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 Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
 
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
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 Re: Myth and Fact  [Re: DNKYD]
#3918643 - 03/14/05 10:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DNKYD said:
Quote:
faslimy said:
facts begin as myth
So it's a fact that Zeus is real and he is the god of all gods?
he was when he was believed in, but when people stop believing in him, he disappeared so, no. it is not, that is now a legend :P heehaw
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Disclaimer!?
Edited by Gomp (03/14/05 10:24 PM)
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 Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Look into the other threads, their are two subsequent threads regarding Christianity... and most evidence provided through scientific deduction asserts that Jesus hasn't existed...
Edit: start
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3909358/an/0/page/0
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3905416/an/0/page/1
finish.
Note:
Not one account is known about Jesus in the time that he walked the Earth. All hearsay and conjecture. I've provided evidence if you are interested in it.
So... just another myth taken as fact.
Unless you can provide me with evidence that correlates his direct existance... in the time that he walked the Earth...
Paul's existence isn't questioned because he freed the ethnocentric meme that was Christianity.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/14/05 10:34 PM)
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JCoke
dream observer
Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland 
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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hello, your name is life on earth
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"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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It's import is in it's meaning...what it can teach...not in it's factual authenticity.
I don't think we will ever agree on this Hue unles you can present a much stronger case. Should my great-great-great-grandchildren after World War III, when most records are erased, aspire to be Superman or The Flash or Wonder Woman?
Should we attempt to be an embodiment of that which never was and feel guilty in failing to do the impossible? Or should we attempt to model ourselves after something actually achievable by another human?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: Swami]
#3918904 - 03/14/05 11:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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The general Consesus suggests that we should:
Attempt to be an embodiment of that which never was and feel guilty in failing to do the impossible.
Now... with that said, who should we provide as role models to the future?
 ?  ? or  ?
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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The_Walrus
Stranger
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: Cambridge, Britain
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Myths are as important as facts when philosophy is discussed. Take the story of Jesus. Was he a real person? It is not important from a religious standpoint and certainly not from a Christian view. The myth reflects the consciousness of man. It's import is in it's meaning...what it can teach...not in it's factual authenticity. If we are discussing history and science facts are the whole of truth, but in the world of religion and philosophy facts are meaningless unless they teach us an essential philosophical truth. In this manner myths are just as important. They tell us where we came from and show us the direction we should go. They are the root core of the spirit of man. They are the dreams of our species.
I totally agree, my favourite myth is that of the small island community which built these figures to appease their gods. One year the harvest was particularly shitty, so they built more figures, this took time and effort, so some of the time and effort which would have been devoted to farming was devoted to building the figures. Then the harvest was even shittier, so they built yet more figures, and yet less time and effort was devoted to farming. This happened until one day they simply all starved themselves. I don't know the factual reliability of this fable, but I don't care, because it illustrates perfectly what I have held true for all my life, that the best way to solve problems is to take time to stop and think about them, decide the best course of action and then continue, rather than thinking that brute force will solve the problem. It also reflects some aspects of our society as well, people spend so much time and effort seeking happiness through materialism, aspiring towards an ideal which they will never obtain, if they were to stop and think and see that the roots of their problems and lack of happiness stem from their striving towards empty ideals, they would get much closer to solving their problems. Just like the community should have realised that their shitty harvest was rooted in the striving to an ideal which has no basis in reality.
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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
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paging joseph campbell...
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: Swami]
#3921395 - 03/15/05 02:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Should my great-great-great-grandchildren after World War III, when most records are erased, aspire to be Superman or The Flash or Wonder Woman?"
You are seeing black and white. We should not aspire to be some supernatural godlike powerbeing. The "archetype" is what is important. The farout powers and adventures in myths are there to grab the attention...make it a good story worthy of telling. Primitive cultures since time began have told tales of myth for religious reasons and to impart the laws and customs of the tribe to the younger generations..and to remind the people of their origins. It was also considered entertainment that brought great delight to the people.
Let us consider the archetype of the hero. I know you to be well read. Surely you have read Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces", if not read it...it is an interesting read. The hero is a normal Joe who one day finds himself in extraordinary circumstances. He undergoes a physical or spiritual death and resurrection. Upon his resurrection he has transcended the self and uses his new found perspective to overcome the great evil he faces. This is the story of every mythical hero from the beginning of time...Jesus, Buddha, Odin, Balder, King Arthur, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Luke Skywalker, Neo, and yes..even Carlos Castaneda (his fictional self) all embodied this archetype. Why? Because this is the story of the common man. We are all of us the hero. We all face troubling circumstances and changing times and from the story of the hero we have before us a roadmap. The hero tells us that change is inevitable and that we should be dynamic...able to constantly reinvent ourselves to confront the conflicts in our lives and overcome them....and even benefit from them in the end. We should constantly die and be reborn anew every minute of every day.
So, quit thinking I am implying that we all be XMen or Superman wannabes, in any case, I look terrible in tights and a cape. I am discussing the use of myth as a means of preserving truth of a philosophical nature. It requires no belief in a supernatural state or entity to see this.
Note: To embody myth in one's life a Star Trek uniform is not needed or desirable.
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (03/15/05 02:52 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: gnrm23]
#3921400 - 03/15/05 02:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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"paging joseph campbell"
Unfortunately Mr. Campbell had no belief in a God or afterlife, and I have no reason to think he has changed his mind.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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The accounts of Acitus, Pliny, and Lucian are merely references...were any photographs, or maybe genetic material associated with their writings...no. So these are merely third and fourth hand accounts...hearsay by legal and scientific standards. I did not say he did not exist...only that there was NO PROOF.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Would it not be better to avoid teaching through such references and teach on principle? Sure, It is easier to relate to a figure in terms of putting something into a more easily read context... but ultimately it becomes, or rather has become a contest of which is better (VS)... which has ultimately proven to be a detriment.
As far as story telling and what not, I see at as more of a form of entertainment... of course it is good as an illustrative tool... but usually isn't due to the fact that it is taken to a higher degree (e.g. mandating one's lifestyle, a countries politics, etc...)
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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"Would it not be better to avoid teaching through such references and teach on principle?"
How do you propose this? Having an illustrative example is the clearest and most logical means of teaching principle.
"As far as story telling and what not, I see at as more of a form of entertainment... of course it is good as an illustrative tool... but usually isn't due to the fact that it is taken to a higher degree"
Surely you are not so shallow minded that you see stories as mere entertainment? What about the classics? How about "1984", or "Brave New World", or "Animal Farm"? Surely the point of these stories is not lost on you. Movies and music are used in a similar fashion in our world today...there is more than just entertainment here..it is our heritage and culture. You should reconsider your words as they require more thought.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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They aren't lost on me... I don't minsinterpret them, nor do I imbue a sense of righousness to them. I take the story for the story and nothing more. As in... I take it for the expression that is conveyed... and not as an absolute truth.
That can't be said for everyone... look at what some Philosophical/Religious documents have caused. I'm merely suggesting that it be taught in a different form rather then an "ultimate truth/reality" of a situation... as I'm sure you know just as I do what that could/has/does lead up to.
How do you propose this? Having an illustrative example is the clearest and most logical means of teaching principles.
Teach on the basis of principle... and not abstract anything to the degree that it is an absolution. If one needs a story/myth of some form of a concrete correlation then.... provide that to them, but do not, and I mean do not express it as it were a fact. I tend to think better in terms of concepts, and of abstractions thereof. Some need concrete support to ground them on the foundation of a principle.
The basis of our stories is supposed to impart a meaning a truth as it were from the teachings... it shouldn't be taken, nor interpreted to the degree that it is given as a truth... rather it should be taught as in some form of truth can be derived from it.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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"Teach on the basis of principle... and not abstract anything to the degree that it is an absolution. If one needs a story/myth of some form of a concrete correlation then.... provide that to them, but do not, and I mean do not express it as it were a fact. I tend to think better in terms of concepts, and of abstractions thereof. Some need concrete support to ground them on the foundation of a principle."
Your talking about boring people to death.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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 I tend to think better when something is put blunt and is in my face rather then provide a long overdrawn example as to what is attempting to be conveyed. This is America though, I suppose you're right.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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I must be dense as I still miss the point.
Let's take the mythical Christ or Hercules, both born of God and woman. As I am born only of man and woman, I can never aspire to their heights and can only feel envy and awe.
King Arthur? I have trouble pulling on my socks never mind a sword from granite? Do I have a Merlin to guide me? NooooOOOooo! Same with Castaneda Or Adams or Millman or Skywalker. I have never encountered a Brujo or guru or Yoda or shaman to spoon-feed me advanced wisdom, what can I learn? Once again I feel unworthy and non-special for being unable to attract such a learned being into my world.
I recently read a book on mystical experience. It was not a "How-To" manual yet was supposed to inspire even while saying mystical experience comes when it comes. Not sure what I got from that except that the author said she was not special, yet was bestowed with grace.
Now I just feel like a total loser.  *Swami gets some some whiskey and a rope*
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: Swami]
#3921905 - 03/15/05 04:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am not talking about having a mystical experience or gurus. I am talking about using stories to preserve and spread useful information. You are getting hung up on the "story" part and disregarding the information. Surely you were read Aesop's fables as a child. They always have a useful moral lesson that transcends the culture that created it. Once again read "Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With A Thousand Faces". Mr Campbell is much more eloquent than I and goes into much more detail. It is interesting that he was an atheist.
Your comment about mystical experience is true according to my experience. When the spirit calls you can answer or disregard...and for many the call never comes. It is according to the path we feel we must tread. Looking back at my life I see I have primed myself for mystical experience since early childhood so when I felt the call (and called I was) I answered. I do realize that my preconcieved notions and background were conducive to such an event. Maybe I am just a romantic with an overactive imagination. That is cool as well.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
"paging joseph campbell"
Unfortunately Mr. Campbell had no belief in a God or afterlife, and I have no reason to think he has changed his mind.
no, but he had a great belief in "the power of myth"...
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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