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Anonymous

Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: gray1]
    #395041 - 09/15/01 12:53 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Gray
I am not saying that. I am saying I am responsible for my actions. The terrorists who went down with the planes are responsible for there actions. And America does stand for individual freedom. What the richest 1 percent do with our resources does not make me guilty. I would not die for there motives. My analogy about conspiracy, and linking backers or supporters to the event itself, is in total agreement with the concept of individual freedom and free will. I don't want to be held accountable for my governments actions, because I pay taxes. It was a group of individuals that commited these crimes. They acted of there own free will. This is the most treasured liberty of the free world. Living according to your FREE WILL. This is what people fight for, they don't fight because someone tells them to or pays them too. They fight because they feel like they should. These people we want live in every country, including our own. They are all individuals, united by a common cause, terrorism. But the majority of the thought going on here, is ignoring that they are individuals. Lumping them all together as one individual, guilt by association. This is the very rational that alot of us fight ever day. I don't want to stop smoking dope, because someone else has difficulty using. I don't want to hate Muslims, because a few extremists are doing HORRIFIC things. This country actually liked OBL before he turned his terror on us. He was liked when he was fighting the Soviet Union, he was liked when he was supporting the widows of soldiers lost fighting the invasion of Afghanistan, he was considered a humanitarian. Then he decided the USA was a colonialist country, like England, or France. He saw the PEOPLE of a dictatorship suffering because of the policies of that 1 percent richest Americans, with sanctions against Iraq. In essence we are now a threat to him, and his individual freedom. Does this even remotely justify the actions of any individual to do these things, absolutely not. Because in the end we are all individuals, and we do not control the actions of our governments. Even in the land of the free, your government does things that you disagree with, Why would it be any different in any other country. We elect our officials, most of these countries do not.
So I pray for myself, and for all humanity, that the actions of so few don't result in even further loss of life.
Do you honestly believe that you are responsible for the actions of anyone but yourself? This is the HORROR of killing innocent Americans, this is the HORROR of killing innocent Afganis. People seem to be under the notion that every person living in Afghanistan is guilty, because there corrupt government, like all governments, is not giving up the KNOWN terrorists. By that rational, it was in essence OK to attack the USA. You can't rationally have it both ways, you can't se3e yourself as an individual, but view everyone else as a group.
You are an individual, and they are all individuals, and the responsible individuals should continue to pay. I think the people who are running our country right now, Bush and friends, are entirely aware of this, and are going ahead with extreme caution, I respect this administration more and more every day. I think they understand the notion of individual responsibility, at least under this circumstance. They know that the average JOE living in Afghanistan has absolutely zero power of influence over his governments actions. So when they do make the links, and decide who else is guilty, our government can respond with complete accuracy. We don't intentionaly kill innocent people!!!
I do find it extremely hard to believe that the people on the other side of the fence, OUR ENEMIES, can't understand that we are a country of individuals, and beyond voting people into office, we have very little control over the policies they dictate. IF the targets were all MILITARY, it would have made sense at some level, but killing civilians is never a solution.



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Anonymous

Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: ]
    #395047 - 09/15/01 01:10 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

And CACA
That is exactly what I meant with my shroomery analogy. I do not want to be held responsible for the actions of others. I don't want to be attacked by force, because I post here, and someone might commit a crime with the information that is posted here. This is in complete agreement with the concept of FREE WILL. I am not responsible for anyones actions, except my own, even if I send money, send information, or even directly talk about illegal activity. I should not be held responsible for the actions of the "kid". I sometimes wonder how Charles Manson, and numerous mobsters are sitting in jail. Because they told people to do something. They did not do it!!! Now if they had held guns to the heads of their followers and said do it or your dead!!! Now that I could understand!! We are all individuals responsible for our own actions, that is all I am really saying. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING, I don't care if you agree or disagree, you are an individual too.



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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
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Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: ]
    #395169 - 09/15/01 04:04 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

uh... yeah this is all fine but I'm sick of arguing with people lacking foresight or hindsight HELLO you cannot infringe on other peoples' rights while exercising your rights. Stop trying to play devil's advocate. I understand what you are trying to say, ofcourse, but you're wrong. That is the exact same thing as saying "the devil shouldn't burn in hell". What are you trying to make everyone think backwards again? Do we need Sherlock Holmes out here? What is going on in your mind? What is the motive? The person who gets people to do this is responsible because he has a mouth and ideas in his head and he spreads this and he makes it happen. Without that person who makes it happen, those people probably would not have used their free will to do this. He uses his free will to make this happen, because he WANTS IT TO. Remember that there are various ways of controlling people also.



:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves ! Also, everything in the above post is entirely fictional, like PC !

Edited by CACA on 09/15/01 03:10 PM.



--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: CLuB99]
    #395209 - 09/15/01 05:18 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

****I NEVER STUDIED ENGLISH****

It shows

Am i running out of arguments? With you being an idiot? there is no argument..keep typing, with every keystroke you look even more like a fool

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleMcMan
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/05/00
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Loc: USA
Post deleted by users_request [Re: Innvertigo]
    #395314 - 09/15/01 07:38 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: McMan]
    #395394 - 09/15/01 09:19 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

i think you meant to respond to someone else. I know nothing of East Timor.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: CACA]
    #396528 - 09/17/01 09:58 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Your right CACA, I am wrong!!! KILL THEM ALL!!!!!
CACA for president, WORDS AND IDEAS are crimes!!! The devil made me do it!!! Who is thinking backwards here? I find it reassuring that individuals are responsible for others actions in your world. The ultimate victory of these terrorists, is the ability of so few to completely cause so many to forget what INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM is. To forget that individuals are responsible for their own actions.
If I give your family a million dollars, will you go bomb a church? If I threaten the lives of your family will you bomb that church? What scenario would cause you to bomb a church? Is there anything I could do to you to make you kill a bunch of innocent people? What control are you talking about? Isreal does exactly what you are talking about. They trace the chain of events, find out who directed the bombers, and they kill them. They do so avoiding as many civilian casualties as possible. Do I agree with this, no. Why you ask, because it has not and does not stop terrorism. If anything it perpetuates it. And like I stated before, the responsible party usually goes down with the act.
I guess you are also for outlawing guns, knives, or anything that could be used as a weapon. You also are for outlawing books and information, anything that might insight someone to do harm, or commit illegal acts.
And what was it you said, you cannot infringe on someones rights while acting out your own rights. Our own government does it every day, DRUG TESTING, OUTLAWING CONSUMPTION OF DRUGS, OUTLAWING SELF MEDICATION, TRIAL BY AMBUSH IN FEDERAL COURTS, ......... the list can go on and on. Look at are own court system and the past DOMESTIC Terrorist act in Oklahoma. You believe they acted alone, how about the original TRADE CENTER BOMBING. You do realize that a FEDERAL snitch helped build the bomb, and his supervising agents were aware that they were going to use it, and told him to precede forward, everything was under control. The feds also had a snitch inside the waco compound, and they were aware that the Davidians knew about the raid, but preceded forward anyways. Where does your responsibility chain start and stop? Who is ultimately responsible? Better yet, who ends up paying the price for your philosophy, I assure you it will be paid with yet more innocent lives!!!! AS will my philosophy. But at least in my world, you will still be free, and every individual will be held responsible for his own actions. There will be no guilt by association, you can say what ever you want in my world, I may not like it, or agree with it, some may even use the information in an extreme way, but I will not blame you for the actions of others, even if your power of speech is so eloquant as to insight rage and action on that rage.

Edited by Teonan on 09/17/01 09:42 AM.



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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
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Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: ]
    #396670 - 09/17/01 01:45 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

How much less can you understand an idea?

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves ! Also, everything in the above post is entirely fictional, like PC !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineCACA
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Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: ]
    #396678 - 09/17/01 01:52 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I never said that the government isn't fucked up. I know for a fact that it is. This doesn't mean that you should harm people. I would like to outlaw weapons. What do we need weapons for? You don't make any sense when you talk. You take one thing someone says and you twist it to the best of your ability. You're just like those people that say communism would work if not for the human factor. Since you're applying it to humans, it won't work right now, so, theoretically can be forgotten. Words and ideas are not the crime. I can't stop people from doing harmless things. When someone is stirring people to do things, its a different story. You are thinking backwards, only you didn't quite get why I said that or what backwards thinking was being addressed. You find something reassuring, so you cling to it. That is turning a blind eye. Your "philosophy" needs a couple of patches.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves ! Also, everything in the above post is entirely fictional, like PC !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
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Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: ]
    #396679 - 09/17/01 01:54 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I'm so fucking sick of you people that get "woken up" from doing mushrooms and so think you have something to say. You fucking people make me sick. Go be some dumb girl's boyfriend.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves ! Also, everything in the above post is entirely fictional, like PC !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineLucid420
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Registered: 09/10/01
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Loc: Houston, TX
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: CACA]
    #396689 - 09/17/01 02:17 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Given the fact that this is one of the longest threads I've seen here at shroomery.com. I think it's fair to say that this is at least an issue that concerns all of us. Yes this was an inevitable event but I can't say that I'm glad it happened b/c thousands of people died and if that puts a smile on your face, you should be burned along with those that were directly responsible. What I can do is try to make the best of it and realize that America is going to unite like it never has before. People from every ethnicity and background are going to stand shoulder to shoulder in defiance of these fuckers and we are going to be a stronger nation in the end.



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: What's this obssession with East Timor? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #396715 - 09/17/01 02:40 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Your're wellcome in Portugal bluemeanie and everybody else is, yes we have very nice chicks arround here, about the "naughty substances" we de-criminalised soft-drugs consuption a few months ago but we don't give a fuck because we were allways able to consume them with no problem, Portugal is the number one country on letting people do its life, so is no joke when i say that i smoke a joint at daylight on the streets, nobody gives a fuck, the police and the society in general are very compreensive, so as long you don't make shit you're just fine, our society gives the reponsability to each one.
As for East Timor goes i know the fucking story very well, the United States have allways sell weapons to the Indonesian governament, in fact it was 2 or 3 years ago that the portuguese diplomacy managed to convince some congresist to cut those sells and we did it, yes USA sold weapons, bullets, missiles airplanes, helicopters, they managed to give a hand to Suarto regime very well, it consisted on 25 years of terror and violence, why did the USA never protected the Timories ? Easy, no oil, no petroleum or whatever, they made it by selling weapons, the timories... fuck them, they were just a bunch of monkies ruled by some pseudo-comunist leader that now after 25 years is a fotographer, why Kwait and not Timor ? ANSWER THIS FUCKING QUESTION!!!!
I'm in deep sorrow for what happened to all US fellows, no human being can be responsible for it's government actions, i hate killings as anybody here SHOULD hate, but the american people must realized that you're controled by your own idealism, you can't make a distinction between your nation and your governament.

YOU are a great nation because you have very capable PEOPLE, capable of doing amazing things, yes i'm using this computer because of you, THANK YOU for promoting my inteligence but when you ask something in return your going down to the lowest levels, my ancesters discoverd half of the world using some instruments made by the arab people, should i ask you something for it ?, should the arabs ask me something for it? Would you like Osama ask you something for it ? Perhaps he did ask, that's why he's a scum . YOU have a semi-automated regime, your governament runs by itself allways bringing up all the nation and patriotism stuff, why can't you american people run by yourself, what's the fucking problem in putting you americans in the first place, NOT nation in the first place, PEOPLE in first place for gods sakes!!!! The nation says, lets nukem!! Yeah! and then what ? More planes going down arround the world ? But where ? Not only in the US for sure, it would be EVERYWHERE !!

Then who would be responsible, who would be responsible if a fucking bomb explodes in my country and kills all my family, YOU the individual or YOU the nation, Vietnam YOU didn't do it, Cambodja YOU didn't do it, Korea YOU didn't do it, Kwait YOU didn't do it, Yugoslavia YOU didn't do it, FBI, CIA and the nukes is what you believe in, now who's that YOU, the individual or the nation ? Who's responsable ? What makes your people more important than those inocents that will die in Afgenistan if you attack ? Are YOU atacking a nation or their people ? Stop making the american way the worlds way, there are many that still want their little hut in the woods instead this technocratic world that has been created by some, i support the american PEOPLE not the american governament, my heart is with you in this sad moment, BE STRONG and show your best, not your revenge!
BTW, it looks like i have to make a "sorry for my english" in this thread, so .. sorry for my english. PEOPLE FIRST , not the fucking system ruled by some, just make you nation be your people.

"WE DON'T SPEAK ANYMORE OF WAR!! WE DON'T SPEAK ANYMORE OF WAR!!!"

Peace,
MAIA


"Houston, we have a problem... shrooms are over "
=)Free&Spread the Spores(=
Support the FSR

Edited by MAIA on 09/17/01 01:59 PM.



--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
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Re: What's this obssession with East Timor? [Re: MAIA]
    #396720 - 09/17/01 02:45 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Don't have to be sorry for your English. If your English isn't perfect, it means you're bilingual, which is good, ofcourse. Nice post.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves ! Also, everything in the above post is entirely fictional, like PC !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineLucid420
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Registered: 09/10/01
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Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: What's this obssession with East Timor? [Re: MAIA]
    #397194 - 09/17/01 11:52 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Try putting yourself in America's shoes MAIA. What would you do if you saw 10,000 or so of your countrymen killed by someone else's twisted version of a political statement. Just like Bush said, "those who are responsible and those who harbor whoever was responsible will be punished." I didn't vote for Bush but I couldn't agree with that statement more. What would you have us do, turn the other cheek? Doing so would not only jeopardize American lives, but people all over the world as well. Americans have fought and died for what we are today. We are the greatest and most prosperous nation in the world because of our government and I fully trust them to handle this situation appropriately. Given we are not perfect, but who is?



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Anonymous

Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: CACA]
    #398908 - 09/20/01 07:36 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

First off, shrooms did not awaken me, I've been awake since I was concieved. I still just don't understand your argument, I guess. How do you consider spreading information a crime? If I spread it in the form of say anti-drug war literature, insighting people to commit the crime of possesion, this would be o.k, but if I insight them to blow up a building, this is wrong. I should be held liable for the second scenario, but not the first, or both, or neither. What are you saying?
I am simply saying, I DON"T THINK EITHER SHOULD BE A CRIME. What is a crime is possesing something illegal, and actually blowing up a building. This is backwards to you!!! But if I have not done either, I am not commiting a crime. So how do you justify holding me liable?




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Anonymous

Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: ]
    #398914 - 09/20/01 07:53 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Secondly, my girlfriend doesn't appreciate being called dumb.

As far as banning weapons, I would have to disagree here also. In complete agreement with my individual responsibility concept, and free will, WEAPONS DO NOT KILL, PEOPLE DO. The only weapons I would like to see banned are land mines. They have a nasty habit of remaining long after war has come to a close. Eventually killing and injuring long after the fact. This is about the only WEAPON that has a life of it's own.
And if you hate people who consume shrooms so much, why are you spending time at the shroomery? Does it make you feel superior to the rest of us, " the awakened ones" who are to ignorant to form ideas on our own, unlike you!!!
Who are you? Do you feel I am stupid because I don't draw conclusions, that you would draw. That I think individuals should be held responsible for their own actions, not the actions they insight in other people. Would you hold a person responsible for starving someone to death, if this person went on a fast to protest, and the death was a result of some inspired party to fast also. I just disagree with the whole conspiracy theory. I disagree. Don't worry though, my belief is the minority belief, so you have nothing to be angry about, and you can refrain from attacking me personally, and my girlfriend. I never called you stupid, because you disagreed. I respect your individualism, unlike you.



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OfflineCACA
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Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: ]
    #398959 - 09/20/01 09:38 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

All you are doing is making a pathetic baseless argument. Just stop already, you're embarassing yourself. You say that you've been "awake" since you were concieved, but you don't act like it at all. You are talking like some 15 year-old with time on his hands. I don't really care what anyone's girlfriend thinks about what I say. I have never heard an intelligent comment come from a girl's mouth- it is to my dismay that I can report this truthfully. So, you think it would be a good idea if we gave serial rapists a roomfull of their favorites and give a sociopath the license to kill ? Are you saying that it is a KID's fault and NOT the industry's fault that they are the way they are right now? You are the wave of the future. You are the type of idiot that will ruin humanity. Children aren't even fucking children, you piece of shit. Little girl, 8 and younger walking about in mini-skirts. Shame on you. SHAME on YOU. Would you also put a match next to a gas heater while you're standing next to it and if you lived, would you say, "It was the gas's fault that I got hurt." You won't do that, because you know that you are going to get hurt if you do. Your logic, your reasoning, is totally faulted and I hate to even get into specifics. Also, how about giving every country permission to launch nuclear strikes on the U.S. without having to live in fear of retaliation? Would that be our fault or theirs? What is it with you and "fault"? It would be OUR fault for inviting them and making a STUPID mistake of inviting it, bringing it upon ourselves. How can you continue to argue your argument? I hate arguing, but it is your kind of person that will destroy us all. Beyond that, who in China would be blamed for the nuclear strikes? Would it be the person who pressed the button or the person who gave the go ahead or the person who decided that they would take the opportunity?? Just shut up. And no, your assumption is wrong. I am not here because I like to feel above people. That is just like a person like yourself to think the worst of people. I am here, because I thought I would find lots of open-minded people and instead I found a bunch of people with nothing but the same thing to say all in the same voice. I am here because if I feel the need to, I would like to contribute to any post or to help and to learn. Who are you to question why I am here?

:frown: Time for a cigarette.

Edited by CACA on 09/20/01 08:40 AM.

Edited by CACA on 09/20/01 08:45 AM.



--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
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Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: CACA]
    #399442 - 09/20/01 09:14 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"I have never heard an intelligent comment come from a girl's mouth- it is to my dismay that I can report this truthfully. "

you're not around many girls then are you? or you just dont listen to them?



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OfflineCACA
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Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: MrKurtz]
    #399444 - 09/20/01 09:17 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

You are right. I don't hang around with many people, but I do have ears and eyes and I do know women in their 40's, women in their 30's and what not and they're just as stupid as the younger ones that I have known from highschool.

:frown: Time for a cigarette.


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: USA HAS GONE CRAZY - TERRORIST ATACKS!!!!! [Re: CACA]
    #399494 - 09/20/01 10:09 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

wow....and they think i'm hateful. shhheeesshh. Maybe you should hang out with smarter people then.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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