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OfflineAldous
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Debunkers of the world, unite !
    #3896561 - 03/10/05 06:35 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Please react if you feel sure there was no inside job on 9/11, I'm looking forward to it. I tried this subject in the other thread, but suddenly the debunkers had vanished. Nasty coincidence I guess, so here you have it again, in a brand new thread of its own: WTC7!!

I'll slightly elaborate on what I wrote in the other one.

WTC7, 47 stories high, fell neatly in its footprint at 5:20 PM on 9/11/2001, allegedly from 2 small fires. It looked every inch like controlled demolition. Just see for yourself (it's rather slow).




Show this footage to any expert, and he will call it a brilliant job. No building can fall perfectly straight if all of its foundation points don't snap at the exact same moment.

Now FEMA, which "investigated" every aspect of 9/11, was quite embarrassed with WTC7. Their report appeared in May of 2002, some 8 months after the events. The most specific thing they had to say about the causes of the collapse was this:
Quote:

The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue.


In normal language: we don't have a clue. This can only be explained assuming unacceptable hypotheses.
Pics show that WTC7 was suffering at least two minor fires, and that's it. Other similar buildings have been burning bottom to top for hours or even days on end, with huge flames; they were completely destroyed, but never collapsed. Their ruins still stood after the fire was extinguished (like in Madrid a few weeks ago).

In September 2002, probably realizing the controlled demolition was too obvious, the owner of the place admitted the building was "pulled" because it was already too damaged:
Quote:

I remember getting a call from the, uh, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "You know, we've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is, is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse.

Larry Silverstein, interviewed in "America Rebuilds", PBS
http://www.infowars.com/Video/911/wtc7_pbs.WMV




My first reaction would be: controlled demolition indeed... but can you decide to "pull" a building in the matter of a few hours? The world experts on controlled demolition, although they'd love it, think not. This is from their website, they're boasting about how fast they can act:

Quote:

Half of the 17-story Sheikh A. Alakl Apartment Building in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia collapsed when portions of the new reinforced concrete facility were overloaded during final stages of construction. At the request of Bechtel, Controlled Demolition Incorporated?s team mobilized to the site in less than 24 hours, prepared the central-core, flat slab, reinforced concrete structure in another 27 hours and put the balance of the building on the ground with absolute safety just 96 hours after the start of demolition preparations. The "arm?s-length" nature of Controlled Demolition Incorporated?s operations, combined with our in-house engineering, rapid response capabilities and international network of resources make Controlled Demolition Incorporated the natural choice in dealing with structural emergencies, worldwide.




So that was 17 stories in 96 hours. How could they have done the same for a 47-story building, in the midst of chaos, fires and panic on 9/11, in a matter of 6 hours at the very most? Hell, WTC7 most probably couldn't even be accessed after the North Tower collapsed, let alone that firefighters could study its foundations, calculate the necessary amount of explosives, plant and detonate them. I'd think they had something else to do that day. And the area was evacuated anyway, so the "loss of life" argument doesn't stand.

Another thing: if this little dialogue between Silverstein and the FDNY had happened elsewhere than in Silversteins imagination, surely there would be other sources. The firefighters would have come up with the story or at least have confirmed it, and FEMA would have found a plausible cause of collapse to put in its report. But what FEMA probably realizes, and Silverstein doesn't, is that demolition by explosives takes time and good conditions to plan.


So you tell me, but I can't find any other answer than this: the collapse of WTC7 was due to controlled demolition by explosives, but it was prepared well in advance. By Saudi terrorists...? Hmmmm...  :rolleyes:

Now be rational and think for yourselves, I have a few questions for you guys:
- what do you think caused WTC7 to collapse?
- if it was controlled demolition, how and when was it planned, and by whom?
- if it was not, explain how it could fall so neatly from small irregular fires without a major blast.
- considering all of the above, explain away the hypothesis of an inside job.

Thank you for your attention. I know some of you agree with my doubts, but I would especially like to hear from the usual debunkers.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Aldous]
    #3896588 - 03/10/05 07:12 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

This has to be the millionth thread on the same subject. it's becoming quite tiring. Circumstantial evidence, Speculation and guessing doesn't equal evidence.


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3896655 - 03/10/05 08:23 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Wrong, WTC7 has only been marginally mentioned here, let alone addressed.

Just answer the questions, even briefly, that's all I ask.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Aldous]
    #3896678 - 03/10/05 08:50 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

...It's tired, people probably aren't answering your questions because it's the same answers that were given for the other thousand threads.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Aldous]
    #3896693 - 03/10/05 09:10 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

> No building can fall perfectly straight if all of its foundation points don't snap at the exact same moment.

You cannot prove a negative. This is a misleading, false, and pointless statement. I have seen plenty of demolitions where a large building falls straight down into its foundation without all of the foundation points snapping at the same time. The demolition is designed this way so that as one edge of the building starts to drop, it pulls the rest of the building with it.


> How could they have done the same for a 47-story building, in the midst of chaos, fires and panic on 9/11, in a matter of 6 hours at the very most?

Because they didn't have to worry about the safety of the neighboring buildings, evacuate the people, etc... Oh, and they didn't have to travel half way around the world either... kinda helps speed things up when the problem is in your own backyard.

> ... firefighters could study its foundations, calculate the necessary amount of explosives, plant and detonate them.

Why explosives? The building was already damaged... simply knock out a few support points and it drops... not very clean, not very safe, but we are in a hurry here.

Why firefighters to study the building, calculate the explosives needed, plant the explosives and detonate them? I usually don't ask a firefighter to fix my toilet when it leaks... I call a plumber.

> that demolition by explosives takes time and good conditions to plan.

Again, the explosives argument... why explosives?

Ok... on to your questions:

> what do you think caused WTC7 to collapse?

Gravity. I suspect the building was damaged beyond repair and was a safety hazard to the rescue operations at the site. Most likely the building was pulled down, not blown up.

> if it was controlled demolition, how and when was it planned, and by whom?

Planned and performed by engineers that were on sight after the 9/11 attack. I am guessing this is a collection of city engineers, fema/government people, and probably a few professionals that were in the area as well. The ultimate approval was probably given by Silverstein, though the government might have done it regardless to ensure safety of the site.

> if it was not, explain how it could fall so neatly from small irregular fires without a major blast.

The blast from explosives doesn't "blow up a building" like a terrorist truck bomb. Directed explosives are used to cut through foundation support members allowing the weight of the building to pull itself down. A bulldozer could just as easily break these support members... though I wouldn't want to be the driver of that dozer. Demolition companies have remote control dozers to destroy support members in hard to reach places before the final explosives are placed. I doubt the fires were causal, but this is a guess.

> considering all of the above, explain away the hypothesis of an inside job.

The burden of proof is on you, not me. A bit of confusion between the people that spoke with the press and a bunch of fantasy about how building demolitions work is not enough to convince me that there is any kind of conspiracy here.

*sigh* what a waste of time....


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Seuss]
    #3896763 - 03/10/05 10:02 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

*sigh* what a waste of time....




that was sort of my point. well put.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleusefulidiot
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Aldous]
    #3896857 - 03/10/05 10:43 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Don't you know anything..them Arabs did it. End of story.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3896886 - 03/10/05 10:54 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The tsunami was a hoax.


Fortunately for Cartoon Network they had already changed the name of their show "Toonami".


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3896903 - 03/10/05 11:00 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Nature is a myth, there's always a conspiracy.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Seuss]
    #3897348 - 03/10/05 01:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
You cannot prove a negative. This is a misleading, false, and pointless statement. I have seen plenty of demolitions where a large building falls straight down into its foundation without all of the foundation points snapping at the same time. The demolition is designed this way so that as one edge of the building starts to drop, it pulls the rest of the building with it.



Let's put it another way: such a straight collapse by mere fire is impossible, but you agree with that, since you also opt for purposeful demolition.
Quote:

Oh, and they didn't have to travel half way around the world either... kinda helps speed things up when the problem is in your own backyard.


Those 96 hours they were boasting about were "after the start of demolition preparations", not "after notification".
Quote:

Why explosives? The building was already damaged... simply knock out a few support points and it drops... not very clean, not very safe, but we are in a hurry here.


Uh...?? with a hammer?
Why explosives? Because they're the fastest, cleanest and cheapest, and probably only realistically usable tool to do just that.
Quote:

Why firefighters to study the building, calculate the explosives needed, plant the explosives and detonate them? I usually don't ask a firefighter to fix my toilet when it leaks... I call a plumber.


So do I, but they were the ones on the spot, and besides... I'm not the one who says the firefighters did the job, Larry Silverstein says so, so ask him.
Quote:

I suspect the building was damaged beyond repair and was a safety hazard to the rescue operations at the site.


Consistency please. You just said: "they didn't have to worry about the safety of the neighboring buildings, evacuate the people, etc..." There was no-one left to save there, there were no rescue operations going on anymore at 5:20 PM. They could as well destroy the building the next day, why the hurry?
Quote:

Planned and performed by engineers that were on sight after the 9/11 attack.


Why is Larry so sure the firefighters did it then? Are you in a better position than he is to determine that?
Quote:

I am guessing this is a collection of city engineers, fema/government people, and probably a few professionals that were in the area as well.


No offense, but your guesses have no value whatsoever here. But you do argue that FEMA could have done it without remembering it afterward, is that right? Hmmm, somehow I doubt it.
Quote:

A bulldozer could just as easily break these support members... though I wouldn't want to be the driver of that dozer. Demolition companies have remote control dozers to destroy support members in hard to reach places before the final explosives are placed. I doubt the fires were causal, but this is a guess.


So you argue that a bulldozer of a few tens of tons can cut through the foundations of a 47-story building of a few million tons... a remote control bulldozer, that is. Hmmm, back to physics class, or straight to the tinfoil hat brigade?
And you know how I feel about your wild guesses.
Quote:

A bit of confusion between the people that spoke with the press and a bunch of fantasy about how building demolitions work is not enough to convince me that there is any kind of conspiracy here.


The fantasy is yours, not mine (remember the foundation-cutting remote control bulldozers?). As for the "bit of confusion", don't you think FEMA could have seen through that in its 8-month quest for the truth?


Wow guys, I know this is only the beginning, but I must admit I'm disappointed. So few answers (and so weak, at that), so many shots at the messenger.

C'mon, you can do better!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Aldous]
    #3897466 - 03/10/05 01:53 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wow guys, I know this is only the beginning, but I must admit I'm disappointed. So few answers (and so weak, at that), so many shots at the messenger.

C'mon, you can do better!





This argument's been done more times than Maria Carey. Most are tired of saying the same things. That's why you're getting so few responses.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (03/10/05 02:04 PM)


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3897511 - 03/10/05 02:03 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You suck at debunking. I for one am not tired of hearing these arguments, because they have yet to be disproven.



Burn him! Buuuuuuurn the messanger!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3897523 - 03/10/05 02:05 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

ofcourse you're not sick of it, your tin foil hat keeps you interested.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3897543 - 03/10/05 02:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Keep the personal attacks coming! It only serves to show what an obfuscator you are.  If you have anything of actual value to contribute I'll be glad to respond in kind, but until then you can :blowme:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3897560 - 03/10/05 02:12 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

that wasn't even close to a personal attack. :yawn:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3897566 - 03/10/05 02:14 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Fine. It was a sarcastic statement directed at me. Call it what you want to, whatever you need to do to save your dignity. Anything important to say, or are you going to keep talking out of your rectum?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3897582 - 03/10/05 02:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

wow, that's deep. You sure burned me.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3897592 - 03/10/05 02:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you for proving my point again.  You are truly a useless memeber of this forum.

Why don't you start debunking instead of bitching and whining? :bitch:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3897656 - 03/10/05 02:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Thank you for proving my point again. You are truly a useless memeber of this forum.




seeing that you are basically a nobody, I'll take that as a compliment

Quote:

Why don't you start debunking instead of bitching and whining?




It's been done already many times. The only one bitching and whining is yourself. I'd much rather bring up the futility of an otherwise drab thread.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Debunkers of the world, unite ! [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3897670 - 03/10/05 02:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well thank you for that carefully crafted statement. I still do not see anything of value in your posts. So you registered here before me, and that makes me a nobody? To think some idiot called you mature in your ratings.

Distract, obfuscate, bury the arguement all you want. It is not going to go away like magic.


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