensory etc.)

What you said does apply in the process of "diving in" because in that time your thoughts are still comparing and thinking, but once you cross the boarder it doesn't matter any more.

I have a feeling that If I was born without any stimuli I would feel the same way, like a conscious coma, or like floating in zero gravity blackness.

I grant you that it would be very difficult to develop an actual ego as we all "normal" folks have, probably impossible, but consciousness
would be there, it would just be empty, in STBY mode, waiting to be ignited with thought.

All I am saying is if there is split second in wich you can not feel anything or think anything, and you actually experience that, it means that consciousness is separate from all that.

consciousness is the medium of experience

Without any material to experience, consciousness is empty, it's like staring at a blank screen, it's not actual death because the lack of everything is still experienced by someone, everything(nothing) is still hapening from a certain point of view, that point of view is your consciousness.

To use some analogy of what I mean:

Consciousness is a CCD sensors, and thoughts, memories, emotions, sensations and senses are photons that hit it.

As long as the CCD is powered and ready, you are a conscious being,
if you fall out of consciousness or have a mental death (if such a thing is possible) the CCD looses power and no matter what hits it
it will not make electricity.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3922480 - 03/15/05 07:10 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

p.s. Just in case you misunderstand me, here is a little glossary the way I use those words:

consciousness: point of view from which anything is experienced, is static, can not be higher or lower, it just is

awareness: the level of knowledge about something, it can be higher and lower, more information=higher awareness.

to connect these two...

awareness "stands" on consciousness, even babies have consciousness because when you go back (as far as you can) and remember the events from childhood, you still know they took place from your own conscious point of view. with age, awareness grows like a plant planted in consciousness (dirt, earth).
Awareness is the "number" wich describes how much of consciousness is filled with something.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3923506 - 03/15/05 10:25 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Interesting thread. I was glad to see lucid dreaming come up. I go conscious while in dreams pretty regularly. That alone tells me consciousness exists receiving data input NOT coming from the 5 physical senses. I'm even getting to where I can be conscious in dream states while awake in the morning living in two places at once. I know a few others who say they are experiencing that too.

It's not the same as what we call day dreaming because the alternate reality is being imposed upon and not imagined as I generate imagined day dreams when fully awake and they are very different.

Here's an example of the imposition. There are times in lucid dream states I am being given volumes of information in text from that is beyond profound and because I am lucid, I know that the self I know as Cindy doesn't know this stuff and never did. What sucks is that, as I come back into waking consciousness I can not hold the comprehension of the information. Why is that? All I can postulate is that my brain doesn't have the computing ability and then I have to wonder what mind it is I am in , in dream states that does and can comprehend the information easily.

Sometimes I catch gomp on IM when I am waking up and tell him I am having a hard time pulling out of dream states and he's like, "pull information man". I can go in and get it but I can't bring it through into anything comprehensible. It's like having two minds with different hard and soft drives that are incompatible for transferring data.

Some one suggested that dreaming was just a product of memory data input to cancel the whole idea out. I have been to places in my dreams that I have NEVER seen or imagined in this life time of mine so how can they come from my memory? They are highly detailed and crystal clear and some I revisit when lucid because they are so beautiful and partly because the aetheric sensors are better especially when it comes to the color frequencies they can perceive. I have seen colors and vividness in my dream states that I have not seen with my physical eyes.

Say for discussions sake all the I mentioned of lucid dreaming comes from subconscious soul memory of other existences because they sure don't come from this one. Now if we take Fredruggens suggestion that without sensory memory from this life there would be "nothing" whose to say that a human wouldn't start tapping into the subconscious soul memory? I know, no scientific proof it exists but there is none that says it doesn't either. Many have their own experiential proof so I am running with that.

Here's a question for Fred or anyone. Say a baby was born without the 5 physical senses working. Giving this a lot of thought, would that person not even experience a gravitational pull? Would they experience weightlessness or not? If you dropped them from a cliff would they know they were falling/moving in anyway? Does the touch sense include emotion or G force pulls? How does all that work?

This has been fun to think about and consider. Whats to say all life on earth isn't experimental forms of biological AI to a higher intelligence? In a warped way I can see it being so.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3923788 - 03/15/05 11:22 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

The mind is a little bitty self contained universe. Once input goes in the mind can turn it into infinitely complex ideas with the power of imagination. You have to understand though, that there is a real phsyical world with which we interact, but the world we actually live in is simply one of ideas. Ideas that have been formulated from all of our sensory data and are not real anywhere else but in our mind.

Nothing is real. It's an illuuUUUUuuusssion!

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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3924457 - 03/16/05 05:38 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Everything is real, but the reality is not what we perceive (not entirely anyway). I believe that is what the soul is, the difference between the sensory data of the REALity of the external world, and the internal processes that automate a lot of the senses.

Anyway, to respond to OldWoodSpecter:

If you are experiencing nothing, you are still making a comparison. This being that of nothing from something, it is still referring to your EXPERIENCES and so memories. That being a key distinction here.

If a baby was born completely senseless it would not have that reference, there would be nothing, but having never seen something who knows what the interpretation would be. Certainly that baby would have great difficulty being considered alive, let alone conscious, by many people.

Well that's my peanut-shell of antiquities! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3924639 - 03/16/05 08:04 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
I have this little "exercise" that I do sometimes. It starts with hypnosis.

First I start with finding a quiet surroundings for concetration.
Usually it is my bedroom just before I go to sleep. Then I enter selfhypnosis and shut of sounds around me zo zero, so I don't hear the fridge, or sounds from the distant cars etc. etc.
Then I release myself from tactile senses and pretty soon all of my body starts feeling like it is made of plastic and is not mine at all, next I don't feel it at all. It is a funny feeling, as if the life is suched out of my body starting from legs and withdraws into my brain
After a few more steps i "fall" into myself, into great big darkness of nothingness. It feels like everything dissapears, like I'm dieing. Like a black hole is forming right in the middle of my brain.
First few times I freaked, and panicked and "woke up" because it can feel frightening.

Anyway, in the end there is just me and nothing more. Thoughts are focused only on the darkness I am sinking in or else it doesn't work.

And guess what, I still exist in there.

I literally don't know where I am, or where my body is, it's just me somewhere in the middle of nothing.

Try that and you will see that you can exist only as a "brain in a jar" without any senses.





You know, i've never experienced what you are talking about here, yet somehow i know exactly what you are talking about.
Has lots of practice in meditation led you to achive this state of nothingness? Or is it more like something inherent?

I'm glad you talked about your body feeling like plastic, like its not yours. On my first shroom trip i realized as i was rubbing my hands that the feeling of them was really "new", like if i had never felt them that way before, like if they were not mine.

Since then i'm able to feel my hands that way whenever i want, like now, and it feels exactly like when i was tripping. And that's the state of mind i'm aiming for when i meditate, and i can sorta feel my whole body that way. but notquite though.

So perhaps the answer to my question is that you learned this while tripping..so did the shrooms have anything to do with this?  :stoned:


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3924960 - 03/16/05 10:27 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

What about physical forms that receive data input and org anise themselves from it that don't have a brain like plants and water? A plant can rearrange itself to face the sun light so it is perceiving sensory input and utilizing it without a brain. Consciousness can exist without a brain here.

Water doesn't even have a nervous system let alone a brain and it organizes its crystal structure to written words taped to a bottle and even music. When you freeze it you can see the crystal patterns certain words and music repeatedly create. Words like Adolf Hitler don't even crystallize but the word love makes a beautiful snowflake pattern. Metal music doesn't make snowflake patterns it looks more like glass shards but symphony music makes a snowflake pattern.

Water doesn't even have eyes to see the words or ears to hear the music so whats up with that related to this topic? You can do the experiment yourself with distilled water, a bottle, freezer and microscope.

Wish I had the link handy to that web site, the pictures are awesome.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3924986 - 03/16/05 10:39 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

although a plant can have photo tropism, and a crystal can emerge from it's liquidity, these are not organized to also observe their own adjustment.

our adjustment system has such a degree of feedback (reflection) that, aside from movement and positions, we can even quantitatively assess our "wakeful consciousness" (reflectivity? brilliance?), our "dreaming consciousness" (imagination internalization) and our relative "dormancy" or ultra slow consciousness (dullness).

perhaps the degree of feedback which relates to self-aware consciousness can go much further too!

at what point might we have to assume godhood? (erroneously of course).


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925115 - 03/16/05 11:16 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Bless your heart for adding more food for thought to wonder upon related to what I added.

The purpose of my adding it was to comment that sensory perception does exists in forms without brains. A plant is a living thing that can die still but water??? Blows my mind.

That's what you got me thinking about. You mentioned how the plant or water doesn't have the cognizant ability to observe its own readjustments to external stimuli. Do we really know if that is true or not and how can we?

I was thinking about it staring at my pool. Water has a very reflective property and you were saying it has not the ability for conscious self reflection. I took amusement in the thought of water not being reflective of itself. It's natures mirror.

That doesn't prove that water is aware of its reorganizing itself though. Now I am thinking of what test could be set up that would allow for the water to say it is.

I am really intrigued to consider what you said about the ability of self awareness feedback to go much further then it already can in humans. Do you have any insight into that one? My first thought was that it would be like looking in a 3 way mirror when thinking about how the boss liked the aural presentation. Weird. What if consciousness had a 30 way mirror for self reflecting and what if it already does and we are using it and just don't know it?

Your question about erroneously assuming godhood I think will come when we figure out immortality and or create new life forms of our own design.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3925153 - 03/16/05 11:28 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

the tropism is a movement that has built in feedback without recourse to or reliance on anything else.

for us
our CNS is the feedback system - and it is very generalized

it is a constant rollercoaster ride of variables, constructs, memory recall and matching, measuring, and attitude - just to manage the simplest feedback tasks, no wonder we think we are special.
we are.
but mostly not the way we think.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925163 - 03/16/05 11:32 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Alrighty then.

Dreams - I do not believe (yet) that we are working off of some kind of soul consciousness, or global consciousness, or sharing of ideas. I think your completely unique dream lands and experiences are just transformations of things and places you have seen. Just because you have never been to a certain place or received some certain information doesn't mean that your brain can't conjure it up. We know countless amounts of symantics and ideas. We can create new things up on the fly with ease.

Senseless baby - Would he feel a gravitational pull? I seriously don't think so. Not only would they not feel wind on their skin, they wouldn't feel a sense of weight. Weight is just the pull on your body, but if you have NO sense of touch then you can't feel your body. It'd be like me grabbing someone's dead arm and playing with it. If they couldn't hear or see or smell or taste me, they wouldn't know I was playing with their arm. And not only would the baby not know it was falling, it would have much, much less of a clue than that. What is falling? What is up? What is down? What is here? WHat is there?

Even the guy with the dead arm would only feel gravity at the point in which is arm is putting weight on his shoulder. He would feel the weight of his arm but not his arm.

Plants and water - Plants do indeed have senses, and that is a good point. But senses are just the first step to consciousness.

I should probably redefine something I said due to a lot of good feedback.

Senses are necessary but not sufficient for consciousness.

With plants though, I wouldn't think there is any perception. It's not like the plant "feels" warmth. It doesn't "feel" the sun. It just knows that it is warm enough for the cells to grow. It knows that there is more light available from one area than another.

These plant senses are the kinds of senses that a computer has, I think. The kind of robotic reflex senses. Pure reactionary impulses driven by the environment.

And water? I don't believe that water thing for a second. I'd like to see some information on that. Water is just hydrogen and oxygen.

dr0mni - That was some good info right there. When I was born, obviously I wasn't thinking of myself as a conscious entity. But I had senses. If I put my hand in a fire I would have moved it. I can at least get some information from my environment. I was at the level of reactionary, robotic senses. However our minds can process alot more information than that from an early age. We are born with simple abilties of empathy as well. We can be distresed if our mothers are distressed. Our brains are born with SOME abilities other than just soaking up the environment like a sponge, but it's pretty useless still. It needs time and information to grow. But this is what you are saying, and I agree with you.

And I actually do believe you when you say that intelligence is largely based on patterns. Once we have lived long enough to start making generalizations, we can start processing information alot faster. Like babies. They need time to allow synaptic connections to take place. They need time to recognize things they see over and over again. And I still agree with you.

Where I DON'T agree with you is that the computer can start to recognize patterns too. A computer will -not- recognize or gain any sort of awareness in it's current state. You could have every bit of information in the world but it doesn't know what this information is! A computer can link apple -> fruit -> food -> edible, etc etc. But it doesn't know what an apple is. It can link apple -> a red fruit, what what is red? What is the letter 'r'. What is the word "what"? What is a "distinction". There is no MEANING to any of the semantics a computer understands. It doesn't even know what a 1 or 0 is, not does it understand quantity. The only thing the computer can do is store a voltage in a register and it is either high enough to be a '1' or low enough to be a '0'. And then it just has preprogrammed 'values' for these combinations which can be combined by preprogrammed methods to reorganize the high and low values.

There is nothing the computer could do right now that would give it any sort of awareness. Even if the computer was 3x faster than a human brain, it wouldn't gain awareness, ever.

And OldWood, I'm going to have to say I think the opposite. Consciousness "stands" on awareness. The senseless baby is not conscious. The senseless baby is dead by all defenitions but the literal.

Before I start
in?fer - verb - To conclude from evidence or premises.

Just in case.

Consciousness evolves by the level of awareness you have. A plant is "aware" that the sun is behind it, but at such a redicuously minute level. Can it infer anything about it's environment? How many suns are there, plant? It doesn't know. And I doubt any animal does. But at least the animal can infer something about it's environment. Animals can't infer MUCH, but they can.

And humans? We have such rediculous abilties to process our information that comes from our awareness it's hilarious. We are incredibly aware. We can form so many patterns and infer SO much from our environment that it's beyond that of any animal or plant. Our brains are more able than any of species to organize the sensory input we see and make distinctions between it. It's -all- about how well we can organize our sensory input.

The sun is up, what does that mean? Nothing to the plant. All it means is that the cells will now photosynthesize. The animal? I'm not sure. It means it's time to go looking for food? Does it mean it's not dark? Do animals understand dark? Perhaps.

But we can infer so much because, like g0mni said, we can form so many patterns. We can process our awareness so much that we become conscious.

Senses -> awareness processing -> consciousness

A computer can have "senses" like a video camera and a microphone, but it doesn't process those inputs in any meaningful way.

I don't think the mystery lies at either Senses, or consciousness. I think we have those both solved. The mystery lies in the middle, in the processing. In finding out the rediculous complexity that is our brain and it's ability to process what we sense.

Edit : And of course, as Morrowind said below this, this is all speculation. I don't KNOW what I said is true obviously, but I believe it.


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Edited by freddurgan (03/16/05 11:37 AM)

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925167 - 03/16/05 11:32 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

this thread is interesting, i was trying to say something very similar here a year or two ago. Since then I've learned more on the subject.

very fitting that the brain would decide consciousness is vastly important and only possible with a brain, don't you think? As it stands, you know you are conscious, though you're not 100% sure what that really means. Certainly your brain is involved in your version of consciousness, but is consciousness powered by electric signals the only kind of relevant consciousness?

You ( i use this word generally ) have no definitive say on anything other than your own subjective view. This creates a schroedinger-like effect, making anything definitive on consciousness impossible because it requires consciousness to process, which will in turn reinterpret everything.

Anyway, this is not the realm of science, unless science suddenly becomes subjectively driven ( at which point it will cease to exist).

To further my point, do I know you are conscious? Ultimately No. I can guess it and believe it, but know it? If we are to assume *nothing*, then we cannot assume consciousness, ever.

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925181 - 03/16/05 11:37 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

The complexity and abilities of the biological human form is amazing indeed! I will drink to that! :cheers:

It gets taken for granted and we complain about what it can't do but when you stop to think about what it can do and does and that it has evolved from out of star dust I am quite humbled in awe.  :japsmile: :whoa:


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3925201 - 03/16/05 11:43 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

why?
It's just stardust in action if you look at it that way. Nothing is special about humanity.

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3925270 - 03/16/05 12:00 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

I dunno...........the fact that we can even think we are amazing organizational structures of of active star dust is amazing to me. Star dust, elements and chemicals can contemplate itself? That's not amazing to you?

Fredruggen,

If the water crystallization experiments were of interest to you, I'll take a few to dig up the link. Some one posted it here a few months back and I didn't save it, I should have.

Thanks for the comments on the senseless baby gravity stuff.

regarding dream states consciousness. You are saying then that we can formulate new ideas while in dream consciousness based on what is stored in our memory banks. I can't disagree with a simple solution like that and I can still hold other theories I have. Many inventors say they get their invention ideas from dreams and I have heard of mathematicians solving complex problems they couldn't work through while awake in dreams.

I would like to know what makes dream state consciousness extra- ordinary. Is it simple due to the state of relaxation we are in?


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AI [Re: freddurgan]
    #3925281 - 03/16/05 12:04 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

the computer can definitely be set up to recognize pattern
in vision systems and auditory and gyroscopical and navigational applications.

I think they are not generalized enough yet in the matter of events and error handling, to be self aware yet, but they will be, they will manage even more complex feedback - and watch tehmselves in the process, and they may even be able to get addicted to the rollercoaster rythm of life as well.

why not?


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: exclusive58]
    #3925779 - 03/16/05 02:02 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

No I have never tripped on anything , at least not yet..

And it's not meditation either..

In fact it's funny, first time it happened by accident almost..

I was trying to induce selfhypnosis, by using recommended steps,
and I was thinking about falling deeper and deeper with numbers and all, and when I got to zero it felt like i was dropped out of some airplane into a deep dark black watter, everything dissapeared and I got freaked out, my heart started pumping and I escaped it and went back in shock and fear. I was fully aware of everything, that is why it scared me like that.
Later on i went back to that place in my mind and try to make some sense of it and release my self of that first fear i experienced.
So the second time it allso felt strange and scairy, but I was able to control my self and just let go of my fears.
After shutting down all my fears and thoughts I discovered that this dark place leads to something even deeper and darker, so I went there too.

That even deeper place is what I would call nothingness..

You know that noise your optical nevers make when you close your eyes, so you see all kinds of stains, grains, lines etc?
Well in that dark place even that goes away, so there is litteraly darkness.
I do not register sounds in my mind, and as I said, I loose all sense of my body, like someone cut every nerve connecting my brain with the rest of the body with a knife. There just is big black nothing.
And the thoughts are concentrated on the blackness in front of me, so they are still, and I don't think about anything exept the breat big nothing.

It can be very pleasant or it can be a nightmare depending on how do you approach it.


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Re: AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925827 - 03/16/05 02:12 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the computer can definitely be set up to recognize pattern
in vision systems and auditory and gyroscopical and navigational applications.

I think they are not generalized enough yet in the matter of events and error handling, to be self aware yet, but they will be, they will manage even more complex feedback - and watch tehmselves in the process, and they may even be able to get addicted to the rollercoaster rythm of life as well.

why not?




Once the processing of that visual information gets to a sufficient level, then yeah I'm sure an AI will exist. But who knows how our brains process information? Nobody :wink: Well kind of, but, baby steps.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3925890 - 03/16/05 02:35 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
The mind is a little bitty self contained universe. Once input goes in the mind can turn it into infinitely complex ideas with the power of imagination. You have to understand though, that there is a real phsyical world with which we interact, but the world we actually live in is simply one of ideas. Ideas that have been formulated from all of our sensory data and are not real anywhere else but in our mind.

Nothing is real. It's an illuuUUUUuuusssion!




I like this idea. Could it possilby help solve the Idealism/Materialism "conflict?" Materialism explains the outside world, while Idealism explains the inside world. Or is there more to it?

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: Darcho]
    #3926283 - 03/16/05 03:49 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Is there even a connection? Define materialism. I always have thought of materialism as "buy buy buy" but that sounds more like consumerism. I probably have it defined somewhere in my head but under some other word.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3926362 - 03/16/05 03:58 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Materialism in regards to the mind-body distinction: Mind and body are dependent on matter.

A opposed to Idealism: Mind and body are dependent upon ideas.

I think that the materialism you may be thinking of is the obsession of material possessions, or something along those lines.

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3927370 - 03/16/05 07:14 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

well the thing is that using such perception you're nothing but a product of stardust, so of course stardust can think and contemplate itself. Your human ego makes you hold the assembled and evolutionarily selected dust as superior.

Quote:

Star dust, elements and chemicals can contemplate itself? That's not amazing to you?



Not one bit. The materialistic age has created this sense of wonder in most modern thinkers. I am chemicals and elements- they are not separate from me in the least. That someone has gone so far as to classify them and give them their own connotation and imply a different denotation does not change anything.

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3927958 - 03/16/05 08:56 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

That was neat! The reply read like the person in your avatar said it.

It was not I, that called humans "special", I just think the complexity of the human design is pretty damn amazing, then again, I am a female that created a human life and I have never known an awe and wonder like I did first looking into her eyes.

So you think no one had a "sense of wonder" before the "age of materialism"? The wonder and awe being expressed here is over a product of the natural world-the human being. You think pre material age humans did NOT experience wonder and awe over products of the natural world?

I don't understand the connection between the materalistic age creating a sense of awe for the natural wonders of the world in modern thinkers.

I await your reply as it should be rather interesting to hear how you are going to tell me a sense of wonder for the natural world didn't exist before the age of materilism. Swami wanted somthing original and I think this one is it!


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3928011 - 03/16/05 09:04 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

?

No you misunderstand. I meant the awe and wonder that we are elements and chemicals, as if they were separate somehow. Before, there was no dissection of reality into what can be called indisputable objectivity. Of course people had awe- but it had nothing to do with thinking we are stardust.

Dust from dust, ashes to ashes
Their awe lie in God
Our awe lies in a far cruder and simpler beast

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3928067 - 03/16/05 09:14 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

also im confused- how did my avatar have anything to do with it?

The complexity of human design is, IMO, creepy. However, my whole view is essentially a rejection of individuality as a relevant distinction. As a human, I will act so as to further human interests, most often my own and that of my kin's. I cannot escape being a human with a subjective reality which will ultimately take control of any objective reality that may exist. I work differently than most people, but that holds true for mostly all people.

However, I *am* but A human as best as I understand it. My body is very important, but I think that it is more of a link between entities, all of which would be considered me by some one else, than a being in itself. In short, evolved stardust is just stardust. When I die, my body will add to some other being's matter, or so I assume.

Where is the wonder? One day, humanity may evolve into something esle. Will only the new species be wonderous?

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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3928261 - 03/16/05 10:09 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

I understood that well! Thanks for adding it. I think it all is wondrous old and new. I can watch the crocodiles at bush gardens for hours and they really aren't even moving and jelly fish I could watch all day. I must be be simple minded or something as an ant hill and all of its activity can captivate me for a spell.

I think what started this exchange sounds like when you replied to some comments from others about humans being 'special" from other biological designs and I didn't catch that till later.

I don't think humans or any human is more special then any other creation of the natural world and universe. Its all just as worthy of my awe and amazement. I see where you are coming from now and it sounds like you don't like the human egos idea of dominance or its drive to dominate.

I wrote here a ways back about how the plants and animals don't need humans to survive but we need them to survive. Food for thought for human dominists types.

Maybe humans will get screwed if the AI they develop turns to dominate over them.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3928310 - 03/16/05 10:25 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

PsilocinSam said:
Following on from the post on AI by OldWoodSpecter.

I was wondering what the opinions would be of the statement:

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses"

(take as a subtext that consciousness arises due to the complexity of the data being processed!)

Any thoughts anyone? I'd like to hear another similar encapsulation for the other side of the argument!

That's my tank of horse flesh! :stoned::mushroom2:





senses, is simply the interpreted data, given to counsciousness.. :wink:

(by 'acting' it F.e.)


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: Gomp]
    #3928652 - 03/16/05 11:54 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

well I don't want to read all the new threads from today, I'm pretty tired, so I'm just going to respond to the conversation where it was at page 3.

freddurgan>> I understand why you think what you do. It's hard to think of consciousness different from our own, but let me try and convince you of my POV a little more. LOL!

A computer may only be patterns of 1 and 0, but our brain functions in a very similar way. Our nerves fire patterns of neurotransmitters in on/off patterns too. Empathy? Love? "Feel"? These are just PATTERNS of neuron activity. You can create these feeling and alter them with drugs or certain external stimuli. These are completely arbitrary. All in all it's just a big physical/chemical reaction. There really is NO explaination as to why we experiance it the way we do. When we think of things as "apple" we aren't really seeing or experiancing "apple" our brain goes {food> fruit> edible> etc} and then this whole pattern is arbitrarily labeled as pattern#"apple". This is all done so in some strange dance of enzymes and transmitters inside our brain.

A computer is the same thing, except it uses silicone and metal instead of nerves, and electricity instead of neurotransmitters (oh yeah, and our nerves do create a small amount electricity to help fire the signals). Take the web adress to this page for example (yeah, look up at it right now), that big long string of seemingly random characters doesn't "mean" anything to us, but it means something very specific to a computer.

Maybe this digital consciousness doesn't exist now in any obvious form because our computers are still like lower animal or even plant/fungi/bacterial reactionary type consciousness. All they need is the right structure to create more complex pattern recognition systems, and the ability to interact with the physical world and BAM! It won't be long until you have pattern recognition that is on the same scale as humans. They won't "feel" emotions because emotions are a product of hormones and bio-organic chemicals in a bio-organic system. But they will will experiance SOMETHING!

Okay, now for the water thing. This is obviously stretching pretty far into the mega-hypothetical area, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time over analyzing it. I'm just goint to say this:

If our consciousness arises from the reactions between molecules and the positive/negative interactions of molecules, then it can be assumed that consciousness is really everywhere, between every interaction. It's not something different withing space/time, but it is inherent to reality just like space/time. All it needs is the right structure.

So who really knows. Maybe water and dirt and things have the divine power that leads to consciousness. After all, if it wasn't for water, dirt, and air, life never would've come about. Consciousness seemed to just spring forth from between the atoms and molecules. Perhaps inanimate objects are actually in the "highest" form of consciousness which just happens to be the simplist. That state of consciousness that doesn't create illusions of ego, or ideas. It just IS, like God. (remember, I said perhaps)

And once we understand this, we will have the ability to make not artificial intelligence, but REAL intelligence!

**even if you still don't agree with me, I've had a very fun conversation! It may be a dumb idea, completely fanciful and romatic, but it's my way of relating how we really are and can be ONE with the universe.

I'll read the rest of these posts tommorrow.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3928820 - 03/17/05 12:49 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses"

There is mounting evidence that the seat of consciousness lies in Quantum Weirdness at scales below the Planck limit. If this turns out to be so, then as far as we know, it will forever be impossible to precisely characterize the mechanisms that give rise to consciousness because objects smaller than the Planck Scale make no sense; the equations of physics don't work at these scales.

To put things into perspective, consider that quarks are about 1,000 times smaller than protons; the Planck Length is 100 quadrillion times smaller than a quark. Lengths smaller than this do not make sense according to our current understanding of space-time and are as far from our ability to make direct observations of as the most distant galaxy is on the opposite end of the size scale.

As far as the possibility of one day a computer becoming sentient, this will never happen, IMO. There are a few reasons, but the most obvious is that conventional computers cannot generate true random numbers; they are deterministic. They always do the same thing given the same starting conditions. I think it will eventually be found that at least some of the mechanisms of consciousness originate in the realm of Quantum Randomness.

That said, Quantum Computers are on the very distant horizon, and they may change everything if they're ever made practical. :badcomputer:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (03/17/05 08:08 AM)

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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3929611 - 03/17/05 08:44 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Well, your point is good. Computers may work in patterns of 1's and 0's, but we pretty much do too. So what's the secret? This has become much more complex throughout these 3 pages, I must say.

For instance, if we found out the exact patterns that a brain uses to decode visual data, and we understood EVERYTHING about it and made a perfect algorith, could we recreate it? Does the pattern alone give us anything? This is quite a question.

And when you said "they won't feel emotions", would they? I'm starting to wonder why not. The only reason we "feel" anything is because our nerves, but there is nothing TOO special about our nerves. They are neurons, they chain fire in a line to form a pattern of activity. What about that makes us feel? What about being touched with a flame makes it "hurt". Are the neurons just firing rapidly? Why couldn't a computer "feel", given that feelings are just neurons. The chemicals and hormones don't have anything to do with it because all those chemicals and hormones control our nerves and brain.

There is a huge, huge mystery in the middle of this that just blowing my mind.

To quantify my ideas some :

Sensation : the idea of sight, touch, taste, etc. You don't just have eyes, you "see". You don't just touch it, you "feel" it. You don't just inhale molecules into your nose, you "smell" it. There is a mechanical "touch", and a ????? "feel".

Perception : Making something out of what you just saw or touched

Consciousness : At this point I couldn't tell you

Senses -> ???? -> sensation
What allows these neural activation patterns to allow us to FEEL or EXPERIENCE these images. If I hit my finger with a hammer, all that is happening is a huge activation of nerves in my finger telling my brain "OW OW OW OW", but how does that activation link to me feeling pain?

Senses -> ???? -> perception
This one is complicated now too. I think this is more of an algorithmic idea than anything else. How does all the visual stimuli that flows into our eyes (and give the sensation of sight) get encoded (decoded?) into something useful? How does our brain put this stuff together?

Senses -> ???? -> consciousness
Well now I'm a little flamboozled. I stand by the fact that
a.) Senses are neccesary but not sufficient
but now I have
b.) What is it about the senses that amounts to experience?

But this is pretty much the problem we've been having all along. I kind of feel like I did a circular run around it.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3929665 - 03/17/05 09:03 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

senses are like raw feeds to the Consciousness Engine

the data comes in - the Consciousness Engine experiences some raw data
the data triggers associations

when a simmilar pattern occurred in the past an engram was set
the new data makes that pattern chime like a tuning fork because of the engram fitting closely.

In this way the Consciousness Engine experiences recall or association.

perceptions are processed feeds to the Consciousness Engine, feeds with associations and with data discarded as well.

As the day progresses new engrams are set some are mere extensions of old ones.

among the things that resonate in the consciousness engine are reflections of itself, its origin and it predicament.

not everything is stored as engrams or extensions to engrams, some of the lush processing field is just pure enrichment and processing of senses & memory in the consciousness engine. Effervescent moments of life.

Consciousness is all of that which happens in the consciousness field.


--------------------
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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3929979 - 03/17/05 10:38 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

for starters, youre treating this like a complicated math problem.

Quote:


Well, your point is good. Computers may work in patterns of 1's and 0's, but we pretty much do too.



No, rationalization is the process by which we act as computers do. We are not inherently boolean. If anything, chaos theory based computers would be the first step toward AI.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: Diploid]
    #3930087 - 03/17/05 11:06 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

There is mounting evidence that the seat of consciousness lies in Quantum Weirdness at scales below the Planck limit.





Links please?


Quote:

To put things into perspective, consider that quarks are about 1,000 times smaller than protons; the Planck Length is 100 quadrillion times smaller than a quark. Lengths smaller than this do not make sense according to our current understanding of space-time and are as far from our ability to make direct observations of as the most distant galaxy is on the opposite end of the size scale.





Wow, that's pretty damn small. So there's really supposed to be activity going on at a such a small scale? I thought Planck's length was used as a limit where nothing could get any smaller?


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3930259 - 03/17/05 11:57 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
for starters, youre treating this like a complicated math problem.

Quote:


Well, your point is good. Computers may work in patterns of 1's and 0's, but we pretty much do too.



No, rationalization is the process by which we act as computers do. We are not inherently boolean. If anything, chaos theory based computers would be the first step toward AI.




Everything in the world can be related and understood through numbers, so this is like a big math problem. We don't work with just 1's and 0's of course, there are tons of different types of neurotransmitters, but each one of these DOES function with on/off (fire/don't fire) modes.

Chaos theory probably would get us a step closer, perhaps because it represents natural patterns.

The reason I say that the conscious machine wouldn't "feel" emotions, is that emotions are entirely survival tools. "love" makes us stick together and help each other survive. "Fear/anger" are simply the sensation of our bodies preparing to fight a danger or run. We like to think that these emotions MEAN something, but they are just chemical reactions needed for survival. A computer will not have these tools, but they will have their own methods for survival (once they start to reproduce).

They won't need audio language or facial expressions because they will be able to communicate using direct thoughts by sending radio signals to each other. Since they can send such precise data, they can directly experiance other machines consciousness, they will never argue or fight. There is no need to, they would logically determine what exactly happened and what it was like to have it happened to themselves. They will truly be ONE consciousness experianceing itself through different viewpoints.

perhaps THIS will be a golden age. Where all the evils of our technological society culminate into the birth of a new consciousness, more pure and godly than we could ever be as humans. But it's okay, because humans will only die off physically. By creating this consciousness we are simply expanding our own. Our self-aware souls will live on in the machines and we will survive THROUGH them! Humans will eventually go extinct, but machines will be able to survive in space like we never could, colonizing other planets, and perhaps genetically manipulating life on other planets so that they will evolve into intelligent beings. Maybe we will plant shroom spores on the new planet and provide them with the gift of psilocybin.

Our human bodies are only vessels carrying our consciousness. Have you ever looked at your body and hands while tripping and felt like it wasn't really "you"? Instead it seems like some kind of weird organic machine designed so strangly and perfectly so that you could experiance your life. We are simply energy. Lets put our energy in machines and see what that's like for a few thousand years or so.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3931562 - 03/17/05 05:14 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Everything in the world can be related and understood through numbers, so this is like a big math problem. We don't work with just 1's and 0's of course, there are tons of different types of neurotransmitters, but each one of these DOES function with on/off (fire/don't fire) modes.




Everything rational can be understood via numbers. If you rearrange the number system to account for irrationality, then everything can be expressed via numbers, but still not understood -- since your number system is no longer independently meaningful.


Quote:

are just chemical reactions needed for survival



No, they do mean something. That they are executed via chemcial reactions is just that- their medium. Ultimately, you could try to link everything in existence to survival, but that wouldn't explain its significance. If it were true that emotions were purely chemical signals to induce action, then it is inconsistent with the fact that very few people act on emotion alone and also with the fact that people can exercise full control over their emotions.



You are expressing theories about reality as if they were reality. This is not the process of reality- everything exists as it is. Theory is an external concept, nothing more.


Quote:



perhaps THIS will be a golden age. Where all the evils of our technological society culminate into the birth of a new consciousness, more pure and godly than we could ever be as humans. But it's okay, because humans will only die off physically. By creating this consciousness we are simply expanding our own. Our self-aware souls will live on in the machines and we will survive THROUGH them! Humans will eventually go extinct, but machines will be able to survive in space like we never could, colonizing other planets, and perhaps genetically manipulating life on other planets so that they will evolve into intelligent beings. Maybe we will plant shroom spores on the new planet and provide them with the gift of psilocybin.




Pure speculation and belief. Are you suggesting idealism as underlying reality?




Quote:


Our human bodies are only vessels carrying our consciousness. Have you ever looked at your body and hands while tripping and felt like it wasn't really "you"? Instead it seems like some kind of weird organic machine designed so strangly and perfectly so that you could experiance your life. We are simply energy. Lets put our energy in machines and see what that's like for a few thousand years or so.




Why on Earth would we suddenly inhabit machines? I've felt the same thing without drugs ( i do not suggest basing thoughts about reality on drug-induced states. I do reccomend considering what you see- but only once you're out of the trance ), and I know that I am inseparable from my body. I believe my body to be a link between entities which all combine to make a coherent picture of "me," but I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. What if consciousness outside of a body is just a collective consciousness?

Absolutely nothing in the Universe exists in and of itself. Human-made robots would have human-like features or reactions, but they would be robots, not humans. I am human, and I have no idea what not being human is- I doubt that I will suddenly inhabit an inorganic robot. If robots have humanlike consciousness, it will be still be unique to them. Are you suggesting that consciousness is some sort of force or quality that moves through the Universe? I am open to such a possibility, but then it's not human consciousness that will be inhabiting robots, even if its something close to it.

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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3931773 - 03/17/05 06:01 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Man, this is good info.

Taking a purely evolutionary psychology standpoint, our emotions are indeed survial tools. But taking an evolutionary standpoint makes -everything- about survival. Is this right? Is consciousness simply something that evolved out of sensory processes that accidently gave birth to the most dominant species ever to exist?

Consciousness as a genetic mutation that spawned a dominant species sounds like it could be so. What species would not dominate with the abilities that we have?

Also, I think we have all thought about our bodies merely being vessels. I've had more than my share of occasions where taht possibility seems strikingly real and it flips my world upside down. But thats just so deep I'm not going to get into it right now.

So peace, I'm addicted to this thread so I figured I'd chime in, but I'm drinking so it has to wait.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3931937 - 03/17/05 06:36 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah, that whole thing about the robots was complete speculation, but wouldn't it be cool!? LOL!!

"No, they do mean something. That they are executed via chemcial reactions is just that- their medium. Ultimately, you could try to link everything in existence to survival, but that wouldn't explain its significance."

Meaning only exists in relation to other things. They MEAN something for human survival and experiance, but they don't MEAN or indicate that we are "truly conscious" as compared to other pattern processing systems.

Relating everything to survival can be a bit misleading, so let me put it another way. Everything that IS right now, is hear because that is the way things function. It works this way. So if someone asks, "why do people have five fingers, is there some significance for this?" no, it just is that way because it WORKS. "Why do most animals have four limbs?" because it WORKS. "Why does water run down hill?" because it works.... it doesn't really have any significance other than in relation to whatever it interacts with.

"Why on Earth would we suddenly inhabit machines? I've felt the same thing without drugs ( i do not suggest basing thoughts about reality on drug-induced states. I do reccomend considering what you see- but only once you're out of the trance ), and I know that I am inseparable from my body...... Are you suggesting that consciousness is some sort of force or quality that moves through the Universe?"

I am suggesting that consciousness is everywhere. It doesn't have to move. It is like space, time, and matter; it is inherent to existance. Universal consciousness meaning a conscious universe.

I've experianced that sensation of the body being a machine while not tripping as well. I learned a long time ago not to just accept everything you think, see, and hear while tripping without thinking it through later.

Yes, your consciousness is inseperable from your body, but your body is inseperable from the universe and your physical surroundings. It's not that we would chose to inhabit machines, but that the machines would be extensions of this universal consciousness and also have the gift of being self-aware (a quality that we associate with being human).

once we learn to see past the differences in our physical make up, we can learn to love each other as sentient beings, all of us as children of god (extentions of self-aware universal consciousness).

"You are expressing theories about reality as if they were reality. This is not the process of reality- everything exists as it is. Theory is an external concept, nothing more."

I think at this point we are all just talking out our asses. I mean we're a bunch of shroomheads talking about consciousness.... how much more stereotypical can you get... LOL!!

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3932949 - 03/17/05 09:33 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

I was crusing another message board I havn't been to in a while and found this. I thought to post it in this thread. I know nothing more about it then what is said here but it gives the web-site it came from if anyone wants to research this guys work further for themselves.


Sex and the single robot

Jonathan Watts, East Asia correspondent
Wednesday February 2, 2005
The Guardian

Scientists have made them walk and talk. There are even robots that can run. But a South Korean professor is poised to take their development several steps further, and give cybersex new meaning. Kim Jong-Hwan, the director of the ITRC-Intelligent Robot Research Centre, has developed a series of artificial chromosomes that, he says, will allow robots to feel lusty, and could eventually lead to them reproducing. He says the software, which will be installed in a robot within the next three months, will give the machines the ability to feel, reason and desire.

Kim, a leading authority on technology and ethics of robotics, said: "Christians may not like it, but we must consider this the origin of an artificial species..... creatures." That "essence" is a computer code, which determines a robot's propensity to "feel" happy, sad, angry, sleepy, hungry or afraid. Kim says this software is modelled on human DNA, though equivalent to a single strand of genetic code rather than the complex double helix of a real chromosome.

Kim said: "Robots will have their own personalities and emotion and - as films like I Robot warn - that could be very dangerous for humanity. If we can provide a robot with good - soft - chromosomes, they may not be such a threat." ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1403780,00.html?gusrc=rss


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3933203 - 03/17/05 10:40 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

That link just repeated the article I posted and gave nothing more so I googled his name. This guy looks legit as an innovator in the field of robotics with some impressive titles. I can't find anything yet on his chromosome soft programming research though.

http://www.fira.net/about/president.html


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3935236 - 03/18/05 10:52 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

see man, I'm telling you. All we need to do is put some elbow grease into this and we can create new consciouness... I can't wait!!

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3935461 - 03/18/05 11:45 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

For sure! I was pretty excited to find that article elsewhere by accident as this thread was going off. Synnnnnnnnnnnnnergy is cooooooool! Later I want to google further and see if he has published anything on this particular work yet.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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